Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

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Duckybill

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The everlasting fire is a very real place, and as EVERLASTING tells us it is indeed permanent.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
 

Alethos

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First what is the LJC?

Second - if this is true then our conversation is over because you have finally been honest enough to state that you are the only person here with the correct understanding of the devil and everyone else who disagrees with your interpretation is wrong. Based on this idea, it is impossible for us to learn from each other - you are here to convert people to your POV - period. It is too bad I wasted so much time trying to have a discussion with you.

LJC = Lord Jesus Christ, this is his evevated name one which speaks of his gloroius position in the Heavens, sitting along (right) side His Father in Glory. James uses it in James chapter 2 when speaking of showing favouortism in the house of God. Its a term whcih lifts our minds upwards!

You are already converted to the LJC Aspen. So your conversion is not required here! Only to expand your understanding of how that conversion has taken place and what Christ achieved to bring about your conversion.

Understanding the victory of the LJC is paramount in understanding the devil and satan - the whole purpose of him coming was to destroy it! 1 John 3:8. It might not be the way you thought he would be destroyed, you might not have thought satan = flesh and sin but this is how the scriptures have presented them.

  • Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).
  • Jesus "knew no sin". "In him is no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 3:5).
  • Jesus "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).
  • Jesus is "Holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
But lets not talk about his victory (Heb 2:14 1 John 3:8) over the devil. If you prefer to believe in fallen angels who can sin (Rom 6:23) but for some reason your angels can sin and NOT die :blink: which presents major injustice on Gods part because He inflicts death on "us" under His law! but on His angels he allows them free reign :wacko: .

It actually impossbile to reconcile this fact!

Aspen...if you noticed I placed numerous scriptures to support not my POV but Bible truth. Its the honour of Kings to search out a matter, so I will leave with you to read over the posts, check the verses etc.

Alethos
 

Guestman

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Correct - You can have a good satan! :)



Correct - You can have a good satan speaking of humans standing in the way of others for thier benefit.:)



The good old jump to the New Testament and off on some unscriptural tangent! :blink: :wacko:



Moving further away from truth now. Notice those reading how ONLY Job 1 & Rev 12 is cited to support the fantastical demonic being that apparently rules in some unknown place of darkness.

You cannot prove the satan and devil from the Old Testament because the greek meaning is missunderstood in the New!



Read John 8 again and expound how this is speaking to a supernatural fallen angel! Show me in the beginning exactly where your satan is mentioned? I am staggered a person of your intellect can swallow such falsehood - everything above is totally inferred without scriptural support.



Theres only confusing here people. "there seems to be," in other words I dont know how to reconcile these passages.



Prove the satan spoke through the serpent?

Its an animal which spoke, how can you even suggest such a leap of unfounded belief in your above statement?



You started out with truth.
You ended up with lies.

If only you applied your initial understanding to those other scriptures, before wresting them away you could better understand the Bible, and its message.

For those who are reading this you can take a very sound observation from the above, The beginning of Gods Book the satan and devil are absolutely silent...cannot be found! As we travel through the book we get to Job, where, what do you know the supernatural being appears out of nowhere! Then we move further through its pages towards the Revelation and yes that’s where satan and the devil present themselves.

So let’s quote Revelation a highly symbolic book and add some real colourful language like "We are living deep into the "last days" or "time of the end", and therefore Satan has greater anger than ever before, for he realizes that he a very "short period of time" to continue seducing the "world"

Oh so satan is angry? Is this the only time he is angry? At the end of the book? He is not angry in Job? There he is having a very peaceful conversation with God almost like they are friends.

Alethos

ps You would be better to speak to a single verse, which you believe supports the supernatural devil rather than inferring a belief over the whole writ. Here you are trying to force and understanding into the Word rather than allowing the Word to teach.

You act if you are master and others are the pupils. You discount any valid evidence from the Bible and just say that a person is just plain wrong and you are right, without any solid evidence. This is no different than the religious leaders that opposed Jesus, who condemned him at almost every turn without so much as a drop of facts.(Matt 12:1-7)

The apostle Paul wrote that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for discipling in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) Thus, the sixty-six books of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, is inspired by God that can be used for "teaching...setting things straight....that the man of God may be fully competent." There is no division in the Bible of an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament", for the Bible is all one complete book, so that whether a Scripture is from Genesis to Revelation, this is God's word.

Jesus clearly recognized that Satan was not an imaginary person but was real, having been with him in the spirit realm before Satan's defection. Forty days after his baptism in the Jordan River, Jesus met up with him. At Matthew 4:1, it says that Jesus was "tempted by the Devil" and subsequently was tried by him three times unsuccessfully before "the Devil left him."(Matt 4:11) If "satan" and the "devil" were "sinful tendencies, that would make Jesus a sinner and unqualified to serve as a "ransom" for mankind. This does not correlate with Scripture, for the apostle Peter wrote that Jesus "committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."(1 Pet 2:22)

In providing the definitive person of who the "original serpent" is at Genesis 3, Revelation 12:9 says that "down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan." Thus, this clarifies who the "serpent" is at Genesis 3. This is clear as it needs to be. Whether you accept what the says or not, is your decision. This does not alter the facts concerning who Satan is, a deceiver, who apparently has you fooled.

At John 8:44, Jesus said that the hard-hearted and unreasonable Jews were "from your father the Devil" for these imitated him, like a son does of his father. Satan was once among God's faithful angels but chose to leave in order to have humans worship him, including that of Jesus.(Luke 4:7) He has succeeded for the most part, for he "is misleading the entire inhabited earth".(Rev 12:9) Just as he has you fooled, so likewise of the vast majority of mankind.

You are pretty haughty to make such a statement that "You started out with truth. You ended with lies". That's called being arrogant. You think that you hold the monopoly on "truth", even convincing yourself by using the name "truth" as your username. Again this is no different than the religious leaders of Jesus day, who never recognized him as God's "anointed one" or Messiah, but opposed down to the last.(John 9:24)

Because most fail to grasp that God's kingdom was established in heaven in 1914, few recognize that Satan is indeed angry because his time left is now severely limited. Jesus used a Greek word that has great meaning to sincere Bible student - sy·ni´e·mi (which means literally "to put the pieces together", used 6 times in Matthew 13). He further said that the Bible's understanding is "hidden....from the wise and intellectual ones and (is) revealed to babes."(Matt 11:25) Only babe-like or teachable individuals can begin to "put the pieces together" regarding who Satan really is.
 

Alethos

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You act if you are master and others are the pupils. You discount any valid evidence from the Bible and just say that a person is just plain wrong and you are right, without any solid evidence. This is no different than the religious leaders that opposed Jesus, who condemned him at almost every turn without so much as a drop of facts.(Matt 12:1-7)

The apostle Paul wrote that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for discipling in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) Thus, the sixty-six books of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, is inspired by God that can be used for "teaching...setting things straight....that the man of God may be fully competent." There is no division in the Bible of an "Old Testament" and a "New Testament", for the Bible is all one complete book, so that whether a Scripture is from Genesis to Revelation, this is God's word.

Jesus clearly recognized that Satan was not an imaginary person but was real, having been with him in the spirit realm before Satan's defection. Forty days after his baptism in the Jordan River, Jesus met up with him. At Matthew 4:1, it says that Jesus was "tempted by the Devil" and subsequently was tried by him three times unsuccessfully before "the Devil left him."(Matt 4:11) If "satan" and the "devil" were "sinful tendencies, that would make Jesus a sinner and unqualified to serve as a "ransom" for mankind. This does not correlate with Scripture, for the apostle Peter wrote that Jesus "committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth."(1 Pet 2:22)

Can you prove from Matt 4

1. A fallen angel
2. A demonic being ruling in darkness, whereever that may be?
3. Provide scriptual evidence

I will wait for you to be the teacher and I can be your pupil.

I dont mind you know..if its truth it will be plainly obvoius to all you read.

In providing the definitive person of who the "original serpent" is at Genesis 3, Revelation 12:9 says that "down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan." Thus, this clarifies who the "serpent" is at Genesis 3. This is clear as it needs to be. Whether you accept what the says or not, is your decision. This does not alter the facts concerning who Satan is, a deceiver, who apparently has you fooled.

At John 8:44, Jesus said that the hard-hearted and unreasonable Jews were "from your father the Devil" for these imitated him, like a son does of his father. Satan was once among God's faithful angels but chose to leave in order to have humans worship him, including that of Jesus.(Luke 4:7) He has succeeded for the most part, for he "is misleading the entire inhabited earth".(Rev 12:9) Just as he has you fooled, so likewise of the vast majority of mankind.

You are pretty haughty to make such a statement that "You started out with truth. You ended with lies". That's called being arrogant. You think that you hold the monopoly on "truth", even convincing yourself by using the name "truth" as your username. Again this is no different than the religious leaders of Jesus day, who never recognized him as God's "anointed one" or Messiah, but opposed down to the last.(John 9:24)

Because most fail to grasp that God's kingdom was established in heaven in 1914, few recognize that Satan is indeed angry because his time left is now severely limited. Jesus used a Greek word that has great meaning to sincere Bible student - sy·ni´e·mi (which means literally "to put the pieces together", used 6 times in Matthew 13). He further said that the Bible's understanding is "hidden....from the wise and intellectual ones and (is) revealed to babes."(Matt 11:25) Only babe-like or teachable individuals can begin to "put the pieces together" regarding who Satan really is.

It's not often I have agreed with Ducky - I think thats plain for all to see. But I am eager to see your evidence regarding 1914.

I have put together well over 50 posts putting together exactly the true nature of satan and devil. Some have learned...some have not.

Heb 2:14 - 1 John 3:8 2 Peter 2:4

All teach your devil or devils are chained in darkness held powerless, and are in actual fact dead to Jesus Christ having destroy him and his works through his death.

But to understand these verses you would need to know what satans and devils are!

But sadly you dont want to hear - if I started to speak church dogma's your ears would prick up but sadly truth is yet to reside in your heart "concerning" the devil and satan.

Alethos...my name is Shane but I love truth.

ps. The Pharisees viewed Jesus as arrogant also...they ended up killing him. "no man spoke like this man....
 

Alethos

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I am in a sharing mood this evening and stumbled upon a work written back in 1876 by an unknown reformist. They knew thier Bibles back then, it shows how far reaching the apostacy has travelled.

"Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those " men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1). In taking this position, we are not unaware that apparent countenance is given to the doctrine in the Scriptures.Nay, it is because of this circumstance that it becomes worth while to attack the monster conceit, in order that conscientious minds, overshadowed with the nightmare of theology, may see that, as in other instances, the apparent sanction accorded by the Scriptures to a false doctrine is no sanction at all, but arises from a misconstruction under educational bias, of certain allusions to other agencies altogether."


In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. " The wages of sin is death "' (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle: death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:17) and He bestows it on the principle of obedience. Disobedience, which is sin, in every case He visits it with death. Therefore, the angels which, kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave),and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death) Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:2, 4); therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19); therefore Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land, and condemned to die (Deut. 32:48, 52); and, therefore, Uzzah was slain for harmlessly (humanly speaking) saving the ark from a fall (2 Sam. 6:6, 7); therefore "the man of God that came out of Judah" was torn by a lion for turning back, in disobedience to a divine command, to eat bread with another prophet, under the sincere impression that in so doing he was obeying the commands of the Almighty (1 Kings 13:1, 25). An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). No one can steal a march upon Him, so as to retain life and power in rebellion. " In His hand is the life of every living thing " (Job 12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him ; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death. Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John 3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels. God is not double in His modes of action. He is one. He is the same for ever and in all places. He does not act one way on the earth, and on another principle in the sun or other parts of His dominion ; His ways are wise, uniform, and unvarying. Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person : " for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning."
Alethos (Jer 6:16)
 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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I am in a sharing mood this evening and stumbled upon a work written back in 1876 by an unknown reformist. They knew thier Bibles back then, it shows how far reaching the apostacy has travelled.

"Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those " men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1). In taking this position, we are not unaware that apparent countenance is given to the doctrine in the Scriptures.Nay, it is because of this circumstance that it becomes worth while to attack the monster conceit, in order that conscientious minds, overshadowed with the nightmare of theology, may see that, as in other instances, the apparent sanction accorded by the Scriptures to a false doctrine is no sanction at all, but arises from a misconstruction under educational bias, of certain allusions to other agencies altogether."

In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. " The wages of sin is death "' (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle: death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:17) and He bestows it on the principle of obedience. Disobedience, which is sin, in every case He visits it with death. Therefore, the angels which, kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave),and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death) Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:2, 4); therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19); therefore Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land, and condemned to die (Deut. 32:48, 52); and, therefore, Uzzah was slain for harmlessly (humanly speaking) saving the ark from a fall (2 Sam. 6:6, 7); therefore "the man of God that came out of Judah" was torn by a lion for turning back, in disobedience to a divine command, to eat bread with another prophet, under the sincere impression that in so doing he was obeying the commands of the Almighty (1 Kings 13:1, 25). An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). No one can steal a march upon Him, so as to retain life and power in rebellion. " In His hand is the life of every living thing " (Job 12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him ; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death. Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John 3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels. God is not double in His modes of action. He is one. He is the same for ever and in all places. He does not act one way on the earth, and on another principle in the sun or other parts of His dominion ; His ways are wise, uniform, and unvarying. Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person : " for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning."
Alethos (Jer 6:16)

You deny the devil's existence and then you quote Scripture about him. Contradiction.

 

Guestman

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1914? Scripture please.


The year 1914 can be discerned by evidence in the Bible. As an example of a date that is not specifically in the Bible, is the year in which Jesus became the Messiah or Christ. At Daniel 9:24, 25, it pinpoints the date of his arrival as the Christ, for it says that "there are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks."

When was the "going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah the Leader" ? According to the Bible writer Nehemiah, the word went forth to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem “in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king.” (Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8) Historians confirm that the year 474 B.C.E. was Artaxerxes’ first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455 B.C.E. Now we have the starting point for Daniel’s Messianic prophecy, that is, 455 B.C.E.

Daniel provides how long the time period leading to the arrival of “Messiah the Leader” would last. The prophecy mentions “seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks”—a total of 69 weeks. How long is this period of time ? Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10, 11) Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years.

All we must do is count. If we count from 455 B.C.E., 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when Jesus was baptized and became the Messiah ! (Luke 3:1, 2, 21, 22) At this time, some of the Jews were expecting the Messiah, such as the Samaritan woman, who told the men of the city: "Come here, see a man that told me all the things I did. This is not perhaps the Christ, is it ?” (John 4:29) Furthermore, when John the Baptist was baptising in the Jordan river, Luke 3:15 says that "as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ ?” (John 3:15)

The date when John began his ministry is seen at Luke 3:1, which says that it was "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Ti·be´ri·us Caesar." Secular history has established Tiberius' ascension to the throne on September 15, 14 C.E., as a pivotal date. Thus, the "fifteenth year " of his reign was from September 28 C.E. to August 29 C.E. Shortly after John began his ministerial work, Jesus approached him to be baptised by him and hence then became the Christ, in 29 C.E. However, the religious leaders did not discern the timing of Jesus as Christ, for Jesus told them: "When evening falls you are accustomed to say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red’; and at morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red, but gloomy-looking.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret."(Matt 16:1-3)

Likewise of Jesus enthronement as king of God's kingdom in 1914 that began his invisible "presence".(Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39) Most cannot or will not examine the evidence to determine the critical time period we are living in. The apostle Peter wrote: "Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing you, in which, as in my first one, I am arousing your clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder....For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his ? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”(2 Pet 3:1, 3, 4)

Jesus gave features of the "sign of (his) presence" at Matthew 24:4-14., in which four of Jesus apostles asked him: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?”(Matt 24:3) The King James Bible renders the Greek word pa·rou·si´a as "coming" at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, and 39 instead of "presence". However, this Greek word is rendered as "presence" at Philippians 2:12 because a contrast is seen, saying: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence (pa·rou·si´a) only, but now much more in my absence (apousia), work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(King James Bible) The base Greek word for "coming" is erchomai, as seen at Matthew 24:30.

At Matthew 24:7, 8, Jesus says that the beginning of his invisible "presence" in kingdom power would be seen by "nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." Just as signs serve to help a person lead them to their desired location, and is not the location, so likewise of the "sign" that Jesus gave to determine when he would be enthroned as king, is made of up several features, such as "nation against nation...food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another", with these events being showing the starting time of his invisible "presence" as king of God's kingdom, as the "beginning of pangs of distress".

Revelation 6 provides more details, for at verse 2, it says that a "white horse" has rider that is given a "crown", and that he goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Who is given a "crown" that represents ruling authority ? Revelation 19:11 says that Jesus is riding upon a "white horse", which stands for righteous warfare. Also, Daniel 7:13, 14 says that in heaven "someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him." This "son of man" is no other than Jesus Christ receiving the right to rule God's kingdom.

However, immediately upon receiving kingdom power, what then happens ? Revelation 6:4 says that "a fiery-colored horse (came forth); and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him." What does this picture ? Global warfare. When was the first time that entire earth was involved in war, that 'peace was taken away from the earth' ? WWI, that started as a result of a young Serbian, Gavrilo Princip, assassinating the Arch-Duke of Austria-Hungary, Francis Ferdinand, on June 28, 1914, that erupted into world war a little over a month later, and eventually involved 93 percent of the world's population.

In addition, at the parallel account at Luke 21, Jesus said that "pestilences" would also mark the "beginning of pangs of distress".(Luke 21:11) A few months before the end of World War I, there broke out a pestilence, that mankind has never seen the likes of before - the Spanish Influenza, in March 1918. It killed more people in approximately 18 months than all that died during World War I, some 13 million, and epidemiologists estimate that perhaps 50 to upwards 100 million people died during 1918-19 because of the Spanish Flu, "the most destructive in recorded history".(2005 Encarta Encyclopedia)

Thus, those who are willing to "put the pieces together"(Greek sy·ni´e·mi ) can discern that the year 1914 was when Jesus was enthroned as king of God's kingdom, but unseen by any human eyes, but discernable by piecing together the different features of "sign of (Jesus) presence" and the other interconnected Scriptures. Most cannot or will be recognize this critical date. Jesus said that "just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."(Matt 24:27, 28) An eagle's eyes have around 1 million light-sensitive cells per square millimeter of retina, while humans only have about 200,000 cells. Ornithologists state that an eagle can spot a moving rabbit from about a mile away. If the eagle is flying 1,000 feet high in the sky, it's believed it can spot prey over about three square miles.

Thus, only those who are like "eagles", having spiritually keen eyesight or discernment will recognize when Jesus was made king of God's kingdom, whereas the masses of those who call themselves "Christian" will not. That is why Jesus gave features of the "sign of (his invisible) presence" at Matthew 24:7, 8, for only by understanding the features of this "sign" can a person grasp when Jesus became king unseen to the human eye.
 

Duckybill

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Interesting Guestman, did you figure all that out yourself, or did you get it somewhere else?
 

whitestone

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I am in a sharing mood this evening and stumbled upon a work written back in 1876 by an unknown reformist. They knew thier Bibles back then, it shows how far reaching the apostacy has travelled.

"Now, we make bold at once to assert that the popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those " men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1). In taking this position, we are not unaware that apparent countenance is given to the doctrine in the Scriptures.Nay, it is because of this circumstance that it becomes worth while to attack the monster conceit, in order that conscientious minds, overshadowed with the nightmare of theology, may see that, as in other instances, the apparent sanction accorded by the Scriptures to a false doctrine is no sanction at all, but arises from a misconstruction under educational bias, of certain allusions to other agencies altogether."


In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. " The wages of sin is death "' (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle: death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:17) and He bestows it on the principle of obedience. Disobedience, which is sin, in every case He visits it with death. Therefore, the angels which, kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave),and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death) Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:2, 4); therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19); therefore Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land, and condemned to die (Deut. 32:48, 52); and, therefore, Uzzah was slain for harmlessly (humanly speaking) saving the ark from a fall (2 Sam. 6:6, 7); therefore "the man of God that came out of Judah" was torn by a lion for turning back, in disobedience to a divine command, to eat bread with another prophet, under the sincere impression that in so doing he was obeying the commands of the Almighty (1 Kings 13:1, 25). An immortal rebel is an impossibility. With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). No one can steal a march upon Him, so as to retain life and power in rebellion. " In His hand is the life of every living thing " (Job 12:10), and He cuts away the life that is lifted against Him ; He consigns all disobedience and sin to death. Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in case of the devil? The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John 3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal. God is no respecter of persons, whether of men or angels. God is not double in His modes of action. He is one. He is the same for ever and in all places. He does not act one way on the earth, and on another principle in the sun or other parts of His dominion ; His ways are wise, uniform, and unvarying. Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person : " for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and must, therefore, have been mortal from the beginning."

Interesting. I don't meet many who understand this.

The year 1914 can be discerned by evidence in the Bible. As an example of a date that is not specifically in the Bible, is the year in which Jesus became the Messiah or Christ. At Daniel 9:24, 25, it pinpoints the date of his arrival as the Christ, for it says that "there are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks."

When was the "going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah the Leader" ? According to the Bible writer Nehemiah, the word went forth to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem “in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king.” (Nehemiah 2:1, 5-8) Historians confirm that the year 474 B.C.E. was Artaxerxes’ first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455 B.C.E. Now we have the starting point for Daniel’s Messianic prophecy, that is, 455 B.C.E.

Daniel provides how long the time period leading to the arrival of “Messiah the Leader” would last. The prophecy mentions “seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks”—a total of 69 weeks. How long is this period of time ? Several Bible translations note that these are, not weeks of seven days, but weeks of years. That is, each week represents seven years. This concept of weeks of years, or seven-year units, was familiar to Jews of ancient times. For instance, they observed a Sabbath year every seventh year. (Exodus 23:10, 11) Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years.

All we must do is count. If we count from 455 B.C.E., 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when Jesus was baptized and became the Messiah ! (Luke 3:1, 2, 21, 22) At this time, some of the Jews were expecting the Messiah, such as the Samaritan woman, who told the men of the city: "Come here, see a man that told me all the things I did. This is not perhaps the Christ, is it ?” (John 4:29) Furthermore, when John the Baptist was baptising in the Jordan river, Luke 3:15 says that "as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: “May he perhaps be the Christ ?” (John 3:15)

The date when John began his ministry is seen at Luke 3:1, which says that it was "in the fifteenth year of the reign of Ti·be´ri·us Caesar." Secular history has established Tiberius' ascension to the throne on September 15, 14 C.E., as a pivotal date. Thus, the "fifteenth year " of his reign was from September 28 C.E. to August 29 C.E. Shortly after John began his ministerial work, Jesus approached him to be baptised by him and hence then became the Christ, in 29 C.E. However, the religious leaders did not discern the timing of Jesus as Christ, for Jesus told them: "When evening falls you are accustomed to say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red’; and at morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red, but gloomy-looking.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret."(Matt 16:1-3)

Likewise of Jesus enthronement as king of God's kingdom in 1914 that began his invisible "presence".(Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39) Most cannot or will not examine the evidence to determine the critical time period we are living in. The apostle Peter wrote: "Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing you, in which, as in my first one, I am arousing your clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder....For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his ? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”(2 Pet 3:1, 3, 4)

Jesus gave features of the "sign of (his) presence" at Matthew 24:4-14., in which four of Jesus apostles asked him: "Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things ?”(Matt 24:3) The King James Bible renders the Greek word pa·rou·si´a as "coming" at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, and 39 instead of "presence". However, this Greek word is rendered as "presence" at Philippians 2:12 because a contrast is seen, saying: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence (pa·rou·si´a) only, but now much more in my absence (apousia), work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."(King James Bible) The base Greek word for "coming" is erchomai, as seen at Matthew 24:30.

At Matthew 24:7, 8, Jesus says that the beginning of his invisible "presence" in kingdom power would be seen by "nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." Just as signs serve to help a person lead them to their desired location, and is not the location, so likewise of the "sign" that Jesus gave to determine when he would be enthroned as king, is made of up several features, such as "nation against nation...food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another", with these events being showing the starting time of his invisible "presence" as king of God's kingdom, as the "beginning of pangs of distress".

Revelation 6 provides more details, for at verse 2, it says that a "white horse" has rider that is given a "crown", and that he goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Who is given a "crown" that represents ruling authority ? Revelation 19:11 says that Jesus is riding upon a "white horse", which stands for righteous warfare. Also, Daniel 7:13, 14 says that in heaven "someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him." This "son of man" is no other than Jesus Christ receiving the right to rule God's kingdom.

However, immediately upon receiving kingdom power, what then happens ? Revelation 6:4 says that "a fiery-colored horse (came forth); and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him." What does this picture ? Global warfare. When was the first time that entire earth was involved in war, that 'peace was taken away from the earth' ? WWI, that started as a result of a young Serbian, Gavrilo Princip, assassinating the Arch-Duke of Austria-Hungary, Francis Ferdinand, on June 28, 1914, that erupted into world war a little over a month later, and eventually involved 93 percent of the world's population.

In addition, at the parallel account at Luke 21, Jesus said that "pestilences" would also mark the "beginning of pangs of distress".(Luke 21:11) A few months before the end of World War I, there broke out a pestilence, that mankind has never seen the likes of before - the Spanish Influenza, in March 1918. It killed more people in approximately 18 months than all that died during World War I, some 13 million, and epidemiologists estimate that perhaps 50 to upwards 100 million people died during 1918-19 because of the Spanish Flu, "the most destructive in recorded history".(2005 Encarta Encyclopedia)

Thus, those who are willing to "put the pieces together"(Greek sy·ni´e·mi ) can discern that the year 1914 was when Jesus was enthroned as king of God's kingdom, but unseen by any human eyes, but discernable by piecing together the different features of "sign of (Jesus) presence" and the other interconnected Scriptures. Most cannot or will be recognize this critical date. Jesus said that "just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together."(Matt 24:27, 28) An eagle's eyes have around 1 million light-sensitive cells per square millimeter of retina, while humans only have about 200,000 cells. Ornithologists state that an eagle can spot a moving rabbit from about a mile away. If the eagle is flying 1,000 feet high in the sky, it's believed it can spot prey over about three square miles.

Thus, only those who are like "eagles", having spiritually keen eyesight or discernment will recognize when Jesus was made king of God's kingdom, whereas the masses of those who call themselves "Christian" will not. That is why Jesus gave features of the "sign of (his invisible) presence" at Matthew 24:7, 8, for only by understanding the features of this "sign" can a person grasp when Jesus became king unseen to the human eye.

You don't really believe this stuff do you? To you then, Christ's "coming" is all about laboring to extract dates related to worldly events? It sounds like somebody's face has been hidden in a watchtower tract...
 

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This is THE QUESTION of the ages. It's been asked millions of times by millions of people. But there has yet to be an answer.


It isn't a question of the ages at all. The practice of disrespecting God with phrased questions that are predetermined to failure has only been popular with the general population in the last decade. Although such questions have been asked by spiritually rebellious individuals since before Christ was crucified, I think that it hardly qualifies as some sort of illuminated query.

The new going cliche' is that "God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves." This sounds catchy, but how much truth really is there to this?

Quite a bit actually, but the tone of your question reduces an effective answer considerably. That was it's purpose in the first place, was it not?

I don't understand how Christians come up with the argument that God is not behind disaster and destruction, when it is as clear as day in Isaiah 45:7 alone...

Understanding comes by faith and acceptance of God. Since your phrasing appears to contain none of that, I've got to do the best with what I have....

The implication that God is 'behind a disaster' implies a judgment of some sort. That God is aware of a disaster does not necessarily mean that He caused it or that He wished it to happen. See (Luke 13:4) This is an narrative about an engineering disaster. It's actually quite similar to the type we read about every day in the twenty first century. The narrative asks whether those who are killed by a disaster have died by divine design. Jesus said no, but that something worse could befall a man if he did not repent and make peace with God.

Jesus said no. Did you read that part? The disaster in Luke and the Lord's answer to it implies that men can suffer and die because of their own stupidity, neglect or simple bad workmanship. The problem with accepting that logic is that it places the blame for such things squarely in the lap of man where it belongs.

In point of fact, there is only ONE PLACE in the Bible where God is made a scape goat for the sins of man; the cross.

I can already hear the blasphemy police coming. So, again, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious, I'm just being honest.


The religious bigot often uses the phrase "I'm just being honest" or "I just want to ask a question" to frame a disrespectful attack upon the faithful. It's the same sort of hypocrisy that one once heard in public when a man apologized for swearing by saying, "excuse my French." If there was no intent to disrespect, then why was it made?

I've noticed that there is a singluar inspiration for the reiteration of such logic as we see here, that which comes from the pit of hell and which is demonic in nature.

I am fairly certain that the poster is thoroughly convinced of his own cleverness and intellectual ability, but behind it all lies the inescapable imprint of the father of lies, deceit and murder. That is the way with those who are spiritually blind. They are indeed manipulated, but by the father of lies and not the God of grace. All the while they know it not, until it is far too late for them to escape the trap.
 

Guestman

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Can you prove from Matt 4

1. A fallen angel
2. A demonic being ruling in darkness, whereever that may be?
3. Provide scriptual evidence

I will wait for you to be the teacher and I can be your pupil.

I dont mind you know..if its truth it will be plainly obvoius to all you read.

I have already provided suffcient evidence of Satan's existence. At Revelation 12:9, it says following his defeat by Michael, that "down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him." And where are angels located ? Satan and his wicked angels were cast out of heaven, for Jesus said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18)

Jesus well knew Satan, telling his eleven faithful apostles on the night before his death: "I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me."(John 14:30) At Luke 4:6, after showing Jesus "all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time", Satan now says: "I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it." Thus, Satan is the "ruler of the world", diametrically opposed to God and his sovereignty.

You are well aware of Satan entering before Jehovah God himself (at Job 1 and 2), who resides in heaven, for he said: “The heavens are my throne."(Isa 66:1) And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's (heavenly) kingdom." Thus, no flesh and blood humans, but only spirits are able to enter into heaven before God.

At Genesis 3:15, it says that enmity or hatred would exist between the ' serpent's seed ' and the ' woman's seed'. This "serpent", Satan the Devil, is revealed at Revelation 12:9, as seen above. A poisonous serpent is cunning, striking when one least expects it. Satan and his wicked demon angels, were forcibly thrown out of heaven when Jesus became king in 1914, causing "woes" upon the earth.(Rev 12:12) Jesus, immediately upon receiving kingly authority (Dan 7:13, 14),"cleaned house" and tossed out "the garbage".

Hence, at Matthew 4, the matter of who Satan is, is already long established, as the arch-enemy of Jehovah God and his ' womanly ' organization.(Isa 60:1) Hatred or enmity between God's womanly "seed" and Satan's "seed" will continue (Rev 12:17) until the abyssing of Satan and his demons immediately following the battle of Armageddon.(Rev 20:1-3)
 

Alethos

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I have already provided suffcient evidence of Satan's existence. At Revelation 12:9, it says following his defeat by Michael, that "down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him." And where are angels located ? Satan and his wicked angels were cast out of heaven, for Jesus said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18)

Jesus well knew Satan, telling his eleven faithful apostles on the night before his death: "I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me."(John 14:30) At Luke 4:6, after showing Jesus "all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time", Satan now says: "I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it." Thus, Satan is the "ruler of the world", diametrically opposed to God and his sovereignty.

You are well aware of Satan entering before Jehovah God himself (at Job 1 and 2), who resides in heaven, for he said: “The heavens are my throne."(Isa 66:1) And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's (heavenly) kingdom." Thus, no flesh and blood humans, but only spirits are able to enter into heaven before God.

At Genesis 3:15, it says that enmity or hatred would exist between the ' serpent's seed ' and the ' woman's seed'. This "serpent", Satan the Devil, is revealed at Revelation 12:9, as seen above. A poisonous serpent is cunning, striking when one least expects it. Satan and his wicked demon angels, were forcibly thrown out of heaven when Jesus became king in 1914, causing "woes" upon the earth.(Rev 12:12) Jesus, immediately upon receiving kingly authority (Dan 7:13, 14),"cleaned house" and tossed out "the garbage".

Hence, at Matthew 4, the matter of who Satan is, is already long established, as the arch-enemy of Jehovah God and his ' womanly ' organization.(Isa 60:1) Hatred or enmity between God's womanly "seed" and Satan's "seed" will continue (Rev 12:17) until the abyssing of Satan and his demons immediately following the battle of Armageddon.(Rev 20:1-3)

Revelation 12:7-9

"And there was war in heaven . . . and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Firstly the devil (false accuser) of Rev. 12 is nowhere stated to be a fallen angel.

Important one might think?

Satan (the adversary) is a red dragon, not a fallen angel, and if the red-dragon is symbolic of a fallen angel, then proof that the “symbol” should be interpreted this way is required.

Please provide proof.

You must then state your fallen angel is inferred! Since it is not stated that such is the case in the passage.

You also need to keep in mind for all who believe supernatural Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of man, the Revelation was written about A.D. 96, and its contents are expressly stated to be about "things which were shortly {to} come to pass" (i.e. future of AD 96) Rev 1:1.

This text cannot support anything prior to AD 96.

Since the devil of this passage is a "great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Rev 12:3, 4),

Question: Is this, or is this not, a literal description of the fallen-angel devil?

Is this Dragon literal or figurative? Yes or no

Is the Heaven in verse Rev 12:1 literal of figurative? Yes or no

If you say yes, which I assume you must! to uphold your teaching!

Problem: The woman is clothed with the sun and the moon is under her feet, which would be a literal impossibility).

So you then are forced to also say this above women Rev 12:1 is also literal. Oh dear the problem gets bigger.

Again is the heaven in verse 3 the same Heaven in verse 1? Rev 12:1 & Rev 12:3

Guessman if you are consistent in your interpretation you would again say “yes”.

However, here is the issue you face where to you draw the line between that which is figurative and literal?

So Rev 12:1 & Rev 12:3 Rev 12:7 are they all the same Heaven? Yes or no

Which you must conclude all are figurative.

Once you look at Rev 12 and study its content you will very quickly come to understand the dragon and heaven are also figurative, then the war (Rev12:7) must also be figurative, since one cannot have a literal war when the locale and one of the combatants are figurative.

Not once does Jesus acknowledge Heaven to be the seat of angelic rebellion and subsequent war, since he taught his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10).

If Satan had access to heaven how then can God whose "purer eyes than to behold evil"? (Hab. 1:13; Psa 5:4). Could look upon such a demonic creature...impossible.

If the devil were a rebel angel against the will of God, what guarantee is there that believers be glorified with Christ, "made equal unto the angels" (Luke 20:35, 36) will not similarly rise against the authority of the Almighty once they have tasted the blessings of immortality?

The issue does or does not this passage teach the existence of a fallen-angel devil?

A resounding "no" if you look logically and closely at the text...and not assume a preconceived understanding.

Alethos

ps. I would very much like to show you the interpretation of Rev 12 but I am fearful you may not listen.
 

Guestman

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Revelation 12:7-9

"And there was war in heaven . . . and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Firstly the devil (false accuser) of Rev. 12 is nowhere stated to be a fallen angel.

Important one might think?

Satan (the adversary) is a red dragon, not a fallen angel, and if the red-dragon is symbolic of a fallen angel, then proof that the “symbol” should be interpreted this way is required.

Please provide proof.

You must then state your fallen angel is inferred! Since it is not stated that such is the case in the passage.

You also need to keep in mind for all who believe supernatural Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of man, the Revelation was written about A.D. 96, and its contents are expressly stated to be about "things which were shortly {to} come to pass" (i.e. future of AD 96) Rev 1:1.

This text cannot support anything prior to AD 96.

Since the devil of this passage is a "great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Rev 12:3, 4),

Question: Is this, or is this not, a literal description of the fallen-angel devil?

Is this Dragon literal or figurative? Yes or no

Is the Heaven in verse Rev 12:1 literal of figurative? Yes or no

If you say yes, which I assume you must! to uphold your teaching!

Problem: The woman is clothed with the sun and the moon is under her feet, which would be a literal impossibility).

So you then are forced to also say this above women Rev 12:1 is also literal. Oh dear the problem gets bigger.

Again is the heaven in verse 3 the same Heaven in verse 1? Rev 12:1 & Rev 12:3

Guessman if you are consistent in your interpretation you would again say “yes”.

However, here is the issue you face where to you draw the line between that which is figurative and literal?

So Rev 12:1 & Rev 12:3 Rev 12:7 are they all the same Heaven? Yes or no

Which you must conclude all are figurative.

Once you look at Rev 12 and study its content you will very quickly come to understand the dragon and heaven are also figurative, then the war (Rev12:7) must also be figurative, since one cannot have a literal war when the locale and one of the combatants are figurative.

Not once does Jesus acknowledge Heaven to be the seat of angelic rebellion and subsequent war, since he taught his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10).

If Satan had access to heaven how then can God whose "purer eyes than to behold evil"? (Hab. 1:13; Psa 5:4). Could look upon such a demonic creature...impossible.

If the devil were a rebel angel against the will of God, what guarantee is there that believers be glorified with Christ, "made equal unto the angels" (Luke 20:35, 36) will not similarly rise against the authority of the Almighty once they have tasted the blessings of immortality?

The issue does or does not this passage teach the existence of a fallen-angel devil?

A resounding "no" if you look logically and closely at the text...and not assume a preconceived understanding.

Alethos

ps. I would very much like to show you the interpretation of Rev 12 but I am fearful you may not listen.

For the Satan the Devil to remain existing down till our time would require that he be a spirit "son of God" or angel, for no human has lived longer than 969 years.(Gen 5:27) And before God created the first man Adam, when the foundation was laid for the earth, Jehovah God told Job: "Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth ?....When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God (Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., beneh´ ’Elo·him´; T, “the bands of angels”; LXX, “my angels.”) began shouting in applause ?"(Job 38:4, 7) These "sons of God" are angels, including the angel that later became Satan the Devil.

Second, for him to be in heaven and fight against Michael the archangel, Satan would have to be a former spirit son of God or angel.(Rev 12:7-9) He is among the angels that Jude spoke of, saying: "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he (Jehovah God) has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6)

In verse 9, Jude says that "Michael the archangel had a difference with the devil and was disputing about Moses body." Thus, Michael (meaning "Who is Like God") and Satan were thus disputing in the spirit realm. And it would require another powerful spirit "son of God" to abyss Satan immediately after Armageddon, for no human could accomplish this, with him still in existence and to be released from his "abysmal prison" a thousand years later.(Rev 20:1-3, 7)

The apostle Paul wrote concerning Satan, that "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light."(2 Cor 11:14) Hence, Satan (meaning "Resistor"), as an angel, tries to make himself as someone with good character, as an "angel of light". In addition, the corrupted angels that "did not keep their original position" in heaven as obedient "sons of God", are not under the command of some human, but under another rebellious angel, Satan.(2 Cor 12:7; compare Matt 12:24)

Too, no person on the earth is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", but it is seen, from both the accounts at Luke 4:6 and Revelation 12:9 that Satan, as an unseen wicked spirit or angel, is the one who is the source. The apostle John reiterates what Revelation 12:9 says: "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."(1 John 5:19) The Bible establishes Satan as the one who is designated as the "wicked one."

I will refrain from any further discussion on this, for it has been well established who Satan is, a wicked spirit "son of God" or angel that defected following the creation of Adam and Eve. Just as it was said of Jesus, that he did "not wrangle, nor cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the broad ways" (Matt 12:19), so likewise of I. There is no need to go into any more details, even regarding Satan being called a "dragon" (Greek dra´kon, depicting a terrifying monster, a serpentlike devourer and that occurs 13 times in the book of Revelation).
 

Alethos

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For the Satan the Devil to remain existing down till our time would require that he be a spirit "son of God" or angel, for no human has lived longer than 969 years.(Gen 5:27)

Prove he existed before Gen 1:1

And before God created the first man Adam, when the foundation was laid for the earth, Jehovah God told Job: "Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth ?....When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God (Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., beneh´ ’Elo·him´; T, “the bands of angels”; LXX, “my angels.”) began shouting in applause ?"(Job 38:4, 7) These "sons of God" are angels, including the angel that later became Satan the Devil.

See prevoius study on Job - so many unanswered questions awaiting your attention.

Second, for him to be in heaven and fight against Michael the archangel, Satan would have to be a former spirit son of God or angel.(Rev 12:7-9) He is among the angels that Jude spoke of, saying: "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he (Jehovah God) has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6)

Ignored all questions relating to Rev 12 whether figurative or literal? This shows all you avoided the questions becuase you know where it leads....no devil

In verse 9, Jude says that "Michael the archangel had a difference with the devil and was disputing about Moses body." Thus, Michael (meaning "Who is Like God") and Satan were thus disputing in the spirit realm. And it would require another powerful spirit "son of God" to abyss Satan immediately after Armageddon, for no human could accomplish this, with him still in existence and to be released from his "abysmal prison" a thousand years later.(Rev 20:1-3, 7)

Armageddon is a battle between nations no mention of your devil in Rev 16 or Joel 3 or Zech 12 -14

The apostle Paul wrote concerning Satan, that "Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light."(2 Cor 11:14) Hence, Satan (meaning "Resistor"), as an angel, tries to make himself as someone with good character, as an "angel of light". In addition, the corrupted angels that "did not keep their original position" in heaven as obedient "sons of God", are not under the command of some human, but under another rebellious angel, Satan.(2 Cor 12:7; compare Matt 12:24)

Dealt with 2 Corinth 11:14 already and still many questions there unanswered.

Too, no person on the earth is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", but it is seen, from both the accounts at Luke 4:6 and Revelation 12:9 that Satan, as an unseen wicked spirit or angel, is the one who is the source. The apostle John reiterates what Revelation 12:9 says: "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."(1 John 5:19) The Bible establishes Satan as the one who is designated as the "wicked one."

Prove this supernatural being has been given the title "wicked one"

I will refrain from any further discussion on this, for it has been well established who Satan is, a wicked spirit "son of God" or angel that defected following the creation of Adam and Eve. Just as it was said of Jesus, that he did "not wrangle, nor cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the broad ways" (Matt 12:19), so likewise of I. There is no need to go into any more details, even regarding Satan being called a "dragon" (Greek dra´kon, depicting a terrifying monster, a serpentlike devourer and that occurs 13 times in the book of Revelation).

You choose not to address Rev 12? Nor have you addressed any of the questions asked.



The above reeks of church dogma, which has its roots in pagan theories from which you have been enticed and taken captive. I appreciate you have ceased from defending your beliefs and am sure you won’t mind if I continue to establish truth regarding the supernatural demon. Job has been extensively dealt with in this forum and now Rev 12, from which you appear to avoid. I have addressed 2 Corinth 11 and seeing you make reference to the "wicked one" this shall be my post.

I must say Guestman, your arguments and use of quotations are rashly placed together and mostly unfounded, you give no thought of the context from which they were given, nor endeavour to understand how the Spirit has delivered them. the inability to ask the "right" questions of the Word is plain, reading more like human philosophies than Bible truth.

There are warnings about such teachings.

Alethos
 

Alethos

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The devil or Satan is mentioned over 60 times in the NT. Learn to live with it, 'Truth'.

Yes Ducky, and how many have you showed an understanding? zip, not one...so I listed them all below for you to teach me thier meaning.

Go on Ducky.

BTW the adversary is translated satan and vice versa.

Numbers 22:22

"And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him."

Numbers 22:32

"And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:"

1 Samuel 29:4

"And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?"

2 Samuel 19:22

"And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?"

1 Kings 5:4

"But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent."

1 Kings 11:14

"And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom."

1 Kings 11:23

"And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:"

1 Kings 11:25

"And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria."

1 Chronicles 21:1

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

Ezra 4:6

"And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation(sitnah) against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem."

Job

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

"Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?"

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

"And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

"So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."

Psalms 38:20

"They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is."

Psalms 71:13

"Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt."

Psalms 109:4

"For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer."

Psalms 109:6

"Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand."

Psalms 109:20

"Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul."

Psalms 109:29

"Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle."

Zechariah

"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him."

"And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"

Matthew 4

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Matthew 12:26

"And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?"

Matthew 16:23

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

Mark 1:13

"And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him."

Mark 3:23

"And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?"

Mark 3:26

"And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end."

Mark 4:15

"And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts."

Mark 8:33

"But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Luke 4:8

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Luke 10:18

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Luke 11:18

"If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub."

Luke 13:16

"And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"

Luke 22:3

"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."

Luke 22:31

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:"

John 13:27

"And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."

Acts 5:3

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

Acts 26:18

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Romans 16:20

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen."

1 Corinthians 5:5

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

1 Corinthians 7:5

"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."

2 Corinthians 2:11

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

2 Corin 11:14

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

2 Corinthians 12:7

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

1 Thessalonians 2:18

"Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us."

2 Thessalonians 2:9

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

1 Timothy 1:20

"Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

1 Timothy 5:15

"For some are already turned aside after Satan."

Revelation 2:9

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

Revelation 2:13

"I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

Revelation 2:24

"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden."

Revelation 3:9

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

Revelation 12:9

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 20:2

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

Revelation 20:7

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

Any one will do..I have studied them all, in context within the confines of Gods truth and wrested non of them with ideas of fantastical beings.

Alethos