The Man of Sin

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Alethos

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Over the past few weeks it has become apparent that some members are touching on subjects such as The Apostasy, Man of Sin, Beasts and other prophetical topics of interest.

Rather than putting forth my own understandings on these topics, which is usually the case, I thought a scriptural comparison could stimulate discussion.

From 2 Thess 2 and Revelation 13 & 17 we see the "Man of Sin" closely resembles the "Beast" of Revelation.


2 Thess 2 cp Rev 13 & 17

2 Thess 2:3. The falling away must come first. Rev 17:13, Rev 17:11. A harlot will be seated on the Beast, who goes into perdition.

2 Thess 2:4. He exalts himself against God. Rev 13:4, Rev 13:5, Rev 13:8, Rev 13:12. The world worships the Beast, who speaks blasphemies. All who dwell on the earth except the faithful shall worship it. The false prophet ensures this.

2 Thess 2:4. He sits in the temple of God, claiming to be God. Rev 13:6. It blasphemes God's name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

2 Thess 2:7. The mystery of iniquity is already at work. Rev 17:5. The harlot is called mystery, the mother of the abominations of the earth.

2 Thess 2:8. The Lord Jesus shall destroy him with the breath of His mouth, and bring him to naught by the manifestation of His coming. Rev 17:14; Rev 17:19: Rev 17:15. The Lamb shall overcome the Beast with the ten kings. Out of his mouth proceeds a sharp sword.

2 Thess 2:9. His coming is according to the working of Satan, with all powers and signs and lying wonders. Rev 13:13. He doeth great signs, that he should even make fire come down from heaven: it was given to him to give breath to the image of the Beast, that it should speak.

2 Thess 2:10. With all deceit and unrighteousness in them that are perishing, because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. For this cause God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie. Rev 13:14. He deceives them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs.

I am sure you see how this comparison leaves little doubt that the Man of Sin and the Beast refer to the same power system.

But what power and what can we learn from 1 & 2 Thess & Revelation 13 & 17.
 

veteran

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Thing is brother, all that is not just pointing to a system of power, but especially about a certain 'he'.

Two different 'beasts' are given in Rev.13. The first one comes out of the sea, which are the "waters" Christ was talking about in Rev.17:15, showing the first one is about peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

But the 2nd beast John saw comes up out of the earth, and is about a specific man with power on earth to work miracles to deceive, and he takes all the power of the 1st beast.

Another major point of the whole prophecy is about the first sin by Satan, coveting God's Throne (Ezek.28; Isaiah 14). That's exactly what Paul shows that "man of sin" will do per 2 Thess.2:4.

So each believer must make a choice about this; either it's about a system on earth only, or a certain false one, or both workings at the same time that has not happenned on earth yet. I say it is about both, a system over all nations, and a false messiah king coming to sit in power over it, with the power of Satan to work miracles on earth to make the majority believe on him and it, all in our near future.




 

Alethos

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Thing is brother, all that is not just pointing to a system of power, but especially about a certain 'he'.

Two different 'beasts' are given in Rev.13. The first one comes out of the sea, which are the "waters" Christ was talking about in Rev.17:15, showing the first one is about peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

I think you will find four beasts in Revelation
1. Red Dragon
2. Beast of the Sea
3. Beast of the Earth
4. Scarlet Coloured Beast

But I wont go into them now

But the 2nd beast John saw comes up out of the earth, and is about a specific man with power on earth to work miracles to deceive, and he takes all the power of the 1st beast.

Another major point of the whole prophecy is about the first sin by Satan, coveting God's Throne (Ezek.28; Isaiah 14). That's exactly what Paul shows that "man of sin" will do per 2 Thess.2:4.

So each believer must make a choice about this; either it's about a system on earth only, or a certain false one, or both workings at the same time that has not happenned on earth yet. I say it is about both, a system over all nations, and a false messiah king coming to sit in power over it, with the power of Satan to work miracles on earth to make the majority believe on him and it, all in our near future.

Man of Sin Cont...

2 Thess 2:3 "For that day [of the Lord's coming] will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition".

I have been thinking about this son of perdition.

Why would Paul quote Jesus Christ speaking of Judas? John 17:12

Is Paul allowing us to see the characteristics of this sin made flesh? Man of lawlessness? Who was a false apostle, an adversary (satan) against the truth John 6:70 & Luke 22:3.

If you consider 2 Corinth 12:12 which describes the work of a true Apostle they are almost identical with this verse. I really think this is worthy of deep consideration in terms of the workings of this man of sin. Compare 2 Thess 2:9-10 & 2 Corinth 12:12

This alone would reinforce the concept of the "man of lawlessness" could be a powerful believer, but who is instead a traitor like Judas.

Also when you look at Matt 24:24 about the false prophets arising and showing great signs and wonders to lead many astray...even the very Elect. There is a sense of one operating under a disguise acting the role of a great Apostle but actually a manifestation of flesh.

This leave me asking a question.

Whoever this man is to be, is it feasible he may not know his position before God until it is too late? Like Judas. And in some ways like the Apostle Paul himself for imagine if he was allowed to continue persecuting the first believers.

While Paul here focuses on a single man John doesn’t appear to do so.

He speaks of an Anti Christ which appears to be group compare 1 John 4:1 1 John 4:3

1 John 2:18-19 2 John 1:7

It’s a movement, whatever it is and it’s no doubt in my mind Christian.

If you need confirmation you can almost enter into Paul’s apprehension in Gal 2:4 speaking about the treacherous work of false brethren who are secretly brought in, who falsely enter the body of Christ to bring them once again into bondage of law. The Judaizers or better termed by Paul the circumcision party Gal 2:2 & Acts 11:2 who caused unrest at the Jerusalem conference.

I am not sure what you make of the above. But I conclude by suggesting the movement is on earth and its Christian, it must be large enough to sway the whole earth or a good portion of it.

Alethos





 

veteran

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I think you will find four beasts in Revelation
1. Red Dragon
2. Beast of the Sea
3. Beast of the Earth
4. Scarlet Coloured Beast

But I wont go into them now

In Rev.13 there's only 2 mentioned (your no.2 & 3). The red dragon of Rev.12:3-4 is about Satan's original rebellion against God of old, and his drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. The red dragon is another title for Satan, just as the dragon title in all Rev. is also. The scarlet colored beast is the same one of Rev.13:1, which is why Rev.17:1-4 gives those symbols of Rev.13 again. The subject of the great whore sitting upon that Rev.13:1 beast is a new detail being given.


Man of Sin Cont...
2 Thess 2:3 "For that day [of the Lord's coming] will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition".

I have been thinking about this son of perdition.

Why would Paul quote Jesus Christ speaking of Judas? John 17:12


Apostle Paul was not talking about Judas with that title. Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. That's a clue for us to consider who the real "son of perdition" is. In John 6:70-71 our Lord said Judas Iscariot was "a devil". In Rev.9 one of the names for the Devil is Apollyon, which is from the Greek word for 'perdition'. Did you know Judas has not been judged to perish yet? Who has already been sentenced and judged to perish in the lake of fire? No one born in the flesh has been judged to perish yet; that's what the great white throne judgment is for, and it has not come yet, not until after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

The LORD didn't give all important parts of endtime prophecy in just one place in Scripture, otherwise the wicked could easily understand it too. He gave it to those of His servants that use wisdom to put it together. Some in trying to be so precise in God's Word often miss the mark because of not putting the pieces together in understanding, i.e., not seeing the forest because of the trees. Coverage of Bible prophecy line upon line is just the first requirement. Our Lord's Revelation is especially written like that, requiring that we've already studied all His Word prior to it. And it also reveals subjects His Apostles gave prior to John's writing Revelation down to give to the seven Churches.


Is Paul allowing us to see the characteristics of this sin made flesh? Man of lawlessness? Who was a false apostle, an adversary (satan) against the truth John 6:70 & Luke 22:3.
If you consider 2 Corinth 12:12 which describes the work of a true Apostle they are almost identical with this verse. I really think this is worthy of deep consideration in terms of the workings of this man of sin. Compare 2 Thess 2:9-10 & 2 Corinth 12:12
This alone would reinforce the concept of the "man of lawlessness" could be a powerful believer, but who is instead a traitor like Judas.

Also when you look at Matt 24:24 about the false prophets arising and showing great signs and wonders to lead many astray...even the very Elect. There is a sense of one operating under a disguise acting the role of a great Apostle but actually a manifestation of flesh.

This leave me asking a question.


I think you're leaving the elements of Paul's prophecy with that thinking. Who was first lawless? Who sinned from the beginning? Wasn't Judas Iscariot. Wasn't Adam either. In relation to the rest of God's Word, I think Apostle Paul made it very plain who that "man of sin" really is. The problem some seem to have is simply in believing it.

Also, the context of the false one our Lord Jesus foretold of in Matt.24:23-26 is singular. That's why He warned that if someone says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", to not believe it. He did not warn if someone says, 'Lo here are Christs' (plural).


Whoever this man is to be, is it feasible he may not know his position before God until it is too late? Like Judas. And in some ways like the Apostle Paul himself for imagine if he was allowed to continue persecuting the first believers.
While Paul here focuses on a single man John doesn’t appear to do so.

He speaks of an Anti Christ which appears to be group compare 1 John 4:1 1 John 4:3

1 John 2:18-19 2 John 1:7

It’s a movement, whatever it is and it’s no doubt in my mind Christian.


You're beating down the wrong path, aligning with doctrines of men on that point. John mentioned a singular antichrist along with the idea of many antichrists (i.e., followers of antichrist). Paul does the same thing in 2 Thess.2 with a distinction between a certain false one coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself over all that is called God or that worshipped, vs. the "mystery of iniquity".

If you had studied the Old Testament like you were supposed to, you'd understand Paul was talking about the "workers of iniquity" idea from the OT with that "mystery of iniquity". The "workers of iniquity" idea from the OT is not about everyone that has sinned. It's about the truly wicked who love to sin, and will show others how to sin (Isa.5:18-23). They are the unrepentant, the tares our Lord Jesus taught of in Matt.13. They follow Satan and know it, and love it. What our Lord showed about Judas, even calling him "a devil", with Judas holding the bag and coveting position and money instead of truly following Christ revealed Judas as a 'tare'.

Why would our Lord Jesus choose a 'tare' to be among His chosen Apostles? It's because His Salvation is offerred even to the 'tares' if they will repent and turn to The Father through Him. God doesn't want any soul to perish (2 Pet.3:9).


If you need confirmation you can almost enter into Paul’s apprehension in Gal 2:4 speaking about the treacherous work of false brethren who are secretly brought in, who falsely enter the body of Christ to bring them once again into bondage of law. The Judaizers or better termed by Paul the circumcision party Gal 2:2 & Acts 11:2 who caused unrest at the Jerusalem conference.
I am not sure what you make of the above. But I conclude by suggesting the movement is on earth and its Christian, it must be large enough to sway the whole earth or a good portion of it.

Like I said, I think you're beating down the wrong path, not understanding the main point of what Paul was talking about. No true Christian would ever exalt himself above The Father and His Son in His place. And no other true Christian would ever follow one doing that, because it would mean personal denial of Christ's Blood shed on the cross. Even the pope doesn't deny Christ's Blood, though some try to say he places himself in Christ's place. For even a pope to do that, they would have to totally deny Christ's Blood shed on the cross, including any and all rituals involving such, especially Holy Communion.

So that leaves out any idea that "man of sin" would involve a Christian who professes Christ Jesus, especially since John defined meaning of the word antichrist being about one who denies Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, denying both The Father and The Son.

So at best, if a flesh man, that "man of sin" would have to be allied with Satan directly, one of his servants. Or it could mean Satan himself as that "man of sin", especially since Satan has already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future lake of fire, and Apollyon is one of his many titles. And our Lord in His Revelation does point directly to Satan as the "dragon"; and it's the "dragon" that is to work the great signs and wonders or miracles in Rev.13 that our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul in 2 Thess.2:9-10.

Moreover, that act of 2 Thess.2:3-4 of sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, is directly pointing to the very first sin by Satan at his original rebellion (Ezek.28; Isaiah 14). So I think The LORD and His Apostles made it very plain who that "man of sin" will be; Satan himself, coming to the earth to play God.


 

Alethos

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In Rev.13 there's only 2 mentioned (your no.2 & 3). The red dragon of Rev.12:3-4 is about Satan's original rebellion against God of old, and his drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him. The red dragon is another title for Satan, just as the dragon title in all Rev. is also. The scarlet colored beast is the same one of Rev.13:1, which is why Rev.17:1-4 gives those symbols of Rev.13 again. The subject of the great whore sitting upon that Rev.13:1 beast is a new detail being given.




Apostle Paul was not talking about Judas with that title. Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. That's a clue for us to consider who the real "son of perdition" is. In John 6:70-71 our Lord said Judas Iscariot was "a devil". In Rev.9 one of the names for the Devil is Apollyon, which is from the Greek word for 'perdition'. Did you know Judas has not been judged to perish yet? Who has already been sentenced and judged to perish in the lake of fire? No one born in the flesh has been judged to perish yet; that's what the great white throne judgment is for, and it has not come yet, not until after Christ's future thousand years reign on earth.

The LORD didn't give all important parts of endtime prophecy in just one place in Scripture, otherwise the wicked could easily understand it too. He gave it to those of His servants that use wisdom to put it together. Some in trying to be so precise in God's Word often miss the mark because of not putting the pieces together in understanding, i.e., not seeing the forest because of the trees. Coverage of Bible prophecy line upon line is just the first requirement. Our Lord's Revelation is especially written like that, requiring that we've already studied all His Word prior to it. And it also reveals subjects His Apostles gave prior to John's writing Revelation down to give to the seven Churches.




I think you're leaving the elements of Paul's prophecy with that thinking. Who was first lawless? Who sinned from the beginning? Wasn't Judas Iscariot. Wasn't Adam either. In relation to the rest of God's Word, I think Apostle Paul made it very plain who that "man of sin" really is. The problem some seem to have is simply in believing it.

Also, the context of the false one our Lord Jesus foretold of in Matt.24:23-26 is singular. That's why He warned that if someone says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", to not believe it. He did not warn if someone says, 'Lo here are Christs' (plural).




You're beating down the wrong path, aligning with doctrines of men on that point. John mentioned a singular antichrist along with the idea of many antichrists (i.e., followers of antichrist). Paul does the same thing in 2 Thess.2 with a distinction between a certain false one coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself over all that is called God or that worshipped, vs. the "mystery of iniquity".

If you had studied the Old Testament like you were supposed to, you'd understand Paul was talking about the "workers of iniquity" idea from the OT with that "mystery of iniquity". The "workers of iniquity" idea from the OT is not about everyone that has sinned. It's about the truly wicked who love to sin, and will show others how to sin (Isa.5:18-23). They are the unrepentant, the tares our Lord Jesus taught of in Matt.13. They follow Satan and know it, and love it. What our Lord showed about Judas, even calling him "a devil", with Judas holding the bag and coveting position and money instead of truly following Christ revealed Judas as a 'tare'.

Why would our Lord Jesus choose a 'tare' to be among His chosen Apostles? It's because His Salvation is offerred even to the 'tares' if they will repent and turn to The Father through Him. God doesn't want any soul to perish (2 Pet.3:9).




Like I said, I think you're beating down the wrong path, not understanding the main point of what Paul was talking about. No true Christian would ever exalt himself above The Father and His Son in His place. And no other true Christian would ever follow one doing that, because it would mean personal denial of Christ's Blood shed on the cross. Even the pope doesn't deny Christ's Blood, though some try to say he places himself in Christ's place. For even a pope to do that, they would have to totally deny Christ's Blood shed on the cross, including any and all rituals involving such, especially Holy Communion.

So that leaves out any idea that "man of sin" would involve a Christian who professes Christ Jesus, especially since John defined meaning of the word antichrist being about one who denies Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, denying both The Father and The Son.

So at best, if a flesh man, that "man of sin" would have to be allied with Satan directly, one of his servants. Or it could mean Satan himself as that "man of sin", especially since Satan has already been judged and sentenced to perdition in the future lake of fire, and Apollyon is one of his many titles. And our Lord in His Revelation does point directly to Satan as the "dragon"; and it's the "dragon" that is to work the great signs and wonders or miracles in Rev.13 that our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul in 2 Thess.2:9-10.

Moreover, that act of 2 Thess.2:3-4 of sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, is directly pointing to the very first sin by Satan at his original rebellion (Ezek.28; Isaiah 14). So I think The LORD and His Apostles made it very plain who that "man of sin" will be; Satan himself, coming to the earth to play God.



A constant theme in your comments is the idea of a supernatural Satan?

If I am right? I am yet to find anyone who can scriptually support such a teaching. If so I would like to discuss with you this teaching which I personally believe is false.

I feel I could not go forward with the Man of Sin study on the basis of a Supernatural Satan.

Alethos
 

veteran

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A constant theme in your comments is the idea of a supernatural Satan?

If I am right? I am yet to find anyone who can scriptually support such a teaching. If so I would like to discuss with you this teaching which I personally believe is false.

I feel I could not go forward with the Man of Sin study on the basis of a Supernatural Satan.

Alethos

It's not my theme brother, it is God's Word.

All the pointers in God's Word to the false one that is coming for the end, point directly to the Devil himself. It's like I said, some simpy choose to not believe it.

Rev 12:9-13
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
(KJV)


You know what's specific about that particular casting of Satan down to the earth? It's given with the event of his seeing he is cast down to this earth, and then goes to persecute the symbolic 'woman' Israel. Israel did not yet exist at Satan's original rebellion of old, and that's another way to know that casting down of those verses are for the last days, and not any other.

So good luck with your attempts.


 

revturmoil

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It’s a movement, whatever it is and it’s no doubt in my mind Christian.



Let's see. You don't know what it is but have no doubt in your mind it's Christian?!

How do you pull Christian out of these definitions?!


This is the word Satan...
1)
adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to


a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

The word antichrist is...

The adversary of the Messiah. It also means against or instead of Christ.

I feel I could not go forward with the Man of Sin study on the basis of a Supernatural Satan.
Do you think Satan is just a "natural kind of guy"?

You're making a big deal about nothing. Everything about God and everything were talking about is supernatural since it has to do with the Spirit or the spirit world. All of it is supenatural to the physical sense and that especially includes the one who is the prince of evil spirits. The one you're talking about.

 

WhiteKnuckle

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Couldn't the "man of sin" be a normal man that's possesed? Or possibly a very evil man that has no problem turning his power over?

Obviously, people had no problem calling Obama the AntiChrist, same with a few other presidents. It doesn't seem so far fetched.
 

Alethos

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Couldn't the "man of sin" be a normal man that's possesed? Or possibly a very evil man that has no problem turning his power over?

Obviously, people had no problem calling Obama the AntiChrist, same with a few other presidents. It doesn't seem so far fetched.

You quote Obama???

And yet he is a Christian, a former member of the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago.

Alethos

Mother Harlot and her daughters...so many religions :( but only one hope one faith and one baptism :rolleyes:
 

veteran

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Considering the supernatural (time to put the children to bed)...

Gen 19:1-5
1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

Two angels appear to Lot in the evening. Lot sees them, bows to them, and speaks with them...


2 And he said, "Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways." And they said, "Nay; but we will abide in the street all night."
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Lot makes a feast for the two angels, and they did eat. We're not yet told what the two angels looked like, whether they were luminous, or had bird wings on their backs, etc. But that will be settled in the next verses...


4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
(KJV)

Not only Lot saw the two angels, but so did the sodomites of the city see the two "men" enter into Lot's house. So, the two angels had the appearance and image likeness of 'man'. The sodomites show they thought the two angels were like other men, and wanted to 'know' them in the Biblical sense.

Gen 19:11-13
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 And the men said unto Lot, "Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it."
(KJV)


Not only did those two angels that appeared as men have supernatural power to cause literal blindness upon the sodomites, but God had given them supernatural power to destroy the city also.

Has Hollywood missed all this with its portrayals of supernatural subjects? Per God's Word, angels can, and have, appeared to flesh man. And, they can eat our food, and sit down and converse with flesh man. There is no Biblical evidence that angels have to somehow take on flesh bodies to appear on earth.

One of my favorite examples...

II Kings 6:15-17
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, "Alas, my master! how shall we do?"

The servant of God's prophet Elisha had got up that morning and saw the armies of Syria gathered around the house.

16 And he answered, "Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them."
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see." And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
(KJV)

Elisha then prayed to The Father that He would allow the servant to see the army of angels that were round about Elisha.

That example especially, shows there is a veil between the earthly and the heavenly order of things, but neither is strange to its own realm. The heavenly realm is just as real as our earthly realm. It's simply of a different dimension order.

Just as we know there are radio waves passing through the air around us but we are not aware of them, we know they exist when turning on a radio that translates those waves for our flesh senses. That example with Elisha's servant is about God doing the translating of those angels behind a veil so he could see them with his flesh senses. It was not a dream that he saw, not a vision upon a transparent hidden movie screen, they were there, and they were real.

Confusion of not understanding about those type events come from fear of the unknown. The wicked and unbelieving like to think they are in power and control of their lives and this earth. With all of man's science and philosophy they think they've mastered this life and in doing so have proven there is no God in Heaven. Nor do they believe God is watching events going on upon this earth, seeing what all peoples do. Elisha obviously knew that army of angels was there behind a thin veil.


Heb 13:2
2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
(KJV)


We are commanded to be hospitable to strangers, because you never know, they might be angels. That would mean they look just like we do.

Now then; what Biblical evidence is there that Satan himself cannot appear on earth with the image likeness of a 'man' as angels have done throughout God's Word? Those who refuse to believe that is possible most likely do not believe the Bible witnesses in God's Word about angelic appearances on earth either.
 

aspen

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So what if the majority of Revelation has already happened? What if we are in the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom of God in our hearts and we are simply waiting for Jesus to return? Guess you guys would have to get day jobs.......
 

veteran

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So what if the majority of Revelation has already happened? What if we are in the 1000 year reign of the Kingdom of God in our hearts and we are simply waiting for Jesus to return? Guess you guys would have to get day jobs.......

How can anyone even half-way learned in God's Holy Writ not see how different things are on earth today vs. how He has testified things will be after His Son returns to start His thousand years reign?

Has Christ returned today according to God's Holy Writ? No. Per some men's writing maybe, but not per God's Witness.

Has Christ gathered His saints to where He is, and are they reiging with Him over all the earth today? Nope. Per God's Word that gathering is to be a literal gathering to Him.

Is evil in the world subdued as God said it will be when Christ begins His thousand years reign, putting all His enemies under His feet? Nope.

Have all wars stopped on earth today, which is another sign of Christ's return? Nope.

Has the rebuke and persecutions of God's saints stopped like the Bible witnesses reveal when Christ returns? Nope. Instead persecution of His saints by the wicked is building today, getting worse.

Have any of Christ's saints still alive on earth in their flesh gone through the promised redemption of resurrection at Christ's return? Nope.

Have any of the Milennial events of Ezekiel 40 forward happenned yet today? Nope.

Has anyone seen Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem which is prophesied to occur at His return per Acts 1 and Zech.14? Nope.

It's not difficult to understand the difference between those events God said will happen vs. doctrines of men that want to deny them. Who do we believe, God or man? I choose to believe God in His Word.
 

aspen

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How can anyone even half-way learned in God's Holy Writ not see how different things are on earth today vs. how He has testified things will be after His Son returns to start His thousand years reign?

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I am glad you asked!

Jesus told us that the Kingdom of God will be in our hearts - this has been true for over two thousand years - Jesus has reigned! We are simply waiting for him to return to take us home.

Waiting for a military leader is to commit the same wrong as the Jewish people - who could not recognize Jesus.

 

veteran

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I am glad you asked!

Jesus told us that the Kingdom of God will be in our hearts - this has been true for over two thousand years - Jesus has reigned! We are simply waiting for him to return to take us home.

Waiting for a military leader is to commit the same wrong as the Jewish people - who could not recognize Jesus.


Our Lord Jesus also promised a literal redemption of His saints at His return also, and that has not happenned yet today. His Kingdom will then not just be in our hearts only, but literally established on this earth also, one with literal substance.

Take heed. A test upon many is coming first. The time is short.
 

aspen

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Our Lord Jesus also promised a literal redemption of His saints at His return also, and that has not happenned yet today. His Kingdom will then not just be in our hearts only, but literally established on this earth also, one with literal substance.

Take heed. A test upon many is coming first. The time is short.

We will certainly be redeemed.....our sanctification has been happening for over two thousand years......those who refuse the justification and sanctification of the HS remain unredeemed, The doctrine of the rapture is less than 200 years old and built around 1 verse......even purgatory has more credibility.
 

veteran

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We will certainly be redeemed.....our sanctification has been happening for over two thousand years......those who refuse the justification and sanctification of the HS remain unredeemed, The doctrine of the rapture is less than 200 years old and built around 1 verse......even purgatory has more credibility.


So, do you believe Christ's second coming has already happenned?

And if so, then what are the Bible's prophetic events associated with His appearance on earth the second time?
 

Alethos

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How can anyone even half-way learned in God's Holy Writ not see how different things are on earth today vs. how He has testified things will be after His Son returns to start His thousand years reign?

Has Christ returned today according to God's Holy Writ? No. Per some men's writing maybe, but not per God's Witness.

Has Christ gathered His saints to where He is, and are they reiging with Him over all the earth today? Nope. Per God's Word that gathering is to be a literal gathering to Him.

Is evil in the world subdued as God said it will be when Christ begins His thousand years reign, putting all His enemies under His feet? Nope.

Have all wars stopped on earth today, which is another sign of Christ's return? Nope.

Has the rebuke and persecutions of God's saints stopped like the Bible witnesses reveal when Christ returns? Nope. Instead persecution of His saints by the wicked is building today, getting worse.

Have any of Christ's saints still alive on earth in their flesh gone through the promised redemption of resurrection at Christ's return? Nope.

Have any of the Milennial events of Ezekiel 40 forward happenned yet today? Nope.

Has anyone seen Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem which is prophesied to occur at His return per Acts 1 and Zech.14? Nope.

It's not difficult to understand the difference between those events God said will happen vs. doctrines of men that want to deny them. Who do we believe, God or man? I choose to believe God in His Word.

Veteran....a very sound post.

Anyone who understands that many of the OT prophocies are yet to be fulfilled has a good grasp of Scripture.

Alethos
 

Foreigner

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We will certainly be redeemed.....our sanctification has been happening for over two thousand years......those who refuse the justification and sanctification of the HS remain unredeemed, The doctrine of the rapture is less than 200 years old and built around 1 verse......even purgatory has more credibility.


-- Actually, believe the Rapture or not, it is build around more than "one verse." And there are NO verses that support Purgatory.
 

Alethos

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I also believe the apostasy must be a movement, as it had its beginnings in the first century churches. Paul would not have called it a "falling away" in 2 Thess 2:3 if it were an external non Christian group.

I would also be interested in your thoughts about a "falling away"

Do you think 2 Thess 2:8 is speaking to a movement? And how does this relate to 2 Thess 2:7 "mystery of iniquity"?

I do find it interesting that the Roman Catholic Church was the only Christian Church after some 1400 years after the death of Christ. There were some smaller sects who arose during this time but they died out. They also didn’t exist at the time of Christ for at least some 400 years.

Only in our modern history have we seen a reformation from the RCC and now the Jesuits are staging a counter reformation.

Alethos
 

Alethos

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Is the man of sin a person or a succession of persons over a period of time?

I would be interested in your views. Pauls comment concerning the "mystery of iniquity" being at work during the time of the Apostle Paul 2 Thess. 2:7 I believe he points us in a certain direction.

Also, it reads like the "Man of Sin" is to takes us to "day of the Lord" so far a span of 1900 years at such time this man of sin will be destroyed by Jesus Christ see 2 Thess. 2:8, so he can’t be just one man, can he?

This “Man of Sin" is "seated in the temple of God" 2 Thess. 2:4 and is consumed by Jesus’ mouth 2 Thess. 2:8.

This type of language suggests the "Man of Sin" is a person maybe in the line of persons?

This may offend some who are Catholic in faith, but Popes have been a line of men. They existed for some 1400 years being the only Christian Church to survive while many others are gone.

I also acknowledge that a Pope will be reigning when Jesus returns and this presents some interesting questions?

How will they receive Jesus?

What will they expect of him, or will they believe he is an imposter (antichrist)?

Are we naive to think Jesus will accept all Christian religions in the earth?


Alethos