BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
"Unthinking" -- Here an insult, there an insult, everywhere an insult, insult. lol
The seed of Israel
- Thread starter robert derrick
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Since the New Covenant and the New Birth are clearly shown in Ezekiel, you are seriously mistaken. The New Covenant is ratified by the blood of Christ, which takes us to the Cross. Just because you cannot reconcile things which God has revealed does not mean that He cannot do so at the right time.
I hope you're not one of these Israel wannabes.
Zechariah 14:12 (NKJV)
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
You mention the fact that none from the tribe of Dan are mentioned among the 144,000 referred to in Rev 7: do you realise why?
After Jacob divided Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, when Jacob claimed Joseph's two sons as his own first and second born sons as were Reuben and Simeon, there were then thirteen tribes of Israel until the 12Th tribe 'Benjamin' was lost.
Jacob is now ungodly until the deliverer comes out of Zion in the future
Signed, Paul.
Some facts about the 12 tribes in Revelation:
The omission of the tribe of Dan: Why is Dan left out? Some think it is because Dan is the tribe of the Antichrist, based on Dan 11:37 and Jer 8:16. This may or may not be the case, but without doubt, Dan was the tribe which introduced idolatry into the nation of Israel (Gen 49:17; Jdg 18:30).
i. There is a wonderful redemption for the tribe of Dan. Dan is the first tribe listed in Ezekiel’s millennial role call of the tribes (Ezekiel 48).
d. The slighting of the tribe of Ephraim: This tribe is referred to, but only indirectly. The tribe of Joseph is mentioned, but Joseph was represented by two tribes: Ephraim and Manasseh. Since the tribe of Manasseh is mentioned, by elimination, the tribe of Joseph must mean the tribe of Ephraim - who is listed, but not by name.
i. Why is Ephraim slighted? Perhaps it is because the tribe of Ephraim was also associated with great idolatry (Hos 4:17).
e. It is often claimed that this list must be purely symbolic because it is “irregular.” But what is a “regular” listing of the tribes?
i. There are not less than 20 different ways of listing the tribes of Israel in the Old Testament, including one that omits the tribe of Dan (1 Chronicles 4-7).
ii. Just because a list is different doesn’t mean it is fanciful symbolism. It is proper to regard each of these lists as legitimate, and to consider that each specific variation serves a purpose, meaning to emphasize something.
3. Who are these 144,000?
a. Many different groups have claimed to be the 144,000. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses said their entire group was, until they surpassed 144,000 in number. Now they say that the 144,000 are only a select group of Witnesses who go to heaven.
i. Most scholars either regard the 144,000 as the church or as converted Jews, who are still identified as Israelites in some manner.
ii. It is an important issue. If they are symbol of the church, then the church is definitely in the Great Tribulation, but sealed for survival through the Great Tribulation.
b. Some facts about the 144,000 from Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 give us insight regarding their identity.
i. They are called the children of Israel (Rev 7:4).
ii. Their tribal affiliation is specific (Rev 7:4-8).
iii. They seem to be protected and triumphant through the period of God’s wrath, meeting with Jesus at Mount Zion at His return (Rev 14:1).
iv. They are celibate (Rev 14:4).
v. They are the beginning of a greater harvest (Rev 14:4).
vi. They are marked by integrity and faithfulness (Rev 14:5).
c. Taken together, these facts make it difficult to say that the 144,000 are a symbolic picture of the church.
i. Israel is a term never specifically applied to the church in the New Testament, and never by any Christian until 160 A.D.
ii. Their tribal affiliation is emphatic and known to God. Even if God only knows it, there is absolutely no reason to regard their tribal affiliation as symbolic, not literal.
iii. It is difficult to imagine the entire church surviving through the tribulation without martyrdom, and remaining celibate through the period, something that was never required for the church as a whole (1Co 7:1-6).
iv. If the 144,000 are a symbol of the entire church, what greater harvest are they the beginning of?
d. It is best to see the 144,000 as specifically chosen Jewish believers in Jesus, protectively sealed throughout the tribulation as a sign.
i. They are the beginning harvest of the salvation of Israel (Rom 11:1, Rom 11:26, Mat 23:37-39).
ii. “They are not a part of the Church proper; for their repentance comes too late for that. They are a superaddition to the Church - a supplementary body - near and precious to Christ, but made up after the proper Church has finished its course.” (Seiss)
The omission of the tribe of Dan: Why is Dan left out? Some think it is because Dan is the tribe of the Antichrist, based on Dan 11:37 and Jer 8:16. This may or may not be the case, but without doubt, Dan was the tribe which introduced idolatry into the nation of Israel (Gen 49:17; Jdg 18:30).
i. There is a wonderful redemption for the tribe of Dan. Dan is the first tribe listed in Ezekiel’s millennial role call of the tribes (Ezekiel 48).
d. The slighting of the tribe of Ephraim: This tribe is referred to, but only indirectly. The tribe of Joseph is mentioned, but Joseph was represented by two tribes: Ephraim and Manasseh. Since the tribe of Manasseh is mentioned, by elimination, the tribe of Joseph must mean the tribe of Ephraim - who is listed, but not by name.
i. Why is Ephraim slighted? Perhaps it is because the tribe of Ephraim was also associated with great idolatry (Hos 4:17).
e. It is often claimed that this list must be purely symbolic because it is “irregular.” But what is a “regular” listing of the tribes?
i. There are not less than 20 different ways of listing the tribes of Israel in the Old Testament, including one that omits the tribe of Dan (1 Chronicles 4-7).
ii. Just because a list is different doesn’t mean it is fanciful symbolism. It is proper to regard each of these lists as legitimate, and to consider that each specific variation serves a purpose, meaning to emphasize something.
3. Who are these 144,000?
a. Many different groups have claimed to be the 144,000. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses said their entire group was, until they surpassed 144,000 in number. Now they say that the 144,000 are only a select group of Witnesses who go to heaven.
i. Most scholars either regard the 144,000 as the church or as converted Jews, who are still identified as Israelites in some manner.
ii. It is an important issue. If they are symbol of the church, then the church is definitely in the Great Tribulation, but sealed for survival through the Great Tribulation.
b. Some facts about the 144,000 from Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 give us insight regarding their identity.
i. They are called the children of Israel (Rev 7:4).
ii. Their tribal affiliation is specific (Rev 7:4-8).
iii. They seem to be protected and triumphant through the period of God’s wrath, meeting with Jesus at Mount Zion at His return (Rev 14:1).
iv. They are celibate (Rev 14:4).
v. They are the beginning of a greater harvest (Rev 14:4).
vi. They are marked by integrity and faithfulness (Rev 14:5).
c. Taken together, these facts make it difficult to say that the 144,000 are a symbolic picture of the church.
i. Israel is a term never specifically applied to the church in the New Testament, and never by any Christian until 160 A.D.
ii. Their tribal affiliation is emphatic and known to God. Even if God only knows it, there is absolutely no reason to regard their tribal affiliation as symbolic, not literal.
iii. It is difficult to imagine the entire church surviving through the tribulation without martyrdom, and remaining celibate through the period, something that was never required for the church as a whole (1Co 7:1-6).
iv. If the 144,000 are a symbol of the entire church, what greater harvest are they the beginning of?
d. It is best to see the 144,000 as specifically chosen Jewish believers in Jesus, protectively sealed throughout the tribulation as a sign.
i. They are the beginning harvest of the salvation of Israel (Rom 11:1, Rom 11:26, Mat 23:37-39).
ii. “They are not a part of the Church proper; for their repentance comes too late for that. They are a superaddition to the Church - a supplementary body - near and precious to Christ, but made up after the proper Church has finished its course.” (Seiss)
Matthew 10: 1-4; Why was Judas Iscariot, the 12 disciple to be chosen by Jesus, destined to be Lost?
Judges 20: 48; The Israelites turned back against the rest of the Benjaminites and killed them all — men, women, and children, and animals as well. They burnt every town in the area. All the women who belonged to the tribe of Benjamin, were butchered.
Judges 21: 6; The people of Israel felt sorry for their brothers the Benjaminites and said, “Today Israel has lost one of its tribes. 7What shall we do to provide wives for the men of Benjamin who are left? We have made a solemn promise to the LORD that we will not give them any of our daughters.”
The Hebrew name Iscariot, means Man of Kerioth (See Young's Analytical Concordance) After being released from captivity, the Pseudo tribe of Benjamin. which had been destroyed by his brothers tribes, were settled in Hazor-Kerioth.
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John 6:70; Then Jesus replied, "Have 'I' not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" Repeat: "Have ('I') not chosen you, etc.
Jesus chose the twelve, and the other eleven did not have the authority to chose the replacement for Judas of the pseudo-tribe of Benjamin, It was the glorified Jesus, who chose Saul, the son of a father from the pseudo-tribe of Benjamin, and a mother who was a Roman citizen, to gather in the required number of Roman gentiles to replace the 12,000 from Benjamin, the 12th tribe that was lost.
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Who was giving the sun for light and ordering the moon and stars, when Jesus was one earth? When he died?
The Father that remained in heaven.
The God if Israel that gave the sun to light and ordered the stars to shine in creation, and also made the covenant with the physical seed, died on he cross.
No covenant and not ordering the stars.
When He rose again, He did so with a new covenant for whosoever would believe, and orders the stars and sun and moon once again.
People who still think that carnal seed is still specially precious to God, because of their carnal birth, still think that the flesh profits something.
In the old covenant, the flesh profited everything by birth, by circumcision, by outward obedience to a carnal commandment, by earthly prosperity and power, by length of days on earth...
No, that flesh profits nothing: by birth, by blood, by circumcision: none of it has any profit with God anymore.
To still believe in a fleshy birth for promise of God is to reject Scripture, that the flesh profits nothing.
That was the change that the redeemer came to make on earth, and they had Him crucified for it.
An unbelieving carnal seed of man has no promise with the risen God of Israel. Neither does Abraham nor Isaac nor Jacob wish it to be so.
I think maybe something is wrong with your reasoning . . .
Luke 24:1-3 KJV
1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Day and night apparently still continued.
Much love!
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
What would God have to say?
Much love!
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
What would God have to say?
Much love!
I believe that the 144,000 are 12,000 taken from each of the 12 tribes listed in Revelation.
I believe that God has kept the ten tribes intact, as put forth by Jewish scribe Yair Davidiy.
I believe that the 144,000 are the bride of Christ.
I believe there are those who, if they could, would crucify me for saying this.
Oh well, you gotta go sometime! Lol
I believe that God has kept the ten tribes intact, as put forth by Jewish scribe Yair Davidiy.
I believe that the 144,000 are the bride of Christ.
I believe there are those who, if they could, would crucify me for saying this.
Oh well, you gotta go sometime! Lol
You are here trying to sneak in another equivalency.
There is no sneakiness in quoting Scripture. And there is no equivalency between the Israel of God and Israel after the flesh. Neither have anything to do with the other in things pertaining to God.
Those born after the flesh are not the promised people of God, and the Jews Religion is not the religion of God in Christ Jesus.
Israel after the flesh is in name only, and the Israel of God is all them grafted into the green olive tree of Israel and Judah:
But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
The body of Christ is the green olive tree in the House of God (1 Peter 2:5). No unbelieving physical seed on earth is as that green olive tree, but only them believing and grafted therein.
The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah.
That green olive tree is call by name of the Lord: the house of Israel and of Judah.
That is the olive tree all believers are grafted into. Or is there another holy olive tree of God we are grafted into?
The children of the Israel of God today are all believers in Christ Jesus, circumcised inwardly in the spirit, and walking in natural bodies after the Spirit.
There are not two holy olive trees of God on earth, no more than there are two seeds of promise of Abraham. (Gal 3:16)
That green olive tree of God was broken of all it's branches, when all them born of the flesh were concluded in unbelief. There was none righteous before the Lord on earth, no, not one of faith at all: Jesus prophesied they would ALL forsake Him.
On this part . . . I think they are gathered to Mount Zion, and translated into heaven to stand before the throne on that glassy sea, in the middle of the week.
Much love!
If the 12 tribes of Rev 7, are supposed to be the 12 tribes of physical Israel written on the stones of Aaron's breastplate, then Scripture has broken itself into pieces.
Dan was written on one of those stones and is not names in Rev 12.
The tribes are obviously not the same.
The resurrected body of Christ is mothered by the bride of Christ: New Jerusalem.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Gal 4)
Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. (Rev 21)
Scripture will always tell us what God's mystery is.
The God of Israel came down from heaven, which He measured from the beginning, and died on the cross, and searched out all the earth beneath, preaching to the spirits in prison for three days, until He resurrected with a new covenant and seed of promise and people of God and of the Israel of God.
That's what Scripture says, and so what God says.
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