A new heaven and a new earth

Alethos · Mar 26, 2011

This Study will be taken from 2 Corinthian 12 and Revelation 21.

Our current age is but one of three "heavens and earths" spoken of in the Scriptures. Many views have been put forward regarding their nature. Here in Revelation 21 we see John describes a new vision which he sees, and records the words of the angel who explains details in relation to it.

Rev 21:1 And I (John) saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first (former) heaven and the first (former) earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The previous "heaven and earth" having perished away, they are replaced by a new heaven and a new earth, and are spoken of being the final abode of the Redeemed (Saints). In this chapter is new Jerusalem described as descending out of heaven, adorned as a bride for her groom. John is invited to a closer inspection of the vision, and describes the wall, foundations, gates, and glory of the holy city.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth"—This term connects with this vision of the previous chapter. John there declared that "the earth and the Heaven fled away" (Rev 20:11) to prepare for the new Heaven and Earth which will see the final destruction of sin and death, and as described New Jerusalem in its final glory.

Its essential that we see this new "heaven and earth" as political and symbolic, not literal.

This is not speaking of complete destruction of the current Heaven and Earth rather it relates to a new state of divine society on earth overruled by a righteous King from Jerusalem (Deut 32:1 Isa. 65:17 Dan 12:3), for the literal heaven and earth will remain forever (Ecc. 1:4 Ps. 125:1 148:6 Isa. 45:18).

"For the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"—How do they pass away as (Rev 20:11). This should make it very clear these are symbolic figures.

The Greek better renders "first" as "former" meaning the new Heaven and Earth must be at the conclusion of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, for verse Rev 21:4 suggests sin and death are swallowed up. Verse 4 relates to the conditions on the Earth during the 1000 years and are referred to in verse one as the former Heaven and former earth now ready to pass away. This "new heaven and new earth" is the "third heaven" referred to by Paul in relation to his vision of future glory (2 Cor 12:2).

1. The first heaven was Jewish Kingdom of God on Earth established under the law of Moses (covenant Deut 32:1 Isa 1:2) presided over by various Kings David being the Righteous King who seed would inherite his throne Luke 1:27 Luke 1:32. That symbolic Heaven and Earth came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 (2 Pet 3:7). The law and the sacrifice removed and the people scattered for 2000 years, regathered and in 1948 Israel became a state.

2. The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 2 Pet 3:13).

3. The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered unto the Father by Christ that He (God) might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24).

"And there was no more sea" In other words there will be no more sin and death stricken Nations left in the Earth (Rev. 17:15), God through Christ will make a "a full end" of all nations but Israel (Jer 30:11). Many shall know that "Sea" in the Bible is highly symbolic of nations in their various conditions:

1. Nations can be in a troubled, stormy state, casting up mire and dirt (Isa. 57:20)

2. Nations can be at peace especially after the Battle of Armageddon (Rev 15:2)

3. The Nations can be calm and pure, with all their sins removed and represented as a "clear as crystal" (Rev 4:6)

4. And finally here in Rev 21. The nations are completely removed, only immortal Israel will remain, those as the Scriptures describe in Eph 2:12 who through Baptism become part of the Commonwealth of Israel (spiritual Israel) and so able to take part in the promises to Abraham Gal 3:28-29 and where sin and death is no more and those great passages of scripture are fulfilled once and for all Numbers 14:21 & Hab 2:14

Alethos

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Mar 26, 2011

You said that your exegesis was "political and symbolic, not literal."

Now I understand how it could be symbolic, perhaps too easily. What do you mean by political and where does the spiritual component fit in?

Alethos · Mar 26, 2011

[email protected] said:
You said that your exegesis was "political and symbolic, not literal."

Now I understand how it could be symbolic, perhaps too easily. What do you mean by political and where does the spiritual component fit in?

This is not speaking of complete destruction of the current Heaven and Earth rather it relates to a new state of divine society (spiritual governenance) on earth overruled by a righteous King from Jerusalem (Deut 32:1 Isa. 65:17 Dan 12:3), for the literal heaven and earth will remain forever (Eccl 1:4 Ps. 125:1 148:6 Isa. 45:18). Those who believe this literal Heaven and Earth will pass away will need to consider Num 14:21 & Hab 2:14. Also consider God covenant of promise with Noah and all mankind.

I will continue with verse Rev 21:2 shortly.

Alethos

Butch5 · Mar 26, 2011

Truth said:
This is not speaking of complete destruction of the current Heaven and Earth rather it relates to a new state of divine society (spiritual governenance) on earth overruled by a righteous King from Jerusalem (Deut 32:1 Isa. 65:17 Dan 12:3), for the literal heaven and earth will remain forever (Eccl 1:4 Ps. 125:1 148:6 Isa. 45:18). Those who believe this literal Heaven and Earth will pass away will need to consider Num 14:21 & Hab 2:14. Also consider God covenant of promise with Noah and all mankind.

I will continue with verse Rev 21:2 shortly.

Alethos

It's talking about the literal renewal of the heavens and the earth. They will be restored physically.

Amazing Grace · Mar 26, 2011

I believe the Earth and Heavens have been tainted by Sin through the Fall and I believe in a Literal cleansing by Fire.

The New Heaven and Earth will be righteous it says in 2 Peter.

2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Peter leaves us in no doubt that the Earth shall be destroyed by Fire.

I am not into my parents religion but the simple people of my father's village had many Biblical stories handed down verbally. Just as well the Priests don't do anywhere near a good enough job in teaching the Bible. One of the Biblical stories shared with us when we were children by my grandmother and aunty was about a God making everything New and Pure again through fire. They would tell the story about Noah and tell us that never again would God punish the Earth by water but next time it will be by Fire. (Yes I know they got some of it a bit mixed up but that is what happens over years of oral teachings).

When I came to Christ and read the Bible for myself I came across these very verses and shared them with my family because they were not literate and only knew the Bible stories that were told verbally through the generations. It was a confirmation of what they had been taught and it is to me.

The New Heaven and Earth will be like the Garden of Eden. Sinless and pure and Holy.

Alethos · Mar 26, 2011

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

"And I John saw the holy city"— The best texts omit the word John.

This is speaking of a physical city, one made up of inhabitants. By metonymy, the term "city" can stand for its inhabitants, as in Matt 8:34; Matt 12:25; Matt 21:10; Mark 1:33; Acts 13:44. The character of this city John saw is "holy," in contrast to the ungodliness of Babylon the Great.

"New Jerusalem" The word "new" is kainos, which relates to newness in form or quality, and not "new" in respect of time (which would require neos). The Greek word teaches some change in a city previously existing. At the epoch of the fulfilment of this vision, the Holy Jerusalem as the Lamb's bride (Rev 21:9), will have been in the earth for over 1,000 years. It will be set up at Christ's second coming. Jerusalem is frequently used as a figure for the redeemed (Psa 87:5 Gal. 4:26 Heb.12:22). The word itself teaches that true peace can only be established upon the basis of the hope of Israel (Acts 28:20). Figuratively, the holy Jerusalem relates to the political organisation of the elect, to be revealed at the coming of Christ (Rev 3:12). Its final glory awaits the close of the millenium when all the redeemed throughout the thousand years' reign of Christ will be gathered within its walls.

"Coming down from God out of heaven" Only those "born from above" (John 3:3) will find a place in this city. These are they who are begotten through "the incorruptible seed, even the word of God" (1 Pet 1:23), which the "good and perfect gift" which is "from above" (James 1:17 James 3:15-17). The Word of God is designed to change the characters of believers for the kingdom (John 15:3; John 17:17). When it takes possession of the minds and hearts of such, its influence is revealed in their lives, and their characters will gradually conform to that of the Lord Jesus Christ. His character is divine though his nature, while on earth, was human Heb 2:14. This word is able to transform (Rom 12:2) on the part of believers will be rewarded by the clothing upon of divine nature "from above" following the judgment. This "new Jerusalem," which is made up of the immortalised Redeemed will govern the earth, it is said to come "out of heaven," for every member of it must be "born from above" see 2 Pet 1:4; Rom. 5:1-2; 2 Cor 5:1-5; 1 Cor. 15:47-49 Col. 3:3 Rev. 22:12 Luke 14:14).

"Prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

This shows that here the New Jerusalem is not a material city, but a symbol of the elect (2 Cor. 11:2 Rev 19:7; Rev 21:9). The "adornment" is the
perfection of character and nature that Christ desires to see in those whom he will take to himself as his own (Eph 5:26-27 Psalm 45:13-14 Isa. 61:10; 1 Pet 3:3-4).

Alethos

Amazing Grace · Mar 26, 2011

What does the New Jerusalem have to do with New Heavens and New Earth? They are 2 seperate things.

I don't think the Bible is confusing the City of Jerusalem with the Heavens surely.

One other observation. Why does the Bible give physical form to the New Jerusalem? I am not talking about the New Earth and Heavens but the city itself here.

REV 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

REV 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

REV 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

In verse 27 it states people will enter this physical city. So there will be a Physical New Jerusalem for the Saved Believers to Dwell in with God & Jesus.

The question is why does the Bible have two Brides for the Lord Jesus. The current Church and this city of Jerusalem?

Because that is what has happened. There are two brides. One of Saved Believers and the other God's love which is the City of Jersualem the Apple of His eye.

No time to poder it now I am off to lunch with my husband. Will get back to the thread when I have had some time to research the questions I have posed here.

Alethos · Mar 26, 2011

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they
shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

“And I heard a great voice out of heaven" Having outlined what John had saw with his eyes the physical Jerusalem in all holiness and the means which this has occurred through a bride adorned for her husband.

A "great voice" now makes a proclamation outlining the new constitution of things on Earth.

"Saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men"

The Tabernacle comprised God's dwelling place in Israel (Exod. 25:8), which was a pattern of the future elect in whom He chooses to dwell (Heb 9:11 2 Cor. 6:16).

With sin, death and the grave eradicated from the earth (Rev 20:14-15), and God made "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), it can now at last be announced that "the tabernacle of God is with men" The old Tabernacle (tent) in the wilderness was a parable of the new Jerusalem (Heb 9:9). It was made resplendent by materials obtained from Egypt, and built according to divine plan and specifications (Exod 12:36; 25:1-7). This foreshadowed the requirements of the new Jerusalem, or the "tabernacle not made with hands" (Heb. 9:11). It will be constructed of Yahweh's "special treasure" (Mal 3:17) taken from "out of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:14). These divine plans have been accepted by the Elect and shaped them into divine beings full of glory and truth.

"And He will dwell with them" Yahweh will not personally leave His throne in the heavens, to take up permanent residence on earth, but He will dwell with men in the terms of God manifestation: by revealing Himself through the Redeemed. Similar words are used to describe His dwelling in the sanctuary in the midst of Israel (Exod. 25:8; 29:45). The token of His presence was the Shekinah (dwelling) glory which shone above the Mercy Seat and between the Cherubim (Psa. 80:1). Yahweh dwelt more personally among men when His glory was revealed through His son (John 1:14). He is yet to dwell among men in the multitude of the redeemed each one of whom will manifest His glory (Rom. 5:2; 2 Pet. 1:4; Rev. 3:12; Ezek. 43:1-3).

Finally, at the last judgment, at the conclusion of the millenium, His glory will be so manifested, as to fulfil in every particular His declaration to Moses: "All the earth shall be filled with the glory of Yahweh" (Num. 14:21). He dwells with men, or better stated dwell in them, on Earth.

And they shall be His people" The Greek is laoi "peoples," plural. Abraham was promised that he would become "a father of many nations" (Gen. 17:5). At the end of the millenium, all nations will be incorporated into Christ, and will become one, united in the walls of the new Jerusalem.

"And God Himself shall be with them, and be their God" The words and be given in italics are inserted. The Greek is: "And God Himself will be with them - their God". This is the foundation of the New Jerusalem: God manifested in each individual believer and each one acknowledging His status in the Heavens and the Earth.

Alethos

Amazing Grace · Mar 26, 2011

Sorry Altheos,

You are too confusing. I haven't a clue what you are trying to share here at All?

I believe there will be a New Heavens and Earth just as the Bible teaches us there will be a replacement of the Old Heavens and Earth with NEW ones.

There will also be a New Jerusalem.

In the Revelation 21:9,27 we see men from many nations being able to come and go and that there will be people dwelling in the city with Jesus and the Lord. There will be no Temple because they will dwell with people in the city of Jerusalem so direct intercation between God/Jesus and the people. Because there will be no impure thing there or any kind of sinful person that is why there are no barriers to people and God/Jesus being able to relate to each other directly.

There is a physical city of Jerusalem that will be populated with God's people. That is what I read into those verses.

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Amazing Grace said:
Sorry Altheos,

You are too confusing. I haven't a clue what you are trying to share here at All?

I believe there will be a New Heavens and Earth just as the Bible teaches us there will be a replacement of the Old Heavens and Earth with NEW ones.

Heavens and Earth are not physical but speaking of political heavens i.e governments such as the Kingomd of God in its three stages below.

1. The first heaven was Jewish Kingdom of God on Earth established under the law of Moses (covenant Deut 32:1 Isa 1:2) presided over by various Kings David being the Righteous King who seed would inherite his throne Luke 1:27 Luke 1:32. That symbolic Heaven and Earth came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 (2 Pet 3:7). The law and the sacrifice removed and the people scattered for 2000 years, regathered and in 1948 Israel became a state.

2. The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 2 Pet 3:13).

3. The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered unto the Father by Christ that He (God) might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24).

Amazing Grace said:
There will also be a New Jerusalem.

Correct - New Jerusalem - city rebuilt whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:10 This city will be rebuilt after Rev 16:16 when Christ assumes rulership over this age, which is style former Heavens and Former Earth.

Amazing Grace said:
In the Revelation 21:9,27 we see men from many nations being able to come and go and that there will be people dwelling in the city with Jesus and the Lord.

There will be no Temple because they will dwell with people in the city of Jerusalem so direct intercation between God/Jesus and the people. Because there will be no impure thing there or any kind of sinful person that is why there are no barriers to people and God/Jesus being able to relate to each other directly.

There is a physical city of Jerusalem that will be populated with God's people. That is what I read into those verses.

Amazing grace if you wait the answer to the new Temple in Jerusalem will be answered.

Jesus to return visibly to the Earth to reign over the nations. This is the Second Heaven & Earth the former (now) has passed away.

1st Heaven and Earth (Israel with David it's King styled The Kingdom of God on Earth in its formative stage)
2nd Heaven and Earth (Jesus Christ sitting upon David’s throne with 12 apostle judging over the 12 Tribes of Israel and the nations)
3rd Heaven and Earth (God's full dominion over the earth, being all in all and dwelling in and through mankind)

Therefore:

The earth will not be fully destroyed.
The remnant alive after the earthquakes, fire, wars etc. will need to be taught the Gospel of Christ and populate the millennium age.
New Jerusalem will replace the old which has been partially destroyed.
In the millennium age a new temple to be built.
Sin being constrained for the 1000 years will be released once more for the final battle for those nations who will rise up against the saints at the end.
Upon victory sin and death is swallowed up and Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father and the "third heaven and earth" begins where Christ is all in all.

I hope this helps.

Alethos

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes"— This is the final victory at the end of the millennium (1000 years) will see a repetition of those conditions which followed the initial judgment. Isa 25:8 Isa 35:10.

"And there shall be no more death" Death is the final enemy to be conquered at the conclusion of the millennium (1 Cor.15:26). Until then, it continues, even throughout the millennium though in a modified state (Isa 65:20). At the conclusion of the second ressurection and final judgement death will be the last enemy to be swallowed up styled in the scriptures as Satan, Devil, Slandered, Fasle Accuser, and everything which stands for apostate doctrines will be permanently ddestroyed.

"Neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" These conditions shall continue during the millennium, though on a greatly reduced rate to that of today. Even Christs Kingdom is spoken here as being the former things, former order of things has passed away. To be replaced with the Garden of Eden restored in the Earth.

Alethos

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and
faithful. (red text is Jesus speaking)

"And he that sat upon the throne"

I will post a separate study on the above.

"Said, Behold, I make all new" A completely new order or constitution of things will be set up at the conclusion of the millennium (1000 years of Christs reign). The perfected kingdom will be delivered to the Father (1 Cor 15:24).

“I make all new” these four words encompass so great a detail which the saints of God today would long to know and understand. After death is destroyed and all things are new , we wonder if these words full under “the eye hath not seen... 1Co 2:9 Isa 64:4

"And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful" These adjectives are some of Christ's many titles (Rev. 3:14). They indicate that he will accomplish the work to be performed, and faithfully fulfil the predictions of the words uttered. It is significant, that these titles, proclaimed to the indifferent self-satisfied Laodiceans, are referred to several times at the conclusion of the Revelation Rev. 19:11; 21:5; 22:6.

Today we live in the Laodiceans times where most are rich and in need of nothing and their shame is opened to the eyes of God and Christ. These believers if they remain so will not see "I make all new".

Alethos

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

"And he said unto me, It is done am. I Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"

Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. There are twenty four letters in the Greek alphabet, answering to the twenty-four elders of Rev. 4:4 which represents perfectly the multitudinous (Jew & Gentile) in Christ. It is appropriate that the Lord, who is described as "the word made flesh" should also bare this title. He is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb. 12:2), and to him we should look for salvation. In this verse however, he speaks as the manifestation of God ,the Almighty. His position is one of absolute power in Heaven and on Earth and is only subject to his Father and none else. 1 Corin 15:27

See 1 John 3:1; Rom. 8:19; and compare with Isa. 44:6 with Isa. 41:4. To better understand how God manifested Himself through Jesus Christ His son.

Its important to acknowledge that we the saints are also in this title a multitude of believers in Jesus Christ who is our head.

"The beginning and the ending" All has now been accomplished in Christ.

"I (Jesus) will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely"—The water of life is not offered indiscriminately to all, but only to those who thirst for it (Isa. 55:1). How necessary it is for us to devolope that thirst? See John 4:13-14.

Alethos

Amazing Grace · Mar 27, 2011

Truth said:
Heavens and Earth are not physical but speaking of political heavens i.e governments such as the Kingomd of God in its three stages below.

1. The first heaven was Jewish Kingdom of God on Earth established under the law of Moses (covenant Deut 32:1 Isa 1:2) presided over by various Kings David being the Righteous King who seed would inherite his throne Luke 1:27 Luke 1:32. That symbolic Heaven and Earth came to an end in the destruction of the Jewish State in A.D. 70 (2 Pet 3:7). The law and the sacrifice removed and the people scattered for 2000 years, regathered and in 1948 Israel became a state.

2. The second "heaven and earth" will be established at Christ's coming with the setting up of the Kingdom of God, the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6 2 Pet 3:13).

3. The third "heaven and earth" will be at the close of Christ's reign on earth, when a perfected kingdom will be delivered unto the Father by Christ that He (God) might be all and in all (1 Cor. 15:24).

Correct - New Jerusalem - city rebuilt whose builder and maker is God. Heb 11:10 This city will be rebuilt after Rev 16:16 when Christ assumes rulership over this age, which is style former Heavens and Former Earth.

Amazing grace if you wait the answer to the new Temple in Jerusalem will be answered.

Jesus to return visibly to the Earth to reign over the nations. This is the Second Heaven & Earth the former (now) has passed away.

1st Heaven and Earth (Israel with David it's King styled The Kingdom of God on Earth in its formative stage)
2nd Heaven and Earth (Jesus Christ sitting upon David’s throne with 12 apostle judging over the 12 Tribes of Israel and the nations)
3rd Heaven and Earth (God's full dominion over the earth, being all in all and dwelling in and through mankind)

Therefore:

The earth will not be fully destroyed.
The remnant alive after the earthquakes, fire, wars etc. will need to be taught the Gospel of Christ and populate the millennium age.
New Jerusalem will replace the old which has been partially destroyed.
In the millennium age a new temple to be built.
Sin being constrained for the 1000 years will be released once more for the final battle for those nations who will rise up against the saints at the end.
Upon victory sin and death is swallowed up and Jesus hands over the Kingdom to his Father and the "third heaven and earth" begins where Christ is all in all.

I hope this helps.

Alethos

Altheos,

Not sure where you get your interpretation from and I have to disagree with you not only on the point of the Heaven and Earth not fully being destroyed and remade. However I will remain on that one point (I don't ahve time to address your incorrect interpretation of the various Heavens).

REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Even Jesus said that all shall pass away, including the Heavens and the Earth!

MT 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

MK 13: 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

LK 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The only thing that will not pass away is the very Word of God!

It is plain and repeated a number of times. The Heavens and the Earth will be destroyed and made New.

Not partially remade but fully remade.

2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

It is clear the picture painted here is that the Heavens and Earth will be completely gone. Look at the words used, destruction, elements will melt, disappear, destroyed by fire. Going back to what Jesus said, he confirms that the Heavens and Earth will be no more and the only thing that will survive is the Word of God. It cannot be plainer that the Current Heavens and Earth will be done away with and God will make everything NEW! Not left overs.

Not sure where you got your teaching from?

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Amazing Grace said:
It is clear the picture painted here is that the Heavens and Earth will be completely gone. Look at the words used, destruction, elements will melt, disappear, destroyed by fire. Going back to what Jesus said, he confirms that the Heavens and Earth will be no more and the only thing that will survive is the Word of God. It cannot be plainer that the Current Heavens and Earth will be done away with and God will make everything NEW! Not left overs.
Not sure where you got your teaching from?

Amazing Grace,

You must realise this “Heaven and Earth” are not literal here in Rev 21. Its a fist step in understanding the Revelation.

Don’t worry many misunderstand this passage they tend to overlook the destruction of the 'heavens' which is spoken about. This cannot be taken literally the heavens are God's dwelling place Ps 123:1 where there is no sinfulness Hab.1:13 Ps.65:4,5 and which declares God's glory (Ps 19:1) continuously. If Heaven refers to something "figurative" so must the 'earth'.

To put you at ease I have placed below some other scripture which also cannot be taken literally of the Heavens.

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void, and the heavens, and they had no light...For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land (of Israel) shall be desolate...For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black" (Jer.4:23-28).

This is a beautiful prophecy of the judgments to come upon the 'heavens and earth' of the land and people of Israel, for which they (not the literal heaven and earth) would mourn.

Heaven is defined as those ruling powers in authority and the earth their subjects, the general population of Israel. The earth (people) of Israel were in darkness because their Heavens (rulers) had put away Gods words and were not teaching their people to fear God and His commandments.

Moses had earlier addressed all Israel: "Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth" (Dt.32:1). Moses is not teaching those in Heaven. He is addressing two categories of people to whom he spoke: 1) "The elders of your tribes" and 2) "all the congregation of Israel" (Dt.31:28-30). The elders would then equate with the 'heavens' and the ordinary people with the 'earth'.

Isaiah opened his prophecy in similar style: "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth...Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers...give ear unto the law of our God, ye people" (Isa 1:2 Isa 1:10). Again there is a parallel between the heavens and the rulers; and between the earth and the people.

"He shall call to the heavens (rulers) from above, and to the earth (subjects), that he may judge His people" of Israel (Ps.50:4). This speaks for itself.

"I will shake all nations...I will shake the heavens and the earth" (Hag.2:7 Ha 2:21) likewise.

"For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea...The sword of the Lord is filled with blood...for the Lord hath...a great slaughter in the land of Idumea" (Is.34:5,6). 'Heaven' is here equated with Idumea; the previous prophecy that "all the host of heaven shall be dissolved" (Isa.34:4) therefore refers to the dissolution of Idumea...which was fulfilled.

The heavens and earth mentioned as dissolving in Isaiah 13 refer to the people of Babylon. In a series of statements about Babylon we read that God "will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place...it shall be as the chased roe...they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land" (Is.13:13,14). The fleeing away of the heavens and earth is thus paralleled with that of the people. Heb. 9:26 speaks of the "end of the world" as occurring in the first century A.D. in the sense that the Jewish world was ending then.

Closer examination of 2 Peter 3 confirms this. Having described how the present 'heavens and earth' will be ended, 2 Peter 3:13 continues: "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". This is quoting His (God's) promise of Is 65:17: "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth". The rest of Is.65 goes on to describe this new system of things as being a perfect situation here on this earth:

Amazing grace,

Our Father has written his word in peculiar ways so that those who truly desire to know truth, those who labour day and night may be revealed the New Heaven (government) and new Earth (inhabitants) which is coming upon the Earth. Understanding how the Father uses language is another aspect of knowing Him and His son.

I think with patient consideration of the above and the nature of Johns vision in Revelation 21 you will draw to this understanding.

God Bless you

Alethos

Amazing Grace · Mar 27, 2011

Truth said:
Amazing Grace,

You must realise this “Heaven and Earth” are not literal here in Rev 21. Its a fist step in understanding the Revelation.

Don’t worry many misunderstand this passage they tend to overlook the destruction of the 'heavens' which is spoken about. This cannot be taken literally the heavens are God's dwelling place Ps 123:1 where there is no sinfulness Hab.1:13 Ps.65:4,5 and which declares God's glory (Ps 19:1) continuously. If Heaven refers to something "figurative" so must the 'earth'.

Amazing grace,

Our Father has written his word in peculiar ways so that those who truly desire to know truth, those who labour day and night may be revealed the New Heaven (government) and new Earth (inhabitants) which is coming upon the Earth. Understanding how the Father uses language is another aspect of knowing Him and His son.

I think with patient consideration of the above and the nature of Johns vision in Revelation 21 you will draw to this understanding.

God Bless you

Alethos

Altheos

Please don't patronize me.

The fact is I don't see things your way because I don't just treat the Bible in an allegorical and symoblic fashion.

Some things in the Bible I do take literally and when it says the Old Heavens and Earth will pass away I believe that Heavens and Earth will.

Not authorities or governments or whatever else you think Heavens represent, but the actual Heavens like in the sky and this physical Earth.

You cannot convince me otherwise. Why? because I do not use your method of Bible interpretation. So please learn this you do not have any authority to TELL me what I should or should not THINK.

I have my own brain and my own desire to know His Truth. I do read the scriptures for myself and study it diligently. I pray for God's revelation.

AC 17:10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

It is not your job to put your interpretation into my head but only offer what you think they say. It is up to me to discern if I agree with what you are sharing.

So far I have differences in what I see and hear you saying. So I hope you can respect me enough to not insult my intelligence or my abilities to know God's Truth.

I hope you have understood where I stand. I would like to continue to chat with you but at this time I am not going to bother because you are way off base with my thinking on this one.

I don't like playing the game of I have the only proper interpreation of God's Word. I am aware there are many things yet I have to learn in the Bible. I am not arrogant in thinking I know it all. That doesn't mean I just accept a New Interpretation method of the Bible. I'm not naive either.

Alethos · Mar 27, 2011

Amazing Grace said:
Altheos

Please don't patronize me.

The fact is I don't see things your way because I don't just treat the Bible in an allegorical and symoblic fashion.

Some things in the Bible I do take literally and when it says the Old Heavens and Earth will pass away I believe that Heavens and Earth will.

Not authorities or governments or whatever else you think Heavens represent, but the actual Heavens like in the sky and this physical Earth.

You cannot convince me otherwise. Why? because I do not use your method of Bible interpretation. So please learn this you do not have any authority to TELL me what I should or should not THINK.

I have my own brain and my own desire to know His Truth. I do read the scriptures for myself and study it diligently. I pray for God's revelation.

It is not your job to put your interpretation into my head but only offer what you think they say. It is up to me to discern if I agree with what you are sharing.

So far I have differences in what I see and hear you saying. So I hope you can respect me enough to not insult my intelligence or my abilities to know God's Truth.

I hope you have understood where I stand. I would like to continue to chat with you but at this time I am not going to bother because you are way off base with my thinking on this one.

I don't like playing the game of I have the only proper interpreation of God's Word. I am aware there are many things yet I have to learn in the Bible. I am not arrogant in thinking I know it all. That doesn't mean I just accept a New Interpretation method of the Bible. I'm not naive either.

Wow...Amazing Grace...I think if you read your response a second time you will see somewhat of an overreaction.

You ought not be so easily offended by the Word of God and its interpretation.

You said to me "Not sure where you got your teaching from?"

This is the same way the Pharisees responded to Christ? "By what authority do you teach these things..."

So you ought to tread this ground very carefully. Take a moment and read over Rev 21. Weigh up the facts and consider the evidence. If you require more scriptures to prove this is symbolic of Heaven (Rulers) and Earth ( Peoples) I am willing to assist.

But I will leave you with a question?

Why should Heaven God Throne and dwelling place need destroying and replaced with a new Heaven?

If you could answer with some Scriptures that would be great.

I still love you in Jesus Christ

Alethos

Amazing Grace · Mar 28, 2011

Truth said:
Wow...Amazing Grace...I think if you read your response a second time you will see somewhat of an overreaction.

You ought not be so easily offended by the Word of God and its interpretation.

You said to me "Not sure where you got your teaching from?"

This is the same way the Pharisees responded to Christ? "By what authority do you teach these things..."

So you ought to tread this ground very carefully. Take a moment and read over Rev 21. Weigh up the facts and consider the evidence. If you require more scriptures to prove this is symbolic of Heaven (Rulers) and Earth ( Peoples) I am willing to assist.

But I will leave you with a question?

Why should Heaven God Throne and dwelling place need destroying and replaced with a new Heaven?

If you could answer with some Scriptures that would be great.

I still love you in Jesus Christ

Alethos

Altheos,

How can I tell you this politely and in Love?

Let's see you have just insulted me and called me a heretic and now you want me to come back and play?

Here is an wonderful Australian saying for you that you should be able to fully understand:-
"In your dreams, mate!"

Duckybill · Mar 28, 2011

Truth said:
You ought not be so easily offended by the Word of God and its interpretation.

I don't think he was offended by the Word of God. I think he was offended by YOUR interpretation.

Amazing Grace · Mar 28, 2011

Psst Duckybill "I is a girl".

A new heaven and a new earth

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