Partial preterisims and revelation chapter by chapter part 1

Curtis · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
This is a good review I came across and although I don’t agree with every detail it is pretty close to what I believe

PP in Revelation

Chapter 1: Jesus appears to John, to give exhortation to the seven churches. The “coming of the Son of Man” is not referring to the Second Coming, but to the “judgment coming” of 70 AD, which John says was targeted against “the tribes of the Land” (the tribes of Israel).

Chapter 2-3: Jesus has John write seven letters to seven churches in Asia (near the island of Patmos where John was). The seven letters draw upon imagery from seven subsequent eras of Biblical history. The theme of each subsequent letter also alludes to a section of the Revelation itself.

Chapter 4: John is taken, in vision, to heaven. He sees the throne of God, the four “living creatures” (the cherubim/seraphim), and the 24 elders (who symbolically represent the whole Church).

Chapter 5: John sees God holding the scroll of the New Covenant. It is sealed with seven seals, which was recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. This scroll of the New Covenant is the will of Jesus Christ himself, who ascends to heaven and takes the scroll to open it. (30 AD)

Chapter 6: John sees the first six seals of the scroll broken open. Each seal draws a parallel to the prophecies of Christ in the Olivet Discourse, and to the Covenant curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. These seals herald the overarching series of events that take place in the first-century, culminating in the war of Rome upon Judea. (30-70 AD)

Chapter 7: John sees the whole Church (the great multitude), along with the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolically represented as a group of 144,000. The twelve tribes of Israel are named, but rearranged for symbolic purposes. Judah is placed at the first of the list, because Jesus is the “Lion of Judah”. Dan is removed from the list because Genesis 49 calls him a “serpent”, who is the enemy of the Church in the Revelation. Dan is replaced by Manasseh, similar to how Judas was replaced by Matthias. They are sealed with the seal of God, to show that they are protected from the destruction during the Jewish-Roman War. (67-70 AD)

Chapter 8: John sees the seventh seal broken open. The New Covenant has been fully established, and God’s wrath upon apostate Old Covenant Israel is fully poured out. John’s visions start over, to show him the event leading up to the Jewish-Roman War from another perspective, via seven trumpets. The first four trumpets are blown, depicting the destruction that took place in Judea through plagues, famines, false teachings, etc.

Chapter 9: John sees the fifth trumpet blown. The pagan Romans, symbolized as locusts, invade Judea. They torment the Christ-rejecting Jews for five months (May-September 66 AD), inciting them to rebel against the Roman Empire. John sees the sixth trumpet blown. Roman armies stationed at the Euphrates River in Syria march on to Judea, straight to Jerusalem (Late 66 AD) where they kill numerous Christ-rejecting Jews.

Chapter 10: John has a vision of an angel. The angel symbolically depicts the uniting of the Jews (the Land) and the Gentiles (the Sea), and declares the “mystery of God” to be almost complete. [Romans 11.25; Ephesians 3.4-6; Colossians 1.27] He gives John a “little scroll” to eat and prophesy, a symbolic representation of John being given the Revelation itself.

Chapter 11: John is told to measure the Temple of God, which is the Body of Christ, the Church. [John 2.19-21; 1 Corinthians 3.16; Ephesians 2.19-22] The “outer court” of the temple and the city of Jerusalem (symbolic representations of apostate Israel) are left to the Gentiles (the Romans) to trample upon for 42 months. (February 67 – August 70 AD) John sees two witnesses (symbolic representations of the entire Church) persecuted by “the beast” (Rome) and “the great city” Jerusalem (apostate Israel). They are depicted as being “conquered” by Rome, but are resurrected and taken to heaven, a depiction of the Church’s victory in Christ. “The great city” Jerusalem is destroyed. The seventh trumpet is blown, and the Kingdom of God comes upon the world, and apostate Israel is destroyed, vindicating the righteous dead.

Chapter 12: John’s visions start over. A “woman” (natural Israel) gives birth to a “male child” (Christ) despite the opposition of the dragon (Satan). (Circa 4 BC) Christ is taken up to God’s throne (symbolically representing his victory upon the cross), and Satan and the fallen angels are exiled from heaven because of the power of Christ’s sacrifice (symbolically depicted as a war between the righteous angels, led by Michael, and wicked angels, led by Satan). (30 AD) The dragon attempts to destroy the woman (Satan’s attempts to destroy the Jewish apostles when they founded the Church), but fails. (30-35 AD) He goes on to make war upon “the rest of the woman’s offspring” (the Church as it grew to include more members, particularly the Gentiles). (35-64 AD)

Chapter 13: Satan gives his power to the Roman Empire and its Emperors (depicted as a sea-beast with seven heads). John gives a prophecy about the Empire’s death and subsequent resurrection that took place following Nero’s suicide. (68-69 AD) John describes the present persecution of the Christians by the Roman Empire, prophesying that it would last for 42 months. (November 64 – June 68 AD) John sees apostate Israel (depicted as an earth-beast disguised as a lamb) ally itself with the Roman Empire in this persecution. Apostate Israel’s false prophets perform false miracles in order to deceive people into rejecting Christ and following Caesar. (30-67 AD) The “mark of the beast” is Hebrew gematria that codifies the name of Nero Caesar into the number 666. The name is not believed to have been codified because John was afraid of persecution (he was already being persecuted), but because of the symbolism behind the number 666. The “mark” is not a literal tattoo, but refers to how apostate Israel required its opponents to submit to the Roman Emperors or face persecution. Anyone who took the mark was spared from the wrath of Rome and apostate Israel.

Chapter 14: John sees the 144,000, representing the whole Church, standing upon Mount Zion with Christ, a symbolic depiction that the Church will overcome the persecution of the Roman Empire and apostate Israel. John sees a “soul harvest” upon the earth by Christ, a symbolic representation of Christ’s divine protection of his followers during the wrath that God. Another “soul harvest” takes place, this time resulting in God’s wrath being poured out upon apostate Israel depicted as a “great winepress of the wrath of God”. John sees blood-wine flow out of the winepress, spreading for 1600 stadia. This is the approximate length of the Land of Israel; John is seeing a symbolic representation of God’s wrath being poured out upon the entire nation of apostate Israel. (67-70 AD)

Chapter 15: John’s visions start over. He sees seven bowls containing seven plagues, ready to be poured out upon apostate Israel.

Chapter 16: The seven plagues (summarizing the events of the Jewish-Roman War: 67-70 AD) are poured out, intentionally alluding to the ten plagues of Egypt. [Deuteronomy 28.27,60] Satan, the Roman Empire, and apostate Israel incite each other into war at “Armageddon”. The word literally means “Mountain of Megiddo”. This location does not literally exist, but is a symbolic representation of the Church’s salvation (the symbol of the “mountain”) being founded upon the destruction of God’s enemies (symbolized by Megiddo, which has a history of God’s enemies being destroyed there). [Luke 21.20,28,31] Jerusalem “the great city” is “split into three parts”, corresponding to the three factions of Zealots that took over the city in 67 AD, ultimately being the reason why the city was conquered by the Romans in 70 AD.

Chapter 17: John’s visions start over. He sees the harlot “Babylon the great”, which he is explicitly told is a symbolic representation of “the great city” Jerusalem. The harlot is “drunk with the blood of the saints”, showing Jerusalem’s guilt of persecuting the Church. The harlot is allied with the scarlet beast, showing apostate Israel’s alliance with the Roman Empire. John is told that the seven heads represent seven kings; these are the first seven emperors of the Roman Empire, beginning with Julius Caesar. This results in the sixth king being Nero Caesar, who was singled out by John’s prophecies in Revelation 13. The scarlet beast itself is the “eighth” king. The number 8 is the symbolic numeral of resurrection; hence the beast (the Roman Empire) is prophesied to die and resurrect, corresponding directly to the “mortal wound” that the beast receives and heals from in Revelation 13. (68-69 AD) The Roman Empire is described as attempting to destroy the Church, but failing (symbolically depicted as the beast warring upon the Lamb). (64-68 AD) In anger at failing to destroy the Church, the Roman Empire turns vengeance upon apostate Israel, the harlot, and destroys her. (67-70 AD)

Chapter 18: John records a lament by the world over Jerusalem’s death. He ends the lament with the statement that “in her was found the blood of … all who have been slain on earth”, directly linking to Christ’s statement that Jerusalem held the guilt for “all the righteous blood shed on earth”.

Revelation was written around 90 AD, a very inconvenient fact for preterists.

It was hardly predicting 70 AD events in 90 AD.

Marty fox · Aug 20, 2021

Curtis said:
Revelation was written around 90 AD, a very inconvenient fact for preterists.

It was hardly predicting 70 AD events in 90 AD.

That is one view but many disagree as nobody actually knows when it was written

marks · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
Because People think that it is 12000 male virgin Jewish men from each tribe of Israel who take the gospel to the world when the bible doesn’t say that at all.

I'm not saying they take the Gospel to the world. No need to add what I don't say, and then say that's wrong. That's the "Straw Man".

I'm saying they are 12,000 from each of 12 tribes, 144,000 Jewish men who have not yet had sex.

Marty fox said:
The church is called the bride of the lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all female.

The church is called the bride of the Lamb by the church, but not in the Bible. Yet, that's a different matter.

RE the 144,000, the nouns and pronouns used are all masculine. For a mixed group, they should be neuter. And in saying they had not defiled themselves with women, that also agrees with this.

Marty fox said:
I believe that they are symbolic of the church which came through the 12 tribes and the 12 deciples 12x12=144 and the thousand symbolic for many

And many people believe that also. Still, there are many who do not. So don't we go to Scripture for the answer? Where in the Bible does it tell us these are not actually 144,000 Jewish men? Where does it tell us what they otherwise represent? If you do not have that, then it's just more people with more opinions, but no Scriptural substance.

Marty fox said:
What is the reason for mentioning them If it is a literal 144000 Jewish virgin men when all it does is mention them sealed by God and standing in heaven before the throne? Why would they be separated from the other saints mentioned Revelation when it doesn’t show them doing any special purposes?

If you don't understand the reason, does that mean it can't still happen the way described? I have my own view on that if you are interested. Whether my idea is correct or not, that doesn't mean God can't or won't do exactly as described.

Marty fox said:
The reason that they are mentioned is because they represent the church who are sealed with protection from Gods wrath

And in what way do they show that? Which "spiritual tribe" are you? Wouldn't saying that the church is sealed with protection from God's wrath be a more effective way to communicate that? Aren't there many many equally plain statements in the Bible, and in the Revelation? Why should we think that messages have to be encoded?

What would God have to say if He wanted to communicate that He was having sealed 144,000 actual Jewish male virgins?

Much love!

marks · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
Why would they be separated from the other saints mentioned Revelation when it doesn’t show them doing any special purposes?

They are the "first fruits".

An interesting thing to say, when you think about it!

Firstfruits of what?

Jesus is the first fruits in rising from the dead.

The early church was the firstfruits of the Gospel.

What would the 144,000 be the "first fruits" of?

Immediately after the church is raptured. Before the 70th week begins. No one on earth in that moment serves Christ, trusts in God. 144,000 Jewish men are sealed by an angel with the seal of the Living God. The firstfruits of when all Israel shall be saved, following the full number of the gentiles.

Much love!

Ronald David Bruno · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
First it’s not even the 12 tribes of Israel because the tribe of Dan is replaced with the tribe of Manasseh. This is because Dan was called a serpent

And? Judas was replaced too.

Marty fox said:
The bible doesn’t even say that they are men just that they are virgins which stands for purity because Jesus makes us pure. The church is called the bride of the lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all female

Yes is does. "They have not defiled themselves with women." Did you catch that in there?

Marty fox said:
Just as John hears of the lion of Judah he then looks and sees the slain lamb John also hears of the 144000 he then sees the great multitude from every nation.

There is a distinction between the two. The Multitude in heaven, no one can number - billions. Yet the 144, 000 is specific.

Marty fox said:
I believe that they are symbolic of the church which came through the 12 tribes and the 12 deciples 12x12=144 and the thousand symbolic for many

Oh I get it. You combine your theology with 4th grade math and come up with truth.

Marty fox said:
What is the reason for mentioning them If it is a literal 144000 Jewish virgin men when all it does is mention them sealed by God and standing in heaven before the throne? Why would they be separated from the other saints mentioned Revelation when it doesn’t show them doing any special purposes?

This is conjecture, I can't prove it, but I do not think Israel ( referred to in Rom. 11) will be grafted into the Body until after they see Christ coming in the clouds. It could ne moments after we are taken, the same day ...? Certainly not 7 years later. You see, since I do not believe in the Pre-trib. view, I don't accept the gap theory either. The 490 years prophecy pointed only to Christ's first coming.
Anyways, moving forward, Some people are persuaded by the Two Witnesses testimony, who evangelize the Jews during this time and others on the planet as well. But many are still not convinced, on the fence, until they see Christ and then they mourn and believe. So those left behind after the rapture who realize their error, have not taken the mark of the Beast and believe ... will
repopulate Jerusalem and the world during the Millennial Kingdom. So 144k virgin women would have to be available within that remnant Israel. Then after the 1000 years their offspring will be tested once again.

Ronald David Bruno · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
That is one view but many disagree as nobody actually knows when it was written

The important and very crucial factor helpful in interpreting the Book of Revelation correctly is the date that it was written. there is confident agreement by a majority of scholars that put the date that John wrote this book around A. D. 95
There are several reasons for this. A letter written around A. D. 180 by Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple and successor of John) states that "pronouncing the name of the Antichrist would be incurring a risk and if it were necessary at the time it was written, it would have been revealed by Christ." They did not know the name of Antichrist. If it was Nero in their past, then they would have stated it. Nero was an antichrist. All the people in history who have persecuted Christians or create lies about Christ are antichrists as well. But Nero was only small change in comparison to the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation period. Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Eusibius all support the date of Revelation given by Irenaeus which was around the end of the Domitian's reign.
Did you get who Irenaeus was? He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, who wrote Revelation. Don't you think that he knew the date Revelation was written? Do you know your grandfather, what he did and when he did it, especially if he did something historical? This is equivalent to the grandson of Beethoven knowing when grandpa wrote his first symphony, in 1800.
Further info:
Smyrna was not mentioned anywhere else in scripture suggesting that it was a newer church which was started late in the first century.
Polycarp was said to be the Bishop of Smyrna and born around 70 A. D. Since he was a disciple and successor of John, then this church began decades after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Finally, Polycarp said that no church in Smyrna existed in A. D. 67.
Not convinced yet? There's more.
If John wrote Revelation before A.D. 70, it would overlap Paul's letter to Timothy who was in Ephesus at the time.
The problems Jesus points out in Revelation concerning Ephesus and Laodicea are not evident in Paul's letters.
John probably did not move to Ephesus until after Paul and Peter were martyred. Nero killed Christians and their prophets including Paul and Peter. That was his style. He would have also killed John if he was around.
But John became banished to Patmos. That was Domitian's style of punishment.

And all you can say is "nobody actually knows". Preterists don't want to know, they discard any evidence that works against their view. It is like what we see the Left-Wing Media and government doing today. Ouch, it you are a Left- Winger! Don't want to get political, really. But it is interesting when you find out about people with opposite views on religious topics, usually they are on the opposite sides in politics too. And don't mention anything negative about Trump, I will slam dunk you hard! Just kidding. No, if you are really a Democrat, I will probably end my dialogue with you, because there is this impenetrable wall there that separates us. It's beyond us really, it's supernatural in scope. We war not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities of darkness. The world is now controlled by dark forces.

Truth7t7 · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
That is one view but many disagree as nobody actually knows when it was written

The Testimony Of The Early Church Fathers Below Would Show Your Claim Is False, Emperor Domitian 81-96AD Puts Preterism's 66-70AD Fulfillment In The Waste Basket

Wikipedia: Domitian (/dəˈmɪʃən, -iən/; Latin: Domitianus; 24 October 51 – 18 September 96) was Roman emperor from 81 to 96. He was the son of Vespasian and the younger brother of Titus

THE ARGUMENTS FOR AN A.D. 95 AUTHORSHIP

The evidence for the Book of Revelation being written in A.D. 95 includes-

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30).

The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42)

Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

Zao is life · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
John hears of the lion of Judah he then looks and sees the slain lamb John also hears of the 144,000 he then sees the great multitude from every nation.

I believe that they are symbolic of the church which came through the 12 tribes and the 12 deciples 12x12=144 and the thousand symbolic for many

What is the reason for mentioning them If it is a literal 144000 Jewish virgin men when all it does is mention them sealed by God and standing in heaven before the throne? Why would they be separated from the other saints mentioned Revelation when it doesn’t show them doing any special purposes?

The reason that they are mentioned is because they represent the church who are sealed with protection from Gods wrath

I agree with the above, but not with 98% of the rest. I don't agree at all about the "it (the Revelation) was all about 70 A.D (or A.D 30 - A.D 70)".

Marty fox said:
Chapter 4: John is taken, in vision, to heaven. He sees the throne of God, the four “living creatures” (the cherubim/seraphim), and the 24 elders (who symbolically represent the whole Church).

Chapter 5: John sees God holding the scroll of the New Covenant. It is sealed with seven seals, which was recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. This scroll of the New Covenant is the will of Jesus Christ himself, who ascends to heaven and takes the scroll to open it. (30 AD)

I don't know anything about the seven seals being recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. It's slowly becoming amazing to me how Gentile Christians of 2,000 years later somehow have become such experts in 1st century Jewish customs. These days there is a 1st-century Jewish custom to suit every interpretation. I'd love to know who's manufacturing them all.

That being said, the rest of what you quoted regarding chapters 4 and 5 is true regardless of whether or not the entire Revelation is about A.D 30 - 70.

Marty fox said:
Chapter 6: John sees the first six seals of the scroll broken open. Each seal draws a parallel to the prophecies of Christ in the Olivet Discourse, and to the Covenant curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. These seals herald the overarching series of events that take place in the first-century, culminating in the war of Rome upon Judea. (30-70 AD)

Drawing a parallel of the seals to the Olivet Discourse but then dating it all to the events of A.D 30 - 70 ignores the fact that according to the Olivet Discourse, the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and the last 3.5 years or so until A.D 70 would have been marked by famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars going on in various places (and that's aside from the fact that the dsicples would have become hated by all nations because the gospel would have been preached to all nations by A.D70).

Marty fox said:
Chapter 7: John sees the whole Church (the great multitude), along with the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolically represented as a group of 144,000. The twelve tribes of Israel are named, but rearranged for symbolic purposes. Judah is placed at the first of the list, because Jesus is the “Lion of Judah”. Dan is removed from the list because Genesis 49 calls him a “serpent”, who is the enemy of the Church in the Revelation. Dan is replaced by Manasseh, similar to how Judas was replaced by Matthias. They are sealed with the seal of God.

Up to there you were doing fine, but then you added an interpretation:

Marty fox said:
to show that they are protected from the destruction during the Jewish-Roman War. (67-70 AD)

I see that by now, over 1,950 years later, some Christians of the 21st century are as good at date-setting for the events of the Revelation as they are experts in 1st-century Jewish customs. Why go into date-setting regarding the events of the Revelation? Is that what we are meant to do? The person you quoted has done the same thing with regard to the trumpets and onward.

Marty fox said:
Chapter 11: John is told to measure the Temple of God, which is the Body of Christ, the Church. [John 2.19-21; 1 Corinthians 3.16; Ephesians 2.19-22]

Started off so well with chapter 11..but then he went and called Jerusalem "holy":

Marty fox said:
The “outer court” of the temple and the city of Jerusalem (symbolic representations of apostate Israel) are left to the Gentiles (the Romans) to trample upon for 42 months. (February 67 – August 70 AD)

The word holy means to be set apart, to be sanctified. It's like a married (and faithful) woman. She is set apart for her husband. Christians are also sanctified by the Holy Spirit through their faith in Christ.

The Revelation does not call Jerusalem "the holy city". It calls the New Jerusalem the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and in Revelation 22:19.

The Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” (Revelation 11:8), and it's the same Jerusalem which Paul said is in bondage with her children (Galatians 4:25). It's highly unlikely that the Revelation, while calling the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, will call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in the same passage, especially since, as the person said, the temple is referring to the church/es.

I have taken the liberty to take out the unnecessary Preterist interpretations in the following:

Marty fox said:
Chapter 12: A “woman” (natural Israel) gives birth to a “male child” (Christ) despite the opposition of the dragon (Satan). (Circa 4 BC) Christ is taken up to God’s throne, and Satan and the fallen angels are exiled from heaven because of the power of Christ’s sacrifice (circa 30 AD, some say 33 AD).

The dragon attempts to destroy the woman (Satan’s attempts to destroy the Jewish apostles when they founded the Church), but fails. He goes on to make war upon “the rest of the woman’s offspring” (the Church as it grew to include more members, particularly the Gentiles).

And the dragon's war against “the rest of the woman’s offspring” has never stopped since then and will not stop until Christ returns, according to numerous statements by the apostles in the New Testament where they warn and exhort the saints in this regard.

The amount of eisegesis that this person produced in his summary of the Revelation (reading his own interpretations into what is written) is phenomenal.

Ronald David Bruno · Aug 20, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Drawing a parallel of the seals to the Olivet Discourse but then dating it all to the events of A.D 30 - 70 ignores the fact that according to the Olivet Discourse, the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and the last 3.5 years or so until A.D 70 would have been marked by famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars going on in various places (and that's aside from the fact that the dsicples would have become hated by all nations because the gospel would have been preached to all nations by A.D70)

Vs. 14 is key. "The Gospel will be preached to the entire world and then the end will come." That surely did not happen but we are about at the precipise. It has been preached to every nation.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's highly unlikely that the Revelation, while calling the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, will call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in the same passage, especially since, as the person said, the temple is referring to the church/es.

That is one I missed. Excellent point.

Curtis · Aug 20, 2021

Marty fox said:
That is one view but many disagree as nobody actually knows when it was written

No, that’s the scholarly consensus, but preterists are forced to claim it was written before 70 AD.

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
Vs. 14 is key. "The Gospel will be preached to the entire world and then the end will come." That surely did not happen but we are about at the precipise. It has been preached to every nation.

That is one I missed. Excellent point.

Or was it?

Mt 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This shows that the disciples were asking about the end of the temple sacrificial age as the whole world was preached to before 70AD .
Paul says the gospel was preached to the whole known world in

Romans Ch 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world

and
Ch10:17-18
,17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

Paul also mentions it in
Colossians Ch 1:6
6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

and Ch 1:23
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant
.
Acts chapter 2:5
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

This verse shows that Jews from all over the world heard the gospel in their own tongue and could take it back to their own countries and share the good news.

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree with the above, but not with 98% of the rest. I don't agree at all about the "it (the Revelation) was all about 70 A.D (or A.D 30 - A.D 70)".

I don't know anything about the seven seals being recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. It's slowly becoming amazing to me how Gentile Christians of 2,000 years later somehow have become such experts in 1st century Jewish customs. These days there is a 1st-century Jewish custom to suit every interpretation. I'd love to know who's manufacturing them all.

That being said, the rest of what you quoted regarding chapters 4 and 5 is true regardless of whether or not the entire Revelation is about A.D 30 - 70.

Drawing a parallel of the seals to the Olivet Discourse but then dating it all to the events of A.D 30 - 70 ignores the fact that according to the Olivet Discourse, the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and the last 3.5 years or so until A.D 70 would have been marked by famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars going on in various places (and that's aside from the fact that the dsicples would have become hated by all nations because the gospel would have been preached to all nations by A.D70).

Up to there you were doing fine, but then you added an interpretation:

I see that by now, over 1,950 years later, some Christians of the 21st century are as good at date-setting for the events of the Revelation as they are experts in 1st-century Jewish customs. Why go into date-setting regarding the events of the Revelation? Is that what we are meant to do? The person you quoted has done the same thing with regard to the trumpets and onward.

Started off so well with chapter 11..but then he went and called Jerusalem "holy":

The word holy means to be set apart, to be sanctified. It's like a married (and faithful) woman. She is set apart for her husband. Christians are also sanctified by the Holy Spirit through their faith in Christ.

The Revelation does not call Jerusalem "the holy city". It calls the New Jerusalem the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and in Revelation 22:19.

The Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” (Revelation 11:8), and it's the same Jerusalem which Paul said is in bondage with her children (Galatians 4:25). It's highly unlikely that the Revelation, while calling the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, will call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in the same passage, especially since, as the person said, the temple is referring to the church/es.

I have taken the liberty to take out the unnecessary Preterist interpretations in the following:

And the dragon's war against “the rest of the woman’s offspring” has never stopped since then and will not stop until Christ returns, according to numerous statements by the apostles in the New Testament where they warn and exhort the saints in this regard.

The amount of eisegesis that this person produced in his summary of the Revelation (reading his own interpretations into what is written) is phenomenal.

Or was it?

Mt 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This shows that the disciples were asking about the end of the temple sacrificial age as the whole world was preached to before 70AD .
Paul says the gospel was preached to the whole known world in

Romans Ch 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world

and
Ch10:17-18
,17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

Paul also mentions it in
Colossians Ch 1:6
6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

and Ch 1:23
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant
.
Acts chapter 2:5
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

This verse shows that Jews from all over the world heard the gospel in their own tongue and could take it back to their own countries and share the good news.

Ronald David Bruno · Aug 21, 2021

Marty fox said:
This shows that the disciples were asking about the end of the temple sacrificial age as the whole world was preached to before 70AD .

That is terrible hermeneutics.
You twisted the meaning of the word "end" to remove this very huge amd key objection to your view.
I can't figure if you purposely try to misinterpret scripture or you are just blind. The disciples asked a loaded question. It was a three-part question. Jesus goes back and forth answering the question. He had just stated that the Temple would be destroyed. But the question was not just about that time, it was about His Second Coming and the end of the world
Matt. 24:14 was clearly is referring to a future time when the gospel is preached to the ENTIRE WORLD, EVERY NATION.

"...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Spreading the gospel was just getting started in the 1st Century.
You are so stuck in trying to interpret scripture symbolically that you fail to recognize truth, important signs.
.

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
That is terrible hermeneutics.
You twisted the meaning of the word "end" to remove this very huge amd key objection to your view.
I can't figure if you purposely try to misinterpret scripture or you are just blind. The disciples asked a loaded question. It was a three-part question. Jesus goes back and forth answering the question. He had just stated that the Temple would be destroyed. But the question was not just about that time, it was about His Second Coming and the end of the world
Matt. 24:14 was clearly is referring to a future time when the gospel is preached to the ENTIRE WORLD, EVERY NATION.

"...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Spreading the gospel was just getting started in the 1st Century.
You are so stuck in trying to interpret scripture symbolically that you fail to recognize truth, important signs.
.

I’ll take Paul’s biblical words over yours. My point is that Jesus and Paul used the same words and history proved them and my interpretation to be right. I am using the scriptures and history to back my belief and it’s not symbolic in this case.

So you believe that when I use symbolism I’m wrong or if I use history to prove my view and Jesus correct I’m wrong?

Jesus was talking about the end of the Old Testament temple and sacrificial age and history proved Jesus right which also proved He was God as Jesus made a prediction with a date stamp on it and it happened when He said that he would happen.

I really don’t understand why Christians deny Jesus fulfilled dated prophecy about it happening in that generation because of their interpretation of His prophecy. Jesus has history to back Him proving Him to be God and I’ll stick by what He said.

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Curtis said:
No, that’s the scholarly consensus, but preterists are forced to claim it was written before 70 AD.

So is everything a coincidence?

Nero’s name matching 666

Rome the beast destroying Jerusalem Babylon the great for Gods purpose?

Revelation was written to 7 literal church’s of what was soon to take place because the time was near. It wasn’t written to us 2000 years later. Jesus even confirms in the last chapter of revelation that He was still talking to the church’s

Why would Jesus tell a first century church to use wisdom to figure out who is the number 666 if it was someone 2000 years later?

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree with the above, but not with 98% of the rest. I don't agree at all about the "it (the Revelation) was all about 70 A.D (or A.D 30 - A.D 70)".

I don't know anything about the seven seals being recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. It's slowly becoming amazing to me how Gentile Christians of 2,000 years later somehow have become such experts in 1st century Jewish customs. These days there is a 1st-century Jewish custom to suit every interpretation. I'd love to know who's manufacturing them all.

That being said, the rest of what you quoted regarding chapters 4 and 5 is true regardless of whether or not the entire Revelation is about A.D 30 - 70.

Drawing a parallel of the seals to the Olivet Discourse but then dating it all to the events of A.D 30 - 70 ignores the fact that according to the Olivet Discourse, the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, and the last 3.5 years or so until A.D 70 would have been marked by famines, pestilences, earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars going on in various places (and that's aside from the fact that the dsicples would have become hated by all nations because the gospel would have been preached to all nations by A.D70).

Up to there you were doing fine, but then you added an interpretation:

I see that by now, over 1,950 years later, some Christians of the 21st century are as good at date-setting for the events of the Revelation as they are experts in 1st-century Jewish customs. Why go into date-setting regarding the events of the Revelation? Is that what we are meant to do? The person you quoted has done the same thing with regard to the trumpets and onward.

Started off so well with chapter 11..but then he went and called Jerusalem "holy":

The word holy means to be set apart, to be sanctified. It's like a married (and faithful) woman. She is set apart for her husband. Christians are also sanctified by the Holy Spirit through their faith in Christ.

The Revelation does not call Jerusalem "the holy city". It calls the New Jerusalem the holy city in Revelation 21:2 & 10, and in Revelation 22:19.

The Jerusalem on earth is called "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” (Revelation 11:8), and it's the same Jerusalem which Paul said is in bondage with her children (Galatians 4:25). It's highly unlikely that the Revelation, while calling the New Jerusalem the holy city three times, will call Jerusalem on earth both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in the same passage, especially since, as the person said, the temple is referring to the church/es.

I have taken the liberty to take out the unnecessary Preterist interpretations in the following:

And the dragon's war against “the rest of the woman’s offspring” has never stopped since then and will not stop until Christ returns, according to numerous statements by the apostles in the New Testament where they warn and exhort the saints in this regard.

The amount of eisegesis that this person produced in his summary of the Revelation (reading his own interpretations into what is written) is phenomenal.

See post number 31

Jerusalem was still called the Holy because God was still residing in the temple and Josephus tells us that He vacated the temple shortly before it was destroyed

Curtis · Aug 21, 2021

Marty fox said:
Or was it?

Mt 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
This shows that the disciples were asking about the end of the temple sacrificial age as the whole world was preached to before 70AD .
Paul says the gospel was preached to the whole known world in

Romans Ch 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world

and
Ch10:17-18
,17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

Paul also mentions it in
Colossians Ch 1:6
6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

and Ch 1:23
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant
.
Acts chapter 2:5
5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

This verse shows that Jews from all over the world heard the gospel in their own tongue and could take it back to their own countries and share the good news.

The gospel never gets preached to the whole world by man - there are always places that can’t be reached - hence an angel is sent to preach the gospel before the end comes.

Curtis · Aug 21, 2021

Marty fox said:
So is everything a coincidence?

Nero’s name matching 666

Rome the beast destroying Jerusalem Babylon the great for Gods purpose?

Revelation was written to 7 literal church’s of what was soon to take place because the time was near. It wasn’t written to us 2000 years later. Jesus even confirms in the last chapter of revelation that He was still talking to the church’s

Why would Jesus tell a first century church to use wisdom to figure out who is the number 666 if it was someone 2000 years later?

Soon to take place by who’s standards?

Peter in preaching about those who mock the delay in Jesus return, says God is not slow, etc, because a thousand years is as a day to God.

It’s only been two days since the church started in Acts 2, on the eternal being timescale.

Actual scholarship points out the many evidences that Revelation was after 70 ad.

I know that’s an inconvenient fact.

Also, do some research on forehadow fulfillment of some prophecies, because 70 AD is one of them.

Maranatha

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Curtis said:
Soon to take place by who’s standards?

Peter in preaching about those who mock the delay in Jesus return, says God is not slow, etc, because a thousand years is as a day to God.

It’s only been two days since the church started in Acts 2, on the eternal being timescale.

Actual scholarship points out the many evidences that Revelation was after 70 ad.

I know that’s an inconvenient fact.

Also, do some research on forehadow fulfillment of some prophecies, because 70 AD is one of them.

Maranatha

And their are many scholars who believe it was written before 70AD as well.

I go buy what the purpose of Revelation is and history

Marty fox · Aug 21, 2021

Curtis said:
The gospel never gets preached to the whole world by man - there are always places that can’t be reached - hence an angel is sent to preach the gospel before the end comes.

And yet Paul more than once says that it was

It was the known Roman world Paul and Jesus were talking about

Partial preterisims and revelation chapter by chapter part 1

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