The problem with the thousand years?

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I apologize to you, Marty and to anyone else who I offended earlier in this thread. I do feel strongly about Christians believing that Satan is bound (because if you don't know your enemy is among you, and about his wiles, and that you're his enemy, then you're in danger), but I had a bad and unacceptable way of expressing it. I apologize for it, and for making the thread unpleasant.

The rest is just banter thrown into a deabte:

---------------------------------​

Truth7t7 to FoTG: "Fact is, I have explained my position 10 times to you, and you fully understand it, momma didnt raise no dummy here
Truth7t7 to FoTG: "When you can understand that (The Souls) and (The Dead) in Revelation 20:4-6 are not living on this earth, but are in the Lords eternal realm, then the green light will allow you to progress forward, until then it's circles in the field"

FoTG to Truth7t7: "When you realize how finite your understanding is and how fallible you are then you'll be able to climb down from that ridiculously precarious perch of yours, and then you may realize that you are wrong, or at least question your beliefs."

Truth7t7 to FoTG: "1.The souls are killed before the second coming during the tribulation
2. All that have lived and died will be resurrected at the second coming,including the souls and the dead in Revelation 20:4-6"

FoTG to Truth7t7: "Very unworkable add-on theory. I thought you were going to try harder than that. I'm disappointed."
"PS: Why did you Like Post #311? Is it because it applies to you too?"

Truth7t7 to FoTG: "It's simple. The Antichrist is revealed ..
Simple."

FoTG to Truth7t7: "Ohhh I see. Yes. You're right. Simple. Too simple, because .."

------------------------
​

That's just backward and forward banter. We're not being personally insulting in a way that we actually mean it to be personal or insulting.

Click to expand...

Truth7t7 said:

Marty your citation of Alexander Gibb (Full Preterist) is a big smile, his claims are laughable, and his argument is in the "day care center" of theological debate

Gibb believes the (Second Coming) seen throughout the Revelation took place in 70AD (Full Preterist)

Marty do you also believe the second coming seen throughout the Revelation was fulfilled in 70AD?

Revelation 1:7KJV
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 22:20KJV
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

1. Iranaeus quote: the only grounds for a late date?
2.Latin does not instill accuracy?
3. It's possible church fathers based their info on Iranaeus?

Alexander Bigg

• Introduction
  In my opinion, John received the Revelation prior to AD 70, to encourage and prepare the Church for the events leading to the vision's imminent fulfillment. I believe therefore, Christ's second coming described in the Revelation took place during the ‘great and the dreadful day of the Lord’ in AD 70.
  
  Irenaeus’ Quote: the only Grounds for the Late Date Theory
  'We, therefore, do not venture to affirm anything with certainty respecting the name of antichrist. For were it necessary that his name should be clearly announced to the present age, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it has not been long since it was seen, but almost in our own generation, about the end of Domitian’s reign.’ (Irenaeus, Against Heresies).
  
  I fail to understand why most scholars today confidently date the Revelation around AD 95 based on the above quote. The source of the statement is from a Latin translation, which does not instil confidence in its accuracy. I can only conclude it accommodates their 'end times' theory.
  
  Several Church Fathers also wrote that Domitian (AD 51-AD 96) was Roman Emperor when John received the Revelation. However, it is possible that they too based their information on the writings of Irenaeus.

Click to expand...

Truth7t7 said:

Marty you believe and teach that Antiochus Epiphanies 167BC fulfilled Daniel 9:27 below, in his desecration of the Jerusalem Temple?

Marty Antiochus Epiphanies
died in 164BC and can't fulfill Daniel 9:27 below, a future event in "Consummation"

Marty you have been shown that the figure seen in Daniel 9:27 will be present on earth making desolations until the "Consummation" the Ultimate End, a future event unfulfilled

Marty you sluff this off as the words of God below don't exist "Why"?

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signaturespecifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end : FINISH

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Thanks. I don't agree, but I appreciate you answering my question

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

-----------------------------------------​

Marty fox said: ↑
Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked;they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled

After Gods purpose was fulfilled by the beast God judged the beast and cast the demonic being into the lake of fire and then Rome eventually fell

We know that it had to be a demon who was cast into the lake of fire because it happens before the judgement day and this can only happen to demons not people

----------------------------------------------------------​

I don't agree with either your interpretation of the verses viz it referring to a "demonic being", or with the century you place the fulfillment in. I also don't agree that only demons are cast into the LoF. I believe the LoF is the second death which we read about at the close of Revelation 20, when the souls of those (humans) whose names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, are thrown into it. I believe the LoF is the place which Jesus referred to frequently as gehenna (not hades, which is the abode of dead souls who did not die in Christ & which is seen delivering up the souls in them at the close of Revelation 20). I believe that those who worship the beast or receive its mark will go straight to the LoF, a thousand years before the rest:

Revelation 14
9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I believe that the beast in a human kingdom with 10 kings under the rulership of a man who is a.k.a the Antichrist (the 8th king in Revelation 17), and the false prophet is another political entity, possibly Israel, possibly "the church" (I don't know which, but one of those two).

I believe the beast will only raise it's ugly head 3.5 years before the return of Christ.

So we're way far apart in all the above.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Marty I took a look at that site and honestly, the point is certainly not proved. This is what I found in that site just through quickly browsing through the claims they make:

1. CONJECTURE: Listing verses in Hebrews and comparing them with the Revelation, and then claiming the comparison is "internal evidence" that the Revelation was written earlier than AD 70.

It's not only in Hebrews where we are told that the church is in heaven with Christ. There are numerous places we are told this, using different language or terminology, for example:

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace all of you are saved
6 And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3
1 If all of you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For all of you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall all of you also appear with him in glory.

Galatians 4
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

The above is part of the teaching of the apostles throughout the New Testament epistles, so to make a comparison only between Hebrews and Revelation (as the site does below) in order to claim this as "internal evidence" that the Revelation was written earlier than AD 70, smacks of someone being intellectually dishonest with himself:

QUOTE ‘mount Zion’ Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1
‘city of the living God’ Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12; 21:10
‘heavenly Jerusalem’ Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 3:12; 21:10
‘company of angels’ Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 5:11; 7:11
‘church of the firstborn’ Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 3:12; 7:4; 14:1
‘God the Judge of all’ Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 20:11-13
‘spirits of just men’ Hebrews 12:24; Revelation 14:3-5
‘Jesus the mediator’ Hebrews 12:24; Revelation 5:6-9
‘blood of sprinkling’ Hebrews 12:24; Revelation 5:9

2. FALSE CLAIM:
QUOTE FROM THE SITE
Revelation 11:1 'And there was given me a reed - See Eze_40:3, etc. Measure the temple of God. [/b]- This must refer to the temple of Jerusalem; UNQUOTE

It does not refer to the temple in Jerusalem. The Greek word used for "temple" in Revelation 11:1-2 (naos, referring to the holy place) is never again used for the temple in Jerusalem following the verses talking about the tearing of the veil. After that, it's only used for the church and the temple in heaven. Please view the images in the first post in this thread below for a clear picture of the two different Greek words referring to the temple in Jerusalem:

The son of perdition and the Tabernacle of God

The site you mentioned makes a great deal about this, quoting a number of commenters stating that the temple in Revelation 11:1-2 "can only refer to the temple in Jerusalem". Problem is, it does not refer to that temple just because they say it does (they say it does because they want it to refer to the temple in Jerusalem).

3. PRETENSE THAT ONE OF THE ECF DID NOT KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT (but the Preterists do):

IRENAEUS:
'We, therefore, do not venture to affirm anything with certainty respecting the name of antichrist. For were it necessary that his name should be clearly announced to the present age, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it has not been long since it was seen, but almost in our own generation, about the end of Domitian’s reign.’ (Irenaeus, Against Heresies).

If I browsed more I could probably list even more serious problems in that link that you provided, but I don't need to, because it's 100% clear that the info in that site is totally unreliable, based on conjecture, denial of facts, claiming superior knowledge to at least one ECF who lived much closer to the time the Revelaiton was penned, and (falsely) claiming proof where there is none for saying that the Revelation was written prior to AD 70.

I'm sorry but if anything, looking through what is said in the site in the link you gave has convinced me not of the accuracy of the claims being made, but instead it has convinced me that the people who say these things in sites like that, are being intellectually dishonest with themselves.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Demons cannot have their names written in the Book of Life, so it would be absolutely pointless for Revelation 20 to close with,

15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Click to expand...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Not everyone believes:

John 3
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Only those who believe will not receive the mark of the beast:

Revelation 13
8 And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.

This is their judgement. What you believe or who/what you worship (forehead) will decide your actions (right hand). Do I believe that the mark of the beast will be an actual, literal, visible mark?

Yes. It's the flesh, and men who are not saved only believe in and worship what they can see, not what they cannot see.

Do I believe the seal of the Holy Spirit is visible to man?

No. It's visible to God only, and to any spiritual messenger (angel) who He sends to seal those who belong to Him.

@Marty fox Sorry, I should have added that I believe the seal of God is the Holy Spirit. Even if I ever meet you, I can't see the seal. God knows it's there. The outward sign is the fruit of the Spirit and when I show anything else I need to hang my head in shame and repent (I mean myself only).

Click to expand...