Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Joshua declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:19, and see this post in this thread showing Joshua saying the people chose God in a pejorative manner in Joshua 24:22).

Lord Yeshua declares "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

The Lord is a Holy God (Joshua 24:19), and no man can enter the presence of God by the man's own autonomous power (Matthew 19:25-26).

BEHOLD THE DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT MAN IS IMPOTENT AT CHOOSING GOD.

Joshua declared "He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

Lord Yeshua declares "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Lord is a jealous God (Joshua 24:19), so God does not share the glory of choosing man unto salvation (Isaiah 42:8).

BEHOLD ANOTHER DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT GOD EXCLUSIVELY CONTROLS FORGIVENESS OF SINS UNTO SALVATION.

(1) The scripture in Joshua 24 never indicates that the people chose God with God's blessing.

(2) Joshua told the people that they are "witnesses against yourselves" (Joshua 24:22), so the people testified to the condemnation of themselves.

(3) From the time that Joshua commanded to the people in attendance "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) at least 245 years* transpired until another generation of people "put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time, and non-performance of the command (Joshua 24:23) shows fruit contrary of the people in attendance choice mentioned by Joshua (Joshua 24:22).

* 40 years (Judges 3:11) + 80 years (Judges 3:30) + 40 years (Judges 5:31) + 40 years (Judges 8:28) + 23 years (Judges 10:2) + 22 years (Judges 10:3) = 245 years

The truth is no scripture states that man was imparted free will.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

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Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:
One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

<<<In your heart you think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think that God uses God's "will" to perform evil disobedience against God.

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Adam was created with a "will" duplicate of God's "will" according to free will philosophy.

Since Adam's "will' did the evil of violating God's command, then God with the original source "will" also violates God's own decrees according to free will philosophy.

You treasure your fleshy free will philosophy.

Your words reveal the treasure of your heart.

Tong2020 said:

<<<And in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think I do not think…

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I wrote "God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature".

In response you wrote "I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions".

So I illuminated your position I by writing "And in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature".

Now you deny your own writing and that is your confusion.

As is clearly evident from your own writing, in your heart you do not think that God is Creator and that man is creature.

Tong2020 said:

<<<And in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think I
do not think that Adam was flesh.

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I wrote "As this post which includes Romans 5 in this thread shows, Paul compared and contrasted Adam to Jesus, and the flesh man precedes the spiritual man for every person, and the flesh man cannot please God apart from God converting the flesh man into a spiritual man."

In response you wrote "I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions".

So I illuminated your position by writing "And in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh."

Now you deny your own writing and that is your confusion.

As is clearly evident from your own writing, in your heart you do not think that Adam was flesh.

Tong2020 said:

<<<And in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think.

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I wrote 'The person who says "I chose Jesus" and/or "I accepted Jesus", and if the person continues practicing such a claim after hearing that Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), then such a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) reviles Jesus as well as attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts.'

In response you wrote "I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions".

So I illuminated your position by writing "And in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus."

Now you deny your own writing and that is your confusion.

As is clearly evident from your own writing, in your heart you think that you can choose Jesus.

Tong2020 said:

<<<And in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.>>>

Nope. You know not my heart.
Nope. In your mind, you think I think about all of that.

If that is the effective and fail safe way of refutation, you have done a good job at it. But too bad, it is not.

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I wrote "As this post in this thread shows, the words and surrounding context of Joshua 24:15 indicates inability for people to choose to serve God precisely as Joshua said (Joshua 24:19)."

In response you wrote "I do not agree with your line of reasoning there, and so then with your conclusions".

So I illuminated your position by writing 'And in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.'

Now you deny your own writing and that is your confusion.

As is clearly evident from your own writing, in your heart you think that Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.

Tong2020 said:

I am beginning to think, with all that, and a robotic repetition at that, perhaps you want to speak for me?

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I'm not interested in that position, but God has me illuminating the error in your writing.

Tong2020 said:

That’s clear. You don’t believe you have freedom to do his own will. Oh yes, I know, only according to your personal definition of free will.

Tong
R4069

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My "will" is joyfully captivated by the loving majesty of King Jesus, Sovereign of the Kingdom of God. This goes for all of us children of God (John 3:21, see also Philippians 2:13).

Free will is autonomous will, and there is no such thing as autonomous will for man.

Every person starts out life as a slave to sin (Romans 6:20), so as a slave to sin a person has no means, no ability, to change from being a slave to sin on their own (1 Corinthians 2:14).

A slave of sin is purchased solely by the Christ to be converted solely by Christ into a slave of Righteousness (Romans 6:18), and Christ is the Righteous Branch (Jeremiah 23 5).

Autonomous human will does not exist according to this Truth, that is Christ (John 14:6).

People do have a will; however, a person's will is subject to being a slave of sin, or a person's will is subject to being a slave of righteousness; moreover, a slave is not free, so a slave's will is bound to the slave's master; therefore, a slave has a bond-will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

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LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

A clever one, I have to say.

Then, that would be saying all sins are not according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. And that would put out the sense of what Paul was making out of verse 14.

Well, anyway, thank you for giving your answer.

Tong
R4070

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Sin is missing the mark - a crime against God. All of this is in accord with Paul's writing in Romans 5:14.

Adam missed the mark, and you miss the mark such that based upon your writing you assert that a "will" for Adam which is a "will" in the likeness of God's "will" - a duplication of God's "will" which cannot oppose God - you assert that such a "will" for Adam could oppose God.

Yet Adam did sin has recorded in Genesis 3:6.

Therefore you wickedly ascribed ability to Adam that exceeds God's own ability.

Furthermore based upon your philosophy God does have the ability to oppose God - which by extension means that the promises of God are worthless. Such a philosophy is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

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LORD JESUS INDICATES DISCIPLES IN THE SUPPER ROOM OF A NUMBER GREATER THAN 12

Lord Jesus says "It is one of the twelve, one who dips with Me in the bowl" (Mark 14:19) about the apostle who betrayed Him.

The Master Orator cleverly exposes that the audience for the supper exceeds the 12 apostles by explicitly stating "the twelve" instead of "you".

Master Jesus used the phrase "the twelve" to distinguish that the betrayer was in the group of 12 disciples called apostles which, by such way of expression by Jesus, the rest of the disciples present in the supper room would know that they are not the betrayer that Jesus was identifying.


Lord Jesus expressed that more than 12 disciples attended the supper when He exposed that the betrayer was not only from the set of all disciples but even more narrowly that the betrayer was numbered from among "the twelve" - the 12 disciples He called apostles.


Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

So, while you believe that God created and made man with a will, which you call “bond-will”, you cannot seem to give a clear answer to the question “Did Adam had a bond-will before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?”. I think I understand why.

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Scripture conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Therefore, the kind of "will" that Adam was created with, if any kind, is irrelevant to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Not only that, you are asking a question that is scrupulously covered earlier in this thread.

Evidently, you do not understand.

Tong2020 said:

Irrelevant to my statement.

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According to free-willian philosophy, human salvation is contingent upon a person choosing Jesus unto salvation, so no salvation occurs without such a person's choice toward Jesus.

Now back to your incomplete statement to which I appended clarification which makes your statement complete according to free-willian philosophy.

"The matter of God’s salvation of fallen man is something that belongs only to God" (your words) except salvation for the fallen man cannot happen unless the fallen man chooses God according to free-will philosophy.

Since you claim man chooses Jesus, then in your heart you call Jesus a deceiver because Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

That is relevant to your statement.

That is relevant to your philosophy.

That is relevant to free-will philosophy.

Tong2020 said:

So you believe that God created Adam, whom you refer to the natural man. And this man He created is one who by nature opposes God? Well,….

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The Apostle Paul identifies Adam as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

1 Corinthians 15:46 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to Adam with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

1 Corinthians 2:14 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

The Apostle Paul explains that Adam's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with
"the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

Galatians 5:17 as applicable to the creation account is distasteful to your heart.

Tong2020 said:

And Adam had no full understanding of the commandment of God to him in Gen.2:16-17?

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Adam did not have a full understanding of the commandment of God to him as recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 for it is written “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22); therefore, Adam, the man, knew not good and evil prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Tong2020 said:

What is it that he do not understand in the commandment?

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Since Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6, Genesis 3:22), then Adam did not know the evil of listening to the voice of Adam's wife and Adam did not know the evil of violating God's command.

The Word of God says to Adam “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’" (Genesis 3:17).

Tong2020 said:

And the things of God (such as commandment in Gen. 2:16-17) was foolishness? Well,…..wow,….

Tong
R4071

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God's commands are immeasurably valuable, yet God's command (Genesis 2:16-17) was foolishness to Adam (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Your confusion is immense.

According to scripture, Adam (a natural man, 1 Corinthians 15:46) did not understand (the things of God were foolishness to Adam, 1 Corinthians 2:14) everything about God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

Moreover, the natural man Adam opposes the thing of God (Galatians 5:17), that is, God's command of "You shall not eat from it" regarding the tree (Genesis 3:17).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

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JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.


John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.


Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

The point remains, obey or disobey God’s command, your choice. In both cases, there is consequence.

Whether one is able to obey is a different point.

Here’s another example commandment. Do not steal. Obey or disobey, your choice.

Questions:
1. When you are stealing, are you not in disobedience?
2. When you are not stealing, are you not in obedience?

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The Apostle Paul mentions "obedience" one time in Romans chapter 5, and Paul mentions "disobedience" one time in Romans chapter 5.

"For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:19) wrote Paul.

Notice that:

(A) Paul identifies Adam with "disobedience".

(B) Paul DOES NOT identify Adam with "obedience".

(C) Paul identifies Jesus with "obedience".

(D) Paul DOES NOT identify Jesus with "disobedience".

all in Romans chapter 5.

Adam was not guilty of disobedience prior to eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6); moreover, Adam was guilty of disobedience after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:17).

No scripture throughout the entirety of the Bible indicates that Adam was obedient. Scripture only indicates Adam's disobedience.

No scripture states that Adam had the ability to be obedient; therefore, Adam was not guilty of violating God's command recorded in Genesis 2:16-17) prior to eating (Genesis 3:6).

As this post in this thread shows, scripturally a difference exists between Adam being not guilty before eating of the tree versus Adam being in obedience before eating of the tree.

The thoughts of your heart add to the Word of God as well as subtract from the Word of God.

Tong2020 said:

<<<In effect, you are calling Jesus a deceiving spirit…>>>

Nope! That’s you think it is. But nope. I will never ever even have any thoughts doing that to my Lord Jesus Christ.

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When you wrote "Obey or disobey. Your choice", in effect, you are calling Jesus a deceiving spirit for:

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God)

Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, includes righteously obeying God).

Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21, even coming to Jesus in obedience is wrought in God).

Tong2020 said:

<<<There you go again, in effect, you calling Joshua is a false prophet when he declared "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.>>>

Nope. Just believing what Joshua 24:31 plainly says. Seems you really have a problem with one like me who believes what scripture says concerning the people of Israel in that point of time in the past.

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You are flat out denying Joshua's words of "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins..." (Joshua 24:19) to the people in attendance.

Therefore, in effect, you calling Joshua is a false prophet.

Tong2020 said:

Nobody is saying that Genesis 3:17 says that verbatim.

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In your heart you say that God said "Because you chose to listen to the voice of your wife" in Genesis 3:17 - which is the conveyance of your writing.

Your heart's contention is not what God said.

God did say "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19).

Therefore, in your heart you wickedly add "chose" into the Word of God where "chose" does not exist!

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17.

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Tong2020 said:

You don’t know my heart. So that would make your statements as being only what evil you think of my heart. Such character you have there.

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Out of your mouth come the treasures of your heart (Matthew 15:18).

You reveal your wicked treasure that is your wickedly defiant claimex choice of Jesus

Tong2020 said:

Nope. You have to learn how not to speak for others. Besides you don’t absolutely know my heart.

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I merely paraphrase your writings back to you exposing the treasures of your heart that come out of you (Matthew 15:18).

Tong2020 said:

What God literally stated in Gen.3:17 is about the reason why He (God) will to do this: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”, in consequence to Adam’s heeding the voice of his wife and have eaten from the tree of which God commanded him, to not eat of.

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You failed to quote Genesis 3:17.

See the word "because" in Genesis 3:17

The word "because" means "be the cause".

As this post in this thread shows, God LITERALLY declares the CAUSE which was that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the cause for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17).

Tong2020 said:

I pray to God that you learn to not speak for others.

And again, Nope!

Nothing new? Same old pointless statements starting with the “you…..” You seem to want to talk about what you think evil of me than about what scriptures say. Well,….

Tong
R4072

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Again, your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you subtract "ate" from "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you subtract "tree" from "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you subtract "Adam" from "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you subtract "not willingly" from Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is Romans 8:20-22 in context.

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

To whom did Jesus say “you did not choose Me, but I chose you"? He said them to the 12 disciples, though not for Judas Iscariot. (John 13)

Tong
R4067

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COMMUNION, THE SHARE OF CHRIST BY CHRIST AND THROUGH CHRIST, THE BLESSED GIFT PROVIDED TO HIS OWN PEOPLE

Written of Jesus Christ is "And when He had taken [some] bread [and] given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'" (Luke 22:19).

This event where Lord Jesus says "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19) is during the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in the Gospel of John chapters 13 - 17

Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53). Thus, Life requires eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Lord Jesus Christ. We know that the Corinthians did this after Jesus' ascension because the Apostle Paul wrote to the assembly at Corinth about the communion in eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 11:23-34).

All of these "you" occurrences derive from the same supper:

The "you" in Luke 22:19 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John 6:53 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John John 15:16 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John John 15:19 refers to all believers in all time.


Communion in Christ, completely of Christ by Christ and through Christ, is for the chosen of God!


Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper

Related post 8: John's writings for we believers in all time

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

. You can convince yourself that all you want. If you glorify yourself by such. I guess you consider yourself as not have misused and misunderstood scriptures? Well,….

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The evidence of you adulterating the Word of God is in this post and
this post and this post and this post

Tong2020 said:

And so you think I am calling Jesus a deceiving Spirit. But Nope. My God will be my judge. For only God absolutely knows my heart. But you don’t because you are not God. Unless you think otherwise?

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Out of your mouth come the treasures of your heart (Matthew 15:18).

You reveal your wicked treasure that is your wickedly defiant claim of your choice of Jesus.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God)

Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus says "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5, includes righteously obeying God).

Lord Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21, even coming to Jesus in obedience is wrought in God).

Tong2020 said:

And I have already told you and clarified that I was not referring to the scriptures quoted, as included in “wells without water”. But it seems no matter what clarification I tell you, is of no matter. You’d rather tell me what I meant in mu statements than me telling you what I meant. Perhaps you’ll be better alone talking to yourself. For evidently you seem to believe only you.

Tong
R4073

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@Tong2020, the post has a plethora of scripture to which you referred to as "wells without water",

The post heads off with the citation of "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6).

This means that either you called Jesus' words of Christ being Life "wells without water" or you arrogantly called when I wrote your words are not life "wells without water".

Whether you like it or not, that is the accurate description of your action.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Tong2020 said:

<<<Your answer to question 3 contradicts your answer to question 2.>>>

Nope. You may want to read my answer again, but this time carefully and thoughtfully.

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Yes your answers for questions 2 and 3 are in contradiction, and this post shows your error.

Tong2020 said:

<<<In question 2 you acknowledge that Adam did not know that it was evil to violate God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil.>>>

Yup.

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OK

Tong2020 said:

<<<Then in question 3 you claim Adam willingly performed the evil of disobedience against God's command - a thing that Adam's "will" could not "know" because Adam did nor know evil.>>>

Nope. What I said is “Adam, willingly ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in disobedience to God’s command not to eat of it.”

Apparently you need for me to explain that for you. While Adam willingly ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he did so without knowing what disobedience is evil, for he have no knowledge of good and evil. Got it?

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Disobedience to God's command by man is evil.

A person willingly disobeying God is doing evil, so you have Adam "willing" to do evil (disobedience) without knowing what evil is.

In question 2 you acknowledge that Adam did not know that it was evil to violate God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge good and evil.

Then in question 3 you claim Adam willingly performed the evil of disobedience against God's command - a thing that Adam's "will" could not "know" because Adam did nor know evil.

In other words, in your heart you have Adam "willing" evil against God's command, yet Adam does not know evil.

You contradict yourself which is confusion, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Tong2020 said:

snip...

<<<You call the Apostle Paul a liar because Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly subject creation to futility by eating of the tree of the knowledge good and evil (Romans 8:20-22).>>>

Nope. Now you seem to blame me foe your error. Don’t know your error here? As I said, need a hint?


No problem, if you prefer “listened”.

Tong
R4074

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Despite your protests, you call the Apostle Paul a liar because Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly subject creation to futility by eating of the tree of the knowledge good and evil (Romans 8:20-22).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Ronald Nolette said:

Sorry for the delay, I was in the hospital for 8 days having heart surgery.

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May God bless your recovery.

Ronald Nolette said:

Bottom line is this according to you- because you do not believe Adam had free will, when given the apple he was compelled to eat it.

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I'm not finding the cause of Adam's eating of the tree which you describe in the Word of God.

God did say "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19).

GOD LITERALLY STATES THE CAUSE FOR ADAM EATING OF THE TREE.

Ronald Nolette said:

He had no choice but to eat it because , according to you He had no ability to refuse to eat it.

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No scripture states that Adam had the ability to refuse to eat it.

Ronald Nolette said:

that is what free will is about you know. the ability to choose or not to choose to sin.

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You have zero scripture that accords with your thoughts there.

Ronald Nolette said:

so you believe Adam had no capacity to resist the temptation to sin. Unless of course you have definition of free will that runs contrary to what nearly everyone believes.

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As this post in this thread shows, Paul compared and contrasted Adam to Jesus, and the flesh man precedes the spiritual man for every person. By default, man opposes God (Galatians 5:17). God causes man to be born of God (John 3:3-8), and God causes man to will and to work by the Power of God (Philippians 2:13).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.