The harlot's deception of the nations
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And today Jerusalem, the holy city, is the church.
The other city (which you are referring to) is called "Sodom and Egypt" by Jesus in His Revelation to the churches.
The word holy means to be set apart unto God. (That's no longer the Jerusalem you are referring to).
Simply, they are the ten Horns, The Principalities (Angels) that control the ten regions around this beast. Like the "prince of Persia" who withstood Gabriel in Daniel.
SO?????
Even in the Catholic Study Edition of the Good News Bible, (1 Peter 5:13; Your sister church in Babylon,) have written in the margins: "Babylon: As in the book of Revelation, this probably refers to Rome."
So I'll go along with the Catholics in this instance, and accept that the mystery Babylon referred to in Revelation, is the great prostitute that sits on the seven hills of Rome, and that the Lord calls out to the people who have been caught up in her falsehoods.
Come out of her my people do not share in her sins
You must not share her punishment her judgement day has come
Her sins are piled to heaven and God recalls her evil ways
She says "I am no widow and I'll never see the grave
Because of that in just one day, disease will strike her down'
Plagues and famine she'll receive til finally she'll be burned
You must pay her back twofold for all that she has done
Fill her cup as she filled yours, but make it twice as strong
For all the glory she has claimed and all her luxury
Must be repaid this very day with pain and misery.
During his reign, Herod the Great built many massive fortresses and splendid cities, amphitheatres, and hippodromes for the Grecian games inaugurated in honour of Augustus, but his most grandiose creation was the Temple in Jerusalem.
The Zerubabbel temple which was small, run down, and dilapidated, around which, Herod the Great built his magnificent temple that outshone all the temples and palaces in Rome, was destroyed, when the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem. destroying the beautiful Temple of Herod the Great in 70 A.D.
THE GREAT TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM, BUILT BY KING HEROD (womeninthebible.net)
Yet you expect everyone else to have the time and the inclination to answer the dozens or so statements you make, most of which is drivel taken from the spurious Book of Enoch, part of which you quote at length.
Don't you realize that this is a Christian forum which bases its discussions only on the record of the Word of God found in the Bible? Take your discussions about the book of Enoch and what it says to the Controversial Issues Board, if you don't mind.
One short answer to all the drivel you posted: The Bible (in the Old Testament and the New) teaches that Jesus is the Creator, and existed before the world ever was (I'm not going to quote any scriptures here, even though I can, lest you accuse me of what you accused @David in NJ of).
Enoch is a creature, a descendant of Adam, who was created.
Your assertions are blasphemous.
PS: I'm not getting into a discussion or debate about it with you in this thread. This is not the forum nor the thread for that. Go blaspheme somewhere else please.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
So I haven't read every single contribution to this thread, because after the first two pages I had seen enough to realize that most here are overlooking the basics. There are three basic points I think we need to cleave to in communion with understanding prophecy.
KJV Daniel 7:12
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Thus in Revelation we have a beast comprising of those four empires spoken of in Daniel. Though those empires do not have dominion, their lives culturally, remain in the dominion of this new beast.
As for the whore, a woman, throughout scripture both OT and NT, women are symbolically used for the church, or God's people. In the OT it was Israel, in the new, the church. As Israel was for much of her existence, an apostate people, divorced from God and blending herself religiously and culturally with the nations that surrounded her, the prophets in many occasions charged her with adultery and unfaithfulness.
The whore, Babylon the Great, is no different, but is also described as a city, which strong suggests that while being a religious entity, once Christian but now apostate, is also a political entity, and clearly of a global extent rather than simply a local.
I'll leave things at that for anyone to comment, or debate any of the above.
- Everything under discussion is symbolic. The woman, the various beasts, the horns, mountains, and crowns.
- God wants us to understand, otherwise He wouldn't have showed John, Daniel, and Paul these prophecies.
- Because of the above desire of God in desiring so earnestly that we be fairly and clearly warned of the dangers imposed upon mankind by these various entities, we can be certain that those symbols are going to be...
- Easy to understand
- Consistent throughout all the prophecies and
- Applicable to specific entities without deviating from one prophecy to another.
- KJV Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. Those kings are the heads of kingdoms, and because those kingdoms survived in some cases several centuries, then the final conclusion to be drawn is that there are a succession of Kings are representative of the kingdoms they lead.
- KJV Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. This must also be consistent with the above, but because they grow from the head of the original beast, we can assume those kings are linked culturally, politically, and militarily to that original beast.
- Notice also that those beasts, the lion, the leopard, and the bear and 4th beast so terrible it is indescribable and incomparable to any living creature, are all predators.
KJV Daniel 7:12
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Thus in Revelation we have a beast comprising of those four empires spoken of in Daniel. Though those empires do not have dominion, their lives culturally, remain in the dominion of this new beast.
As for the whore, a woman, throughout scripture both OT and NT, women are symbolically used for the church, or God's people. In the OT it was Israel, in the new, the church. As Israel was for much of her existence, an apostate people, divorced from God and blending herself religiously and culturally with the nations that surrounded her, the prophets in many occasions charged her with adultery and unfaithfulness.
The whore, Babylon the Great, is no different, but is also described as a city, which strong suggests that while being a religious entity, once Christian but now apostate, is also a political entity, and clearly of a global extent rather than simply a local.
I'll leave things at that for anyone to comment, or debate any of the above.
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I liked the part until the word "and"
. The rest seems to have dropped off the bottom of your screen. Hope your desk isn't looking untidy now.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The above had a long edit so suggest reading again for update.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I'm always doing that. Get half way through a post on my phone then a stray finger hits the "post reply" button. This untimely event then warrants a quick edit, but in the meantime it gets read... Pity posts aren't uplifted from the thread while edits are made.I liked the part until the word "and"
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Mr Smarty Pants, When did the First Resurrection occur and the Thousand Year Reign with Christ?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Their are arrogant people on this thread who, through religious pride refuse to accept the Word of the Lord.
Jesus, Paul and John all say that the First Resurrection MUST take place BEFORE the Thousand Year Reign.
and as you highlighted - there is a CLEAR expiration of the Thousand Year Period where satan is free to 'gather the nations' a SECOND Time.
The spirit of error saturates religion and religious people claiming to know God.
That's why most of the time (but not always) I type it into a Notepad and then copy and paste it
Yes. Everything you wrote above is the understanding I have come to also, but just in case, I always keep my mind open to the possibility that I'm wrong about some aspect of it. But what you say makes total sense (and it would make total sense to me because those are the very things I have come to understand, although I was unsure of whether the whore was the church/a church (whatever church) or if Jerusalem on earth was still considered the harlot.
The word holy means to be set apart, to be sanctified. Since starting this thread I've remembered that whereas the New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation (Revelation 21:2 & 10; and Revelation 22:19), the Revelation calls Jerusalem on earth “Sodom and Egypt” (Revelation 11:8). Paul said she's in bondage with her children (Galatians 4:25).
So since the New Jerusalem is called the holy city three times in the Revelation, I think it would be really unlikely if the Revelation called Jerusalem on the earth both "the holy city" and Sodom and Egypt in the same passage (Revelation 11:2 compared with Revelation 11:8).
All three cities (Jerusalem on earth, the New Jerusalem, and Babylon the Great) are called "the great city" or "that great city" in the Revelation, but only the New Jerusalem is called the holy city.
Definitely I believe you are correct about the fact that the symbolism in the Revelation viz beasts and horns is not going to be any different to the symbolism in the rest of the Bible, i.e the book of Daniel.
PS: Most of this post was typed into a notepad and copied and pasted
I'd like to know what he's saying, because that's what I got too - and he said Enoch is the heir of God's throne in the creation, which I find blasphemous. Christ is the only heir. Those in Christ will share with Him in His inheritance. Christ is the Creator. Christ is God. Christ was before all things and is from everlasting. Enoch is a creature - a descendant of Adam, who was created. So the Book of Enoch takes the status and inheritance that is Christ's alone and gives it to Enoch?
Either that or he's saying that Christ has usurped Enoch, or that Christ is Enoch... who knows? his post is a convoluted mess.
Either scripture produces theology or theology will produce scripture (the same scripture but a different message). Most of the time it's upside-down, and it's been that way for a very long time, probably within a few hundred years following the apostles' time.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Do you now see the confidence i stand in - It is NOT in men and religion by which i say the things that i say.
But by the Power of God through Salvation and the Holy Spirit in obedience to the Word of God.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21: 8
These Words will be shear Terror on the Day of Judgement.
i kneel before Him who spoke them and continually pray that He would keep me from the spirit of error, pride and religion.
And i know HE WILL - Amen
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Metaphors Matter.
Without them we would struggle to describe the aspects, behaviours, and characterisitics of things.
Anywhere that corruption, confusion, and chaos reside is Babylon, and her offspring are ever with her.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
None of this is from Scripture. The author of Hebrews had the Holy Spirit guidance. He did not need to read Enoch.
Jesus was God in flesh at conception by the Holy Spirit. What you claim happened at the baptism, is not a proper interpretation of any verse you may have quoted.
Enoch was translated, and came back as Elijah. Elijah left again.
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