Why The Apostles Repeatedly Disobeyed the Risen Lord

theefaith said:

Jesus made peter pope Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18

jesus is meditator of justice and shares his ministry 2 cor 5:18 with his apostles even to the point of sharing his judgement Matt 19:28

matt 16:18 keys of jurisdictional authority power to bind and loose
Same as Christ Jn 20:21-23 even the power to forgive sins

Click to expand...

Jesus didn't teach his Apostles to have titles among themselves, neither did Jesus tell them to think of themselves as one another's Superior but instead to be humble and thinking others as being superior to you. Each true christian is to have this humble attitude among themselves.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Professor Alberigo says the doctrine of the papacy didn't take root until toward the end of the fourth century, when the Roman church’s claim to an apostolic function, that is, of coordination for the western churches, becomes more insistent.” It was “during the episcopate of Leo I [fifth century],” adds Alberigo, that “the concept of Peter’s ‘princedom’ among the apostles, founded on Mt 16:18,” was developed. One finds in the New Testament no indications by Jesus concerning the successors of Peter or of the other apostles.

Click to expand...

based on Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:28

“Bible alone” did not become known until the 16 century


so you’re going with confession to govern the church and administer the kingdom

you’re giving jurisdictional authority to a confession

you’re giving a confession the power to bind and loose?

How is this possible?

also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18
Matt 28:19
Jn 20:21-23
Eph 2:20
Matt 23







Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Matt 17:27 Jesus and peter are one

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 2221-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18


Christ founded the church on Peter!
And the apostles!
Matt 16:18 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You CANNOT give the keys (jurisdictional authority) to a confession but to a person! Peter
Vs 19 I give unto thee (Peter) thou shalt bind (Peter) thou shalt loose (Peter)

Only the one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors and those members of Christ by faith and baptism United with them, the communion of the saints
Jn 16:10 matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
Jn 10:16

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The office of apostle that has the three fold office, to teach: to govern the church: and to sanctify by the sacraments or sacred oaths (promises) of the father! Acts 2:38-39 with ez 36:25-27 Heb 8:6

Teaching authority of Peter and the apostles and their successors!

Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles

1 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jude 1: 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

The holy church does not usurp Christ’s authority, the holy church establishes it throughout the whole world, and thru all time!

The holy apostles do not usurp Christ’s kingdom, the apostles administer the kingdom for Christ who ascended to heaven!

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ...

Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
To attack the church is to attack Christ!
Acts 9:4

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!


2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.





Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments


Must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Acts 2:42

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.


———

The successors of Moses having kingdom authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Mt 23 was taken from them Mt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: Mt 16:18 Mt 18:18 and Jesus says this power and authority is to be obeyed!

Rom 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(If it applies to civil authority, how much more to religious authority)

Mt 28:18-20
all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end!

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

Hierarchy is the nature of authority!

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

They are not God, not the king, not the founder!
But equal with Christ yes!
As far as roles go, Jesus is the head of the church, Peter is the head of the church on earth Mt 16:18 and leader of the apostles Mt 10:2 administers of the kingdom in the absence of the king. Acts 1:9 Jn 21:17 and Peter, the apostles and their successors are sent in the same way as Jesus!

Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
They are God breathed!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Jesus didn't teach his Apostles to have titles among themselves, neither did Jesus tell them to think of themselves as one another's Superior but instead to be humble and thinking others as being superior to you. Each true christian is to have this humble attitude among themselves.

Click to expand...

spiritual anarchy and 300000 sects all teaching contradictions

the teaching authority of the apostles is the rule of faith that produces unity of Christians


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Only the church has authority from Christ to define the truth and teach!
Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Jn 20:21-23 as the father sent me, so send I you. (The apostles)

theefaith said:

based on Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:28

Click to expand...

You can quote these scriptures all you want, it's not going to change anything, these scriptures don't prove in any way what you're trying to force them to prove.

theefaith said:

spiritual anarchy and 300000 sects all teaching contradictions

the teaching authority of the apostles is the rule of faith that produces unity of Christians


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Only the church has authority from Christ to define the truth and teach!
Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority of fathers! Heb 13:17

Protestantism is a sin against the Christian virtue of obedience!
(Spiritual anarchy)

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Jn 20:21-23 as the father sent me, so send I you. (The apostles)

Click to expand...

I see no love for God or for your spiritual brothers and sisters, which produces true unity among the True God's people. That kind of love isn't among Catholics or protestant religions. They will kill each other during times of war. True Christians will remain steadfast and refuse to kill or help kill any human especially their spiritual brothers and sisters even during times of war.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

You can quote these scriptures all you want, it's not going to change anything, these scriptures don't prove in any way what you're trying to force them to prove.

Click to expand...

Yes it does Christ founded a church
The church is founded on Peter and the apostles eph 2:20
The church of the apostles to teach Matt 28:19
Without error Jn 16:13
Not pass out bibles and you have a personal interpretation

theefaith said:

Yes it does Christ founded a church
The church is founded on Peter and the apostles eph 2:20
The church of the apostles to teach Matt 28:19
Without error Jn 16:13
Not pass out bibles and you have a personal interpretation

Click to expand...

You agree with councils of men who have their personal interpretation so if you believe you shouldn't go by personal interpretation, why are you.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I see no love for God or for your spiritual brothers and sisters, which produces true unity among the True God's people. That kind of love isn't among Catholics or protestant religions. They will kill each other during times of war. True Christians will remain steadfast and refuse to kill or help kill any human especially their spiritual brothers and sisters even during times of war.

Click to expand...

unity of faith
That means we can only be united on the basis of doctrine

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I see no love for God or for your spiritual brothers and sisters, which produces true unity among the True God's people. That kind of love isn't among Catholics or protestant religions. They will kill each other during times of war. True Christians will remain steadfast and refuse to kill or help kill any human especially their spiritual brothers and sisters even during times of war.

Click to expand...

fo you believe in the doctrine of “faith alone”? If so then you have room for love of God or neighbor

theefaith said:

Yes it does Christ founded a church
The church is founded on Peter and the apostles eph 2:20
The church of the apostles to teach Matt 28:19
Without error Jn 16:13
Not pass out bibles and you have a personal interpretation

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with giving people Bibles, and the Scriptures says: Coming to him [Jesus Christ] as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but chosen, precious, with God, you yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it is contained in Scripture: ‘Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment. 1Peter 2: 4-6; Ephesians 2:20.
Now I certainly agree that the apostles are living stones in this True Church but it's Jesus Christ who is the foundation of the True Church and therefore he is the head of the True Church. Also these councils of men whether they be Catholic or protestant are not the living stones of the True Church that Jesus is the foundation and head of, although I know you and others believe they are, that's your right, I disagree with you however.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

You agree with councils of men who have their personal interpretation so if you believe you shouldn't go by personal interpretation, why are you.

Click to expand...

not personal interpretation but the apostles teaching with the truths revealed by Christ and the light of the HS Jn 16:13

the church is governed by men
The kingdom is administered by men since Christ appointed the apostles and ascended to heaven

theefaith said:

unity of faith
That means we can only be united on the basis of doctrine

Click to expand...

Unity of faith has always been about love first and foremost. Having love among yourselves is what the scriptures show is proof that people are truly Jesus disciples, and yes because of that love they have among themselves they will agree with what is true doctrine concerning God and the scriptures. John 13:34, 35.

theefaith said:

not personal interpretation but the apostles teaching with the truths revealed by Christ and the light of the HS Jn 16:13

the church is governed by men
The kingdom is administered by men since Christ appointed the apostles and ascended to heaven

Click to expand...

The scripture also shows that just as Jesus sowed seed, so did Satan. I know you believe these councils of men are following Jesus and what the apostles said, but these councils of men are just that, councils of men and when these councils of men add to scripture they're wrong for doing so. The Trinity, hellfire and immortality of the soul to name a few are not in the scriptures. Just because these councils of men say they are doesn't prove that's true, especially when these doctrines are not in the scriptures.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Unity of faith has always been about love first and foremost. Having love among yourselves is what the scriptures show is proof that people are truly Jesus disciples, and yes because of that love they have among themselves they will agree with what is true doctrine concerning God and the scriptures. John 13:34, 35.

Click to expand...

doctrine cannot be formed on consensus

it is divine revelation

God reveals the truth

the fullness of truth in Christ in His church thru the teaching authority of the apostles

Jn 1:16-17

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

The scripture also shows that just as Jesus sowed seed, so did Satan. I know you believe these councils of men are following Jesus and what the apostles said, but these councils of men are just that, councils of men and when these councils of men add to scripture they're wrong for doing so. The Trinity, hellfire and immortality of the soul to name a few are not in the scriptures. Just because these councils of men say they are doesn't prove that's true, especially when these doctrines are not in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

was Peter just a man?
Was Mathias an apostle?

Wrangler said:

Nice assertion. Yet many claim different doctrines. IF you want to claim your doctrine is not found in Scripture but was divinely revealed to you, just say that.

Click to expand...

scripture and the teaching authority of the apostles