A new heaven and a new earth

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Alethos

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Mar 8, 2011
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I sure am enjoying eternal life in His new heavens and new earth. I can't hardly wait until He finishes it :)

14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Amen

 

Joshua David

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Feb 10, 2011
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Hi Joshua,

First of all let me ask you a question.

Who is God speaking to in Isaiah 65:17?

Isaiah 65:17“See, I (God) will (future tense) create new heavens and a new earth. The former (order of) things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

So in the mind of your average Jew he is immediately connecting the former order of things i.e. Israel and their Rulers because this is the subject in mention.

What are the former things which will not be remembered? what will not come to mind when this new Heavens and Earth is established?

If God is going to create something NEW what was the OLD? The same question could be asked in Rev 21.

My logic suggests that the former order of things will be replaced with a NEW order of things?

Maybe that’s a better way of considering verse 17.

Another saying you will be familiar with is "out with the old in with the New.

Who is he speaking too, his servants, Spiritual Israel. And I do see why you might think that the Old Heaven's and Earth might refer to Israel, but my point is that you haven't proven that it does. Look at it this way.. There is nothing to say that the first Heaven and Earth does not refer to exactly what it says, "The first Heaven and Earth" Meaning the Heaven that is currently, and the Earth as it is right now.

This is what I was trying to say. I am not saying that you are wrong in your interpretation, I am saying that you haven't proven it with scripture. I personally believe that the Current Earth as it is right now, will be remade during the Millennium Reign of Christ. But like I said, Israel did not exist for almost 1500 years, does this mean that your Heaven and Earth ceased as well?

But I would say that I can understand why you feel the way you feel about this. And I would even go as far as to say that it is possible that the apostles though, based on scriptures like Isaiah 65:17 that Jesus was to set up his Kingdom right then and there, and even ask Jesus about it. Acts 1:6-7 But just as the Apostles were incorrect in their thinking, we have to be careful that we do not fall in the same trap.

Sometimes two or more things are shown in the Old Testament as being side by side, so that it is easy to assume that they happen at the same time, or are talking about the same thing. Take for instance the scripture you are using Isaiah 65. You have the Lord gathering his people, his chosen, and then separating out, creating the New Heaven and New earth, and setting up the Kingdom.

So why wouldn't the apostles assume that all of this happened all at the same time. I mean Jesus had his followers right with him, he had the people that rejected him, he had fulfilled his earthly mission by dieing on the cross, what was left to do? It was all there. Just as a side note, this is the main reason that Jews today, reject the claim that Jesus is the Messiah, because he did not accomplish everything that the Old Testament said he would accomplish, ie. abolishing the roman government and setting up the Millennium Kingdom.

But God had something else in mind. Just because it was all mentioned together doesn't mean that it happened all together, as Jesus himself made clear in Acts 1:7. So just because the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth was mentioned at the same time as the Millennium Reign, does not mean that they are one in the same.

You are making your case by inference, because there is not a single scripture that you can point to that states that the nation of Israel is the first Heaven and Earth, nor that the Millennium Kingdom is the second Heaven and Earth, or that the Third Heaven and Earth is the New Heaven and Earth spoken of in Rev.

The problem with inference is that it can be just as possible that something else is just as true. I have shown you by scripture why I believe that the atmosphere is considered the first Heaven, and that the Universe is considered the second Heaven, and where God's abode is considered the third Heaven, and where God said he will create a New Heaven and New Earth.

The difference between us is that I work on understanding other peoples views, and yet, so far, I have not seen you even contemplate the possibility that any opposing view is correct.

Joshua David


 

whitestone

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Apr 3, 2011
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This is the New Heavens and New Earth that I live and rejoice in with all God's children every moment of every day;

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Can you "see" it?

(It has nothing to do with the "atmosphere" or with religious "futurism" that I can see.)
 

Duckybill

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Feb 12, 2010
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This is the New Heavens and New Earth that I live and rejoice in with all God's children every moment of every day;

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Can you "see" it?

(It has nothing to do with the "atmosphere" or with religious "futurism" that I can see.)
So you think the "New Earth" will be filled with sin, violence, misery, war, starvation, etc.?

 

Joshua David

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Feb 10, 2011
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This is the New Heavens and New Earth that I live and rejoice in with all God's children every moment of every day;

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Can you "see" it?

(It has nothing to do with the "atmosphere" or with religious "futurism" that I can see.)


I think your post was to me.. maybe? You ask me can I 'see' it? No I can't. Can you explain your position a little better?

Joshua David

 

whitestone

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Apr 3, 2011
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So you think the "New Earth" will be filled with sin, violence, misery, war, starvation, etc.?


Show me where I said that and I'll confess to being an idiot. Don't put words in my mouth "ducky".

Here is what I am "filled" with in the New Heavens and New Earth, Now, To Day;

(Luk 1:53) He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
(Luk 1:54) He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

(Act 4:31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

(Act 13:52) And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

(Rom 15:14) And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

(2Co 7:4) Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

(Eph 5:18) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

(Php 1:11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

(Col 1:9) For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

(Eph 3:19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

And this is the "earth" that has been made NEW;

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This is the NEW Heavens within which I dwell in Christ;

(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Within this New Heavenly City;

(Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

See how it is all present tense?

Are you born again? If you are, it is only because you are born out of the New Jerusalem of the New Heavens and New Earth.

This is a spiritual reality, not discernable by the carnal mind, but the ultimate reality nonetheless. Those who are still standing around waiting for it, aren't presently a part of it unfortunately... souls robbed by the doctrines of religious "futurism". So sad.
 

Joshua David

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Show me where I said that and I'll confess to being an idiot. Don't put words in my mouth "ducky".

Here is what I am "filled" with in the New Heavens and New Earth, Now, To Day;

(Luk 1:53) He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
(Luk 1:54) He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

(Act 4:31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

(Act 13:52) And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

(Rom 15:14) And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

(2Co 7:4) Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

(Eph 5:18) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

(Php 1:11) Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

(Col 1:9) For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

(Eph 3:19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

And this is the "earth" that has been made NEW;

(2Co 4:7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This is the NEW Heavens within which I dwell in Christ;

(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Within this New Heavenly City;

(Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

(Rev 21:2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

See how it is all present tense?

Are you born again? If you are, it is only because you are born out of the New Jerusalem of the New Heavens and New Earth.

This is a spiritual reality, not discernable by the carnal mind, but the ultimate reality nonetheless. Those who are still standing around waiting for it, aren't presently a part of it unfortunately... souls robbed by the doctrines of religious "futurism". So sad.

Please don't be sad for me. I enjoy the closeness of being God's son through adoption now, and I have a hope of better things to come. For if your hope is only for this present world then you are the one to be pitied. My hope gives me strength. It gives me strength to go on when I see injustice in the world. It gives me strength to go on, when I see evil men prosper in this life, when I sometimes struggle. It gives me strength to believe on the surety of God's word. That when he said he was going away, he would one day return. And as the Angel told the people who watched the ascension, He would return in the exact same way.

Acts 1:11 [sup]11[/sup] “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
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And because my hope based on the Word of God, then I believe that my hope is secure.


Joshua David


 

Duckybill

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Show me where I said that and I'll confess to being an idiot. Don't put words in my mouth "ducky".
Perhaps you can explain your term "religious futurism"?

Those who are still standing around waiting for it, aren't presently a part of it unfortunately... souls robbed by the doctrines of religious "futurism". So sad.


For if your hope is only for this present world then you are the one to be pitied.

There ya go whitestone. I'm not the only one who caught it.

 

whitestone

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Apr 3, 2011
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Please don't be sad for me. I enjoy the closeness of being God's son through adoption now, and I have a hope of better things to come. For if your hope is only for this present world then you are the one to be pitied. My hope gives me strength. It gives me strength to go on when I see injustice in the world. It gives me strength to go on, when I see evil men prosper in this life, when I sometimes struggle. It gives me strength to believe on the surety of God's word. That when he said he was going away, he would one day return. And as the Angel told the people who watched the ascension, He would return in the exact same way.

Acts 1:11 [sup]11[/sup] “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
[font="'Charis SIL"]
[/font]
And because my hope based on the Word of God, then I believe that my hope is secure.


Joshua David

Again, you put words in my mouth and hear what I don't say. Where did I once say that my "hope is for this present world only"?

You have done this again. I will not respond to this. If you'd like to have a normal conversation, quit putting words in my mouth.

My hope is ONLY in things eternal. Nothing of this "present world".
My hope is ONLY in the New Heavens and New Earth which IS and is eternal. Can you grasp this please before taking issue with me?

Do you still stand around gazing up into Heaven as did the Acts Chapter One account you quoted?

Or have you, like me and Christ's disciples, RECEIVED HIM COMING as the HOLY SPIRIT as recorded in Acts 2 ?? For He did in FACT come just as He promised. He is that Quickening Spirit. He is that Holy Firstborn. Holy... Spirit.

If you think everything is all "future" instead of NOW AND ETERNAL, and you HAVEN'T received Him at His Coming, then you are missing the boat and your "hope" isn't "secure" at all.

If Jerusalem isn't your Mother Now, what possible hope could you have in the New Heavens and New Earth?

I'll post these two verses describing Christians again as you obviously didn't read them;

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(Heb 12:23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(Heb 12:24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...

The Blessing is in this. Now. Today. Forever.

(Heb 3:15) While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

(Heb 3:16) For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

(Heb 3:17) But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

(Heb 3:18) And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

(Heb 3:19) So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 

Duckybill

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If you think everything is all "future" instead of NOW AND ETERNAL, and you HAVEN'T received Him at His Coming, then you are missing the boat and your "hope" isn't "secure" at all.
Do you also deny Jesus' literal future return?

 

whitestone

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Do you also deny Jesus' literal future return?




Do you deny Jesus' literally came?

Do you deny that He is with me always?

(Mat 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Heb 13:5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

You speak as one who thinks Jesus left or forsook you. So for you, I guess I'd better pray that He will come sometime in the future, since you sure struggle against knowing His Presence Now. So sad.

(1Th 2:19) for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence?
 

Joshua David

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My hope is ONLY in things eternal. Nothing of this "present world".
My hope is ONLY in the New Heavens and New Earth which IS and is eternal. Can you grasp this please before taking issue with me?

Do you still stand around gazing up into Heaven as did the Acts Chapter One account you quoted?

Or have you, like me and Christ's disciples, RECEIVED HIM COMING as the HOLY SPIRIT as recorded in Acts 2 ?? For He did in FACT come just as He promised. He is that Quickening Spirit. He is that Holy Firstborn. Holy... Spirit.

If what you say is true, then the angel lied to the men in Act 1. For if the coming of the Holy Spirit was the second coming, then it was simply not in the same way. And to answer your question, yes I have gazed up into Heaven wandering if today was the Day.


But for someone who is so defensive about people putting words into your mouth, you should follow your own advice.


Again, you put words in my mouth and hear what I don't say. Where did I once say that my "hope is for this present world only"?
You have done this again. I will not respond to this. If you'd like to have a normal conversation, quit putting words in my mouth.




I never said that you said that your "hope is for this present world only." All I said was that IF your hope is only in this present world then you are the one to be pitied. Did I use a quote saying that you said that? You perform the exact act that you accuse me of. You who would spiritualize the scriptures to such a degree that you all but end up denying those scriptures.


God's word promised that Jesus would return in the exact same way that he left the earth. When he left, he left in a physical, though glorified body. Therefore for the Word of God to be truthful, he would have to return in a glorified physical body. The Word of God states that when his foot touches the Mount of Olives, it will cleave in two. Half of it will go to the north, and half to the south? Has this happened? Did it happen on the Day of Pentacost? I must have missed reading that part, but please feel free to quote chapter and verse stating that this happened.


Unless you are claiming that Jesus' spiritual feet touched a spiritual mount of olives, and it spiritually cleaved in two, and the spiritual north part moved spiritually north, ( which I am assumming different than magnetic north) and the spiritually south part moved to the spiritual south part and a spiritual river with spiritual water is spiritually flowing through spiritual valley that was created.


It that spiritual enough for you?


Joshua David







 

Duckybill

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Do you deny Jesus' literally came?
No.
Do you deny that He is with me always?
If you deny His literal future return I wouldn't count on it.
(Mat 28:20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(Heb 13:5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

You speak as one who thinks Jesus left or forsook you. So for you, I guess I'd better pray that He will come sometime in the future, since you sure struggle against knowing His Presence Now. So sad.

(1Th 2:19) for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in his presence?
Eternal security is wonderful, but highly conditional.

1 John 2:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

You still didn't answer my question.

"Do you also deny Jesus' literal future return?"


Christian. You?
Yes, I'm a Christian. Not a preterist. Are you preterist?

 

whitestone

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If what you say is true, then the angel lied to the men in Act 1. For if the coming of the Holy Spirit was the second coming, then it was simply not in the same way. And to answer your question, yes I have gazed up into Heaven wandering if today was the Day.


But for someone who is so defensive about people putting words into your mouth, you should follow your own advice.





I never said that you said that your "hope is for this present world only." All I said was that IF your hope is only in this present world then you are the one to be pitied. Did I use a quote saying that you said that? You perform the exact act that you accuse me of. You who would spiritualize the scriptures to such a degree that you all but end up denying those scriptures.


God's word promised that Jesus would return in the exact same way that he left the earth. When he left, he left in a physical, though glorified body. Therefore for the Word of God to be truthful, he would have to return in a glorified physical body. The Word of God states that when his foot touches the Mount of Olives, it will cleave in two. Half of it will go to the north, and half to the south? Has this happened? Did it happen on the Day of Pentacost? I must have missed reading that part, but please feel free to quote chapter and verse stating that this happened.


Unless you are claiming that Jesus' spiritual feet touched a spiritual mount of olives, and it spiritually cleaved in two, and the spiritual north part moved spiritually north, ( which I am assumming different than magnetic north) and the spiritually south part moved to the spiritual south part and a spiritual river with spiritual water is spiritually flowing through spiritual valley that was created.
[

Of course it is all spiritual. It is clear to see with the Mind of Christ, with Him opening our eyes, we can see.

Yes, Jesus came in Acts 2 as the Holy Spirit, fulfilling Acts 1. Of course. Did you think Jesus forgot or something?
He sent His disciples to go await His coming and they did, and He came. Read about it in the next chapter! You don't believe that? You believe it meant "PHYSICAL"?! Wow, how bizarre. No wonder you are still standing around gazing up waiting for Him and missed the boat of receiving Him.

(1Co 15:46) but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual

So "no", to answer your question. You give a non-scriptural and non-spiritual answer, and on top of that, you say that I say things I've never said. When you and ducky show some response to the scriptures I've posted, and show understanding of them, I'll continue a conversation with you.

In Christ,
Whitestone
 

Duckybill

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Of course it is all spiritual. It is clear to see with the Mind of Christ, with Him opening our eyes, we can see.

Yes, Jesus came in Acts 2 as the Holy Spirit, fulfilling Acts 1. Of course. Did you think Jesus forgot or something?
He sent His disciples to go await His coming and they did, and He came. Read about it in the next chapter! You don't believe that? You believe it meant "PHYSICAL"?! Wow, how bizarre. No wonder you are still standing around gazing up waiting for Him and missed the boat of receiving Him.

(1Co 15:46) but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual

So "no", to answer your question. You give a non-scriptural and non-spiritual answer, and on top of that, you say that I say things I've never said. When you and ducky show some response to the scriptures I've posted, and show understanding of them, I'll continue a conversation with you.

In Christ,
Whitestone
Future event:

Zechariah 14:1-4 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. [sup]2 [/sup]For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [sup]3 [/sup]Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. [sup]4 [/sup]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
 

Alethos

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Who is he speaking too, his servants, Spiritual Israel. And I do see why you might think that the Old Heaven's and Earth might refer to Israel, but my point is that you haven't proven that it does. Look at it this way.. There is nothing to say that the first Heaven and Earth does not refer to exactly what it says, "The first Heaven and Earth" Meaning the Heaven that is currently, and the Earth as it is right now.

This is what I was trying to say. I am not saying that you are wrong in your interpretation, I am saying that you haven't proven it with scripture. I personally believe that the Current Earth as it is right now, will be remade during the Millennium Reign of Christ. But like I said, Israel did not exist for almost 1500 years, does this mean that your Heaven and Earth ceased as well?

But I would say that I can understand why you feel the way you feel about this. And I would even go as far as to say that it is possible that the apostles though, based on scriptures like Isaiah 65:17 that Jesus was to set up his Kingdom right then and there, and even ask Jesus about it. Acts 1:6-7 But just as the Apostles were incorrect in their thinking, we have to be careful that we do not fall in the same trap.

I agree Joshua, that in this instance we need to infer the former order of things which are also spoken of in Rev are referring back to the former Heavens and Earth. This interpretation has far more scripture evidence and support than concluding God will destroy His Spiritual abode with the view of creating a new earth. Nowhere in Scripture are the Heavens of Heaven, Duet 10:14 teach the need for renovation. I believe if you consider the context of Isaiah 65 1 Corith 15 and Rev 21:1-3 you will find a more plausible interpretation than God renovating His Throne Room three times over all because Earth is in chaos.

Sometimes two or more things are shown in the Old Testament as being side by side, so that it is easy to assume that they happen at the same time, or are talking about the same thing. Take for instance the scripture you are using Isaiah 65. You have the Lord gathering his people, his chosen, and then separating out, creating the New Heaven and New earth, and setting up the Kingdom.

So why wouldn't the apostles assume that all of this happened all at the same time. I mean Jesus had his followers right with him, he had the people that rejected him, he had fulfilled his earthly mission by dieing on the cross, what was left to do? It was all there. Just as a side note, this is the main reason that Jews today, reject the claim that Jesus is the Messiah, because he did not accomplish everything that the Old Testament said he would accomplish, ie. abolishing the roman government and setting up the Millennium Kingdom.

But God had something else in mind. Just because it was all mentioned together doesn't mean that it happened all together, as Jesus himself made clear in Acts 1:7. So just because the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth was mentioned at the same time as the Millennium Reign, does not mean that they are one in the same.

You are making your case by inference, because there is not a single scripture that you can point to that states that the nation of Israel is the first Heaven and Earth, nor that the Millennium Kingdom is the second Heaven and Earth, or that the Third Heaven and Earth is the New Heaven and Earth spoken of in Rev.

The problem with inference is that it can be just as possible that something else is just as true. I have shown you by scripture why I believe that the atmosphere is considered the first Heaven, and that the Universe is considered the second Heaven, and where God's abode is considered the third Heaven, and where God said he will create a New Heaven and New Earth.

The difference between us is that I work on understanding other peoples views, and yet, so far, I have not seen you even contemplate the possibility that any opposing view is correct.

Joshua David

Unfortunately Joshua in "this" instance your explanation of the New Heavens and Earth (in my view) does not answer to their purpose and establishment in the Earth.

In all cases the focus is on Earth. Even God Himself when speaking to Israel speaks to both rulers and peoples i.e. Heavens and Earth Isaiah 1:2 & Duet 32:1 because He uses this symbolic language to show Israel their responsibility towards Him to those they are witnessing in the Earth. We must remember that initially God was their King and constantly described as "the king of Israel" Isa. 44:6 cp. Isa. 41:27 43:15; Ps. 48:2; 89:18; 149:2); His desire for Israel Exod 19:6 and us, Rev 1:6 is to have a Kingdom of Kings and Priests in Earth.

Therefore He refers to His Kingdom as an epoch in time 1. "Heavens and Earth" which at some future time will pass away to allow another 2. Heavens (rulers = saints=) and Earth (subjects) to rule followed by a final all encompassing 3. Kingdom where the Heavens will be the Heavens of Heaven and the Earth will be the saints glorified.

This view also upholds God covenant promise to Noah and all mankind.

"The earth which he hath established for ever" (Ps. 78:69). "The earth abideth for ever" (Ecc. 1:4). - "Sun and moon...stars...heavens...he hath also established them forever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass" (Ps. 148:3-6). "The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Is. 11:9; Num. 14:21) This would be contradiction if God lets the earth destroy itself or be destroyed. This promise has not yet been fulfilled.

"God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it; he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" (Isa. 45:18). If God made earth only to see it destroyed, then His work was in vain.

Now I appreciate you are not saying the earth will be totally destroyed but you do mention the earth being re created. Which would bring into question the covenant below:

"I, behold, I establish my covenant with you...I will establish my covenant with you (notice the emphasis on "I" - the wonder of God choosing to make promises to mortal man!); neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth" (Gen. 9:9-12).

So what will happen to the earth when the New Heavens and Earth come down in Glory?

Yes, much destruction and many will perish.

Yes, much of the earth will need to be rebuilt after Isaiah 24:20 the earth will suffer extreme labour pains like a woman in travail.

The below speaks of Israel rebuilding in Amos 9 and in Acts 15 Peter speaks to this prophecy which is yet to be fulfilled.

Israel’s Restoration

[sup]11[/sup] “In that day “I will restore David’s fallen shelter I will repair its broken walls and restore its ruins— and will rebuild it as it used to be, so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name, declares the LORD, who will do these things. The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills, and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the LORD your God.

There are many other prophecies that speak to the time of rebuilding in the earth post Armageddon.

We are told that after this battle it will take 7 years to bury the dead and that monuments of flesh will line the highway from Assyrian to Egypt.

"And it shall come to pass in that day (future), [that] I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the [noses] of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call [it] The valley of Hamongog."

It speaks also of monument (mountains) of flesh piled up of those that stood against the Lord and his saints. Read Ezek 38-39 and this is just in Israel... the controversy has not yet been taken to the Nations!!!!

In many ways the New Heavens and Earth will not come into power easily...many will perish and the earth will suffer under mighty signs and wonders performed by the saints and thier Commander.

The cleansing of the earth will take all of the 1000 years to achieve and forms one part of the duties of Christ and the saints when they come in Glory.

You may find m inflexibile and difficult at times and I appreciate how frustrating this may be for many, but I am contending earnestly for the faith as delieved in the beginning by the Apostles and Prophets. If you understand the spirit of Jude 1:3 then you will better understand my calling, and how I am trying to make my election sure.

1 Thess 5:23

Always in the Master
Shane.



 

Alethos

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Joshua

When Christ is reigning on Mount Zion and from Jerusalem he will bring in a new constitution and order of things which will cover everything ecclesiastical, secular, and spiritual withthe eventual restraining of sin (satan) in the earth.

The “economy of the fullness of the times” (Eph. 1:10) in which “all things in the heavens,” (which are) thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, and “all things upon the earth,” peoples, nations, and languages, are gathered together under one head,

All these things spoken here are termed anakephalaiosasthai, (or inferred as you rightly say) “A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH”.

It will be these divine beings who will establish this new order, whereby the former order, has passed away, or been forgotten. (Dan. 2:44; 1 Cor. 15:50).

You are totally correct in stating the New Heavens and New Earth, which I have interpreted as the “Former Heaven and the Former Earth,” as in Rev 21:4, is stated as the only viable explanation which scripture offers. Only because of the language “the Former Things passed away,” in context of these defined ages of Mosaic – Christ – God.

The Bible speaks clearly to the destruction of the Mosaic Heavens and Earth2 Pet. 3; Heb. 8:7-13.

Although, while this Mosaic age would be tried by fire and dissolved, it was comforting to the brethren that their age would be succeeded by “New Heavens and a New Earth, whereby righteousness will rule for 1000 years.

I acknowledge you believe this also.

So we can style these Heavens as:

1. Mosaic Heavens

2. Millennial Heavens

3. All in All Heavens

Speaking to no. 2 in Isaiah 51 it states concerning this age: “I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant THE HEAVENS, and lay the foundations of THE EARTH, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people”. Isaiah 51:16. Speaking of the future work of Jesus and the saints in redeeming Israel who have fallen.

This planting the Heavens is not Jesus renovating Gods Throne but bringing to the earth the words of His mouth to form a new government from Jerusalem.

The foundations and the constitution of the kingdom restored again to Israel will be the “New Heavens and the New Earth”; and “the former (Mosaic) shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. Primaraly because it’s a lessor Kingdom each pointing forward to a greater more powerful and spiritual Kingdom on earth.

But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for, behold I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat; for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of YAHWEH, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith YAHWEH; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YAHWEH. as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 65:17-25; 11:9).

Joshua, I am not forcing my view on you, just providing an alternative to that which you have at present.

Rather than going over old ground, I am happy (if you are) to leave this study where it stands.

Shane