"The dead know not anything" (Ecclesiasted 9:5)Are our loved ones right now suffering the fires of damnation or enjoying the bliss of heaven? Can we speak to the dead?-discuss
The Mystery of death
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(kendal;10663)
Can we speak to the dead?-discuss
Since you asked for discussion, I will add something to the pot. In the OT, Saul goes to a medium in Endor and promises not to harm her. He had to do that because it was illegal for mediums to do their work. This medium calls forth Samuel, who is dead. The place to read this is in 1 Samuel 28:3-25. Here is one verse to look at if you don't want to read the whole event:
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."
I'd say that Saul did therefore speak to the dead. However, I'd also say that by using a medium, he did wrong, as mediums are forbidden by law.
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
Therefore, let us never take counsel with a medium!
Can we speak to the dead?-discuss
Since you asked for discussion, I will add something to the pot. In the OT, Saul goes to a medium in Endor and promises not to harm her. He had to do that because it was illegal for mediums to do their work. This medium calls forth Samuel, who is dead. The place to read this is in 1 Samuel 28:3-25. Here is one verse to look at if you don't want to read the whole event:
15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."
I'd say that Saul did therefore speak to the dead. However, I'd also say that by using a medium, he did wrong, as mediums are forbidden by law.
1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.
Therefore, let us never take counsel with a medium!
I believe you are seeking and am praying for you to find the whole truth....I love the choice Bmid made and would like to start with part of her story of Saul " And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. " What is said here... gods small "g" these are those dead moving about to the earth...First... we are made in the image of the Eloheem... one of the meanings for this hebrew word is "God and the angels" I know you have a probem believing we exiisted in another age as angels but please pretend you did and look , you can always stop, but for a moment pretend and see...in the first age we eixisted and looked very much like we do now.. we lived on the earth, and did things, things, God wanted us to do... we had tools and lived a simple tribal type existance... when Satan fell and took some of the souls God created and loved... God stopped it all with the katabol the sky consisted of LOTS of Water all the water that is in the Oceans was suspended above... we lived in a huge greenhouse... in the tundra region of Russia you find Mastadons frozen with buttercups in their mouths...during this great katabol God dropped more water than happened during the flood of Noah... and suddenly the earth also froze... the souls were taken off of earth and held in Paradise the divided place one side you have those who did not follow satan and the other side has those who did... after God renewed the earth he began place these souls into the bodies they lived a life to decide whether to follow God or satan... and when we die we go back to the place we left , but if we turn to God and do not follow satan we get to go to the RIGHT side of paradise...God is there and all can see what is happening even in our dimension.. they were seeking. for relief.. in Job satan says he had come from walking to and fro on the earth... the spirit of those is what walks... many spirits live on earth... good and bad... some refuse to go with their spirit bodies...I use this term for lack of a better one..but it is made from a different substance than earth...some come to inhabit other flesh bodies, these are the "evil" spirits...who desire to control and do the will of satan... but once our flesh dies... it returns to the earth from whence it came...But we do not die... our souls consist of the "spirit body" ( that the entity) and our mind or intellect( its who we are and how we think) the entity goes to God and the Mind ( Spirit of who we are) can go there too . This is just my opinion, but those who are on the right side, I think mostly go back to their souls unless God send them as helper or messengers here.. but those who are on the wrong side send the spirit out seeking relief and for some reason the quenching of thirst...see the parable of the swpt house and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man..I have studied for years and prayed so many time for understanding of the spirit world.. for it has tormented my family since I have been a part of it... my sister has been filed with one after the other of evil spirits..and so I desired to understand... It is not laid out like a stepping stone.. but through much time and effort.. I do believe I see it more clearly than ever..John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you." Why did Christ have to die before the Ruach Ha Kodesh, (Holy Spirit) could come... because this Spirit was inside Him .... it was His intellect and His mind His spirit and he had to die on order for it to be able to return to the earth...and when it does it inhabits us .... the word says when you cast out demons and sweep the floor if you do not fill the house with another spirit , they will return finding a clean place to come to..So this is my understanding of where the spirit and souls of men and Jesus are... Jesus is at the right hand of Father ( this is his spirit body) but His Spirit is with us on earth and seeking those who would have his thoughts and His Spirit to lead their lives...We have the same type of bodies and spirits and they act in the same way...they can exist in both heaven and earth and they can act through those on earth..while their flesh bodies return to the earth from which it was formed.It has taken me years to understand this and I am praying that any who read this will have the Holy Spirit to guide and explain as the Will of the Father is done in all things...
As to where the dead are, we need not guess; for, Scripture is clear―that at the moment that we die―we go back to God the Father, and our flesh body goes back into the dust whence it came:Ecclesiastes 12:77 Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [the part of us that lives on] shall return unto God who gave it. KJV Paul knew that upon death we go back to the Lord. But, as you see, our flesh body does not travel with us; it remains here to rot in the grave. But we are not in that grave with our rotting flesh―God forbid―rather, we are in Heaven with the Lord (Heaven is wherever God is; it is His abode):2 Corinthians 5:6-86 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. KJV In the above, Paul is giving an either/or. In other words, you are in only one of two places; you are either here in the flesh (living on the Earth in your flesh body), or you are with God (in your spiritual body) after your flesh deceases. There is no third place. You are either here or there, and that goes for the wicked and for the good―we ALL go back to God the Father after we die down here.Are the Dead Sleeping? Some say that the dead just sleep after they die, and then are resurrected for the final part of Rev 20 and Judgement Day. They call this theory, Soul Sleep. But are they really sleeping? There are a few places in Scripture where we see that the dead are clearly not sleeping, and they are quite aware. One of those places, and one that is Cleary not a parable is below:Revelation 6:9-119 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. KJV These were Cleary people who had died, and they certainly were not unconscious nor sleeping; for, they were speaking to God, pray to Him, if you would. And they were answered with a direct and informative sentence. Another place that we find the dead conscious is in Luke chapter 16. Yes, this is a parable, but a parable must always have as its base, a truth. A parable can not be an untruth, though it is modified so that we, reading one thing, can understand another. I will post that parable below, highlighting certain things to bring your attention to them. Now, I know that a spiritual being feels no pain from thirst and flame―that part is a parable to illustrate the suffering of those certain souls as they see that they have done wrong and that it is too late for them to change it. We cannot now understand how this despair is felt in a spiritual being, such as those on the bad side of the "great gulf" in Heaven; that is why Jesus used a parable that we could grasp in our flesh and limited minds. The fact remains, those on the other side of the gulf, IN HEAVEN, I might add, do suffer and feel great despair, and they are quite conscious and also realize that there is no hope for them. For the man in the below never once prays for himself to be saved himself, only to be relieved of the torment. He never asks for a second chance for himself; but rather, that one might be sent to warn his brothers of the fate that he has brought upon himself, so that they can avoid the fires that come to all the ungodly, his own fate that he no doubt saw off in the distance. This soul certainly was not sleeping, nor did he find any rest night and day, as other Scriptures declare of this place called "Hell":Luke 16:19-3119 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV And one has been sent to them from the dead, and as Abraham declared, many are not persuaded by the risen Jesus Christ. Was the above a parable? Sure. But was it a true rendition of the state of the dead who have died outside of salvation. Yes. And also the happiness of the dead that died in a saved state such as Lazarus? Yes. These two were not "soul sleeping," lest Jesus made the whole thing up―God forbid! Jesus, as "God with us", (Mat 1:23-25) cannot lie:Titus 1:22 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; KJVHope this helps.The entire study can be read herehttp://www.biblestudysite.com/thedead.htm
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. KJV In the above, Paul is giving an either/or. In other words, you are in only one of two places; you are either here in the flesh (living on the Earth in your flesh body), or you are with God (in your spiritual body) after your flesh deceases. There is no third place. You are either here or there, and that goes for the wicked and for the good―we ALL go back to God the Father after we die down here.Are the Dead Sleeping? Some say that the dead just sleep after they die, and then are resurrected for the final part of Rev 20 and Judgement Day. They call this theory, Soul Sleep. But are they really sleeping? There are a few places in Scripture where we see that the dead are clearly not sleeping, and they are quite aware. One of those places, and one that is Cleary not a parable is below:Revelation 6:9-119 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. KJV These were Cleary people who had died, and they certainly were not unconscious nor sleeping; for, they were speaking to God, pray to Him, if you would. And they were answered with a direct and informative sentence. Another place that we find the dead conscious is in Luke chapter 16. Yes, this is a parable, but a parable must always have as its base, a truth. A parable can not be an untruth, though it is modified so that we, reading one thing, can understand another. I will post that parable below, highlighting certain things to bring your attention to them. Now, I know that a spiritual being feels no pain from thirst and flame―that part is a parable to illustrate the suffering of those certain souls as they see that they have done wrong and that it is too late for them to change it. We cannot now understand how this despair is felt in a spiritual being, such as those on the bad side of the "great gulf" in Heaven; that is why Jesus used a parable that we could grasp in our flesh and limited minds. The fact remains, those on the other side of the gulf, IN HEAVEN, I might add, do suffer and feel great despair, and they are quite conscious and also realize that there is no hope for them. For the man in the below never once prays for himself to be saved himself, only to be relieved of the torment. He never asks for a second chance for himself; but rather, that one might be sent to warn his brothers of the fate that he has brought upon himself, so that they can avoid the fires that come to all the ungodly, his own fate that he no doubt saw off in the distance. This soul certainly was not sleeping, nor did he find any rest night and day, as other Scriptures declare of this place called "Hell":Luke 16:19-3119 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV And one has been sent to them from the dead, and as Abraham declared, many are not persuaded by the risen Jesus Christ. Was the above a parable? Sure. But was it a true rendition of the state of the dead who have died outside of salvation. Yes. And also the happiness of the dead that died in a saved state such as Lazarus? Yes. These two were not "soul sleeping," lest Jesus made the whole thing up―God forbid! Jesus, as "God with us", (Mat 1:23-25) cannot lie:Titus 1:22 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; KJVHope this helps.The entire study can be read herehttp://www.biblestudysite.com/thedead.htmThe dead know not anything" (Ecclesiasted 9:5)If you read the entire passage here the discussion is about the flesh and not the spirit body... its so states in verse 6 they will never live again thus, it is speaking of a different body than the resurrected body that we will live in throughout eternity...in the previous verses it is also talking of the flesh and things which we do not have control over such as love... and our flesh is difficult to overcome its need desire to be placed above the things of God... but the spirit man is how we overcome . It is our REAL self this flesh is a temporary shell.. the body of thy vanity verse 9...
I don't have alot of time, but it looks like 5 vs 1, so here goes.(B'midbar;10672)
Since you asked for discussion, I will add something to the pot. In the OT, Saul goes to a medium in Endor and promises not to harm her. He had to do that because it was illegal for mediums to do their work. This medium calls forth Samuel, who is dead. The place to read this is in 1 Samuel 28:3-25. Here is one verse to look at if you don't want to read the whole event:I'd say that Saul did therefore speak to the dead. However, I'd also say that by using a medium, he did wrong, as mediums are forbidden by law.Therefore, let us never take counsel with a medium!
Read the story through,1) Saul was speaking to a familiar spirit, (spirits are devils)2) Saul was speaking to a god (the false gods were devils)If you don't see this then ask i will show you.
Since you asked for discussion, I will add something to the pot. In the OT, Saul goes to a medium in Endor and promises not to harm her. He had to do that because it was illegal for mediums to do their work. This medium calls forth Samuel, who is dead. The place to read this is in 1 Samuel 28:3-25. Here is one verse to look at if you don't want to read the whole event:I'd say that Saul did therefore speak to the dead. However, I'd also say that by using a medium, he did wrong, as mediums are forbidden by law.Therefore, let us never take counsel with a medium!
Read the story through,1) Saul was speaking to a familiar spirit, (spirits are devils)2) Saul was speaking to a god (the false gods were devils)If you don't see this then ask i will show you.
(n2thelight;10755)
As to where the dead are, we need not guess; for, Scripture is clear―that at the moment that we die―we go back to God the Father, and our flesh body goes back into the dust whence it came:Ecclesiastes 12:77 Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [the part of us that lives on] shall return unto God who gave it. KJV
Give me a Bible study which says we are this spirit, and that it isn't just the breath of life.(n2thelight;10755)
Paul knew that upon death we go back to the Lord. But, as you see, our flesh body does not travel with us; it remains here to rot in the grave. But we are not in that grave with our rotting flesh―God forbid―rather, we are in Heaven with the Lord (Heaven is wherever God is; it is His abode):2 Corinthians 5:6-86 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. KJV In the above, Paul is giving an either/or. In other words, you are in only one of two places; you are either here in the flesh (living on the Earth in your flesh body), or you are with God (in your spiritual body) after your flesh deceases. There is no third place. You are either here or there, and that goes for the wicked and for the good―we ALL go back to God the Father after we die down here.
I'll be honest, i am too tired to answer these texts; it is obviously misunderstood, but i will give a place where i have mentioned it before;http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb....html#post66755(n2thelight;10755)
Are the Dead Sleeping? Some say that the dead just sleep after they die, and then are resurrected for the final part of Rev 20 and Judgement Day. They call this theory, Soul Sleep. But are they really sleeping? There are a few places in Scripture where we see that the dead are clearly not sleeping, and they are quite aware. One of those places, and one that is Cleary not a parable is below:Revelation 6:9-119 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. KJV
I am quoting from http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb...ation-soul.html
Originally Posted by billinjackson View PostIn (Lk: 16) Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man all died yet are described as being alive!
If you want to take this as literal then maybe you should eat magic mushrooms and prove Jesus right about Him saying that whatever enters a man does not defile him. Or perhaps leave a tape recorder going in your house and listen to the bricks and wood talking to eachother.The Bible says God will wipe away all tears, what? He's going to make us immune to compassion when we see some of our family and friends roasting forever crying for water. I could go on but i will leave it.
Originally Posted by billinjackson View PostFurthermore, in (Rev 6: 9-10) we see the souls and Martyrs pleading to the lamb for those suffering on earth. Notice, to plead means you have existence and not annihilation.
First of all they are not pleading for those suffering on earth, they are pleading for vengeance. If you believe that literal beasts are going to run around in the last day that is your choice.Which one is it? Luke or Revelation? they both contradict, one says we goto Abraham, the other says we get stuck under an alter, one is crying for punishment on the wicked, yet the other sees the wicked being punished. Even top theologans who believe in the immortal soul will tell you that this is not literal (yet they will go on to tell you that it proves soul immortality), how can you pick and choose from scripture, this scene is either all literal or all not.(n2thelight;10755)
These were Cleary people who had died, and they certainly were not unconscious nor sleeping; for, they were speaking to God, pray to Him, if you would. And they were answered with a direct and informative sentence. Another place that we find the dead conscious is in Luke chapter 16. Yes, this is a parable, but a parable must always have as its base, a truth. A parable can not be an untruth, though it is modified so that we, reading one thing, can understand another. I will post that parable below, highlighting certain things to bring your attention to them. Now, I know that a spiritual being feels no pain from thirst and flame―that part is a parable to illustrate the suffering of those certain souls as they see that they have done wrong and that it is too late for them to change it. We cannot now understand how this despair is felt in a spiritual being, such as those on the bad side of the "great gulf" in Heaven; that is why Jesus used a parable that we could grasp in our flesh and limited minds.
If you would like, we could go over every single parable in the Bible, and see that these things cannot be taken literally.(n2thelight;10755)
The fact remains, those on the other side of the gulf, IN HEAVEN, I might add, do suffer and feel great despair, and they are quite conscious and also realize that there is no hope for them. For the man in the below never once prays for himself to be saved himself, only to be relieved of the torment. He never asks for a second chance for himself; but rather, that one might be sent to warn his brothers of the fate that he has brought upon himself, so that they can avoid the fires that come to all the ungodly, his own fate that he no doubt saw off in the distance. This soul certainly was not sleeping, nor did he find any rest night and day, as other Scriptures declare of this place called "Hell":Luke 16:19-3119 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV And one has been sent to them from the dead, and as Abraham declared, many are not persuaded by the risen Jesus Christ. Was the above a parable? Sure. But was it a true rendition of the state of the dead who have died outside of salvation. Yes. And also the happiness of the dead that died in a saved state such as Lazarus? Yes. These two were not "soul sleeping," lest Jesus made the whole thing up―God forbid! Jesus, as "God with us", (Mat 1:23-25) cannot lie:
If you can give me texts outside parables sure, this is not a question to whether Jesus has lied or not, if all His parables are literally to be taken true, then i can go out right now and prove Him a liar. Just one example - from the same chapter "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations." verse 9. This is a parable, and not literal. If it was to be taken literally i would be cheerin' because i love money.God bless!!
As to where the dead are, we need not guess; for, Scripture is clear―that at the moment that we die―we go back to God the Father, and our flesh body goes back into the dust whence it came:Ecclesiastes 12:77 Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [the part of us that lives on] shall return unto God who gave it. KJV
Give me a Bible study which says we are this spirit, and that it isn't just the breath of life.(n2thelight;10755)
Paul knew that upon death we go back to the Lord. But, as you see, our flesh body does not travel with us; it remains here to rot in the grave. But we are not in that grave with our rotting flesh―God forbid―rather, we are in Heaven with the Lord (Heaven is wherever God is; it is His abode):2 Corinthians 5:6-86 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. KJV In the above, Paul is giving an either/or. In other words, you are in only one of two places; you are either here in the flesh (living on the Earth in your flesh body), or you are with God (in your spiritual body) after your flesh deceases. There is no third place. You are either here or there, and that goes for the wicked and for the good―we ALL go back to God the Father after we die down here.I'll be honest, i am too tired to answer these texts; it is obviously misunderstood, but i will give a place where i have mentioned it before;http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb....html#post66755(n2thelight;10755)
Are the Dead Sleeping? Some say that the dead just sleep after they die, and then are resurrected for the final part of Rev 20 and Judgement Day. They call this theory, Soul Sleep. But are they really sleeping? There are a few places in Scripture where we see that the dead are clearly not sleeping, and they are quite aware. One of those places, and one that is Cleary not a parable is below:Revelation 6:9-119 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. KJV
I am quoting from http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb...ation-soul.html
Originally Posted by billinjackson View PostIn (Lk: 16) Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man all died yet are described as being alive!
If you want to take this as literal then maybe you should eat magic mushrooms and prove Jesus right about Him saying that whatever enters a man does not defile him. Or perhaps leave a tape recorder going in your house and listen to the bricks and wood talking to eachother.The Bible says God will wipe away all tears, what? He's going to make us immune to compassion when we see some of our family and friends roasting forever crying for water. I could go on but i will leave it.
Originally Posted by billinjackson View PostFurthermore, in (Rev 6: 9-10) we see the souls and Martyrs pleading to the lamb for those suffering on earth. Notice, to plead means you have existence and not annihilation.
First of all they are not pleading for those suffering on earth, they are pleading for vengeance. If you believe that literal beasts are going to run around in the last day that is your choice.Which one is it? Luke or Revelation? they both contradict, one says we goto Abraham, the other says we get stuck under an alter, one is crying for punishment on the wicked, yet the other sees the wicked being punished. Even top theologans who believe in the immortal soul will tell you that this is not literal (yet they will go on to tell you that it proves soul immortality), how can you pick and choose from scripture, this scene is either all literal or all not.(n2thelight;10755)
These were Cleary people who had died, and they certainly were not unconscious nor sleeping; for, they were speaking to God, pray to Him, if you would. And they were answered with a direct and informative sentence. Another place that we find the dead conscious is in Luke chapter 16. Yes, this is a parable, but a parable must always have as its base, a truth. A parable can not be an untruth, though it is modified so that we, reading one thing, can understand another. I will post that parable below, highlighting certain things to bring your attention to them. Now, I know that a spiritual being feels no pain from thirst and flame―that part is a parable to illustrate the suffering of those certain souls as they see that they have done wrong and that it is too late for them to change it. We cannot now understand how this despair is felt in a spiritual being, such as those on the bad side of the "great gulf" in Heaven; that is why Jesus used a parable that we could grasp in our flesh and limited minds.
If you would like, we could go over every single parable in the Bible, and see that these things cannot be taken literally.(n2thelight;10755)
The fact remains, those on the other side of the gulf, IN HEAVEN, I might add, do suffer and feel great despair, and they are quite conscious and also realize that there is no hope for them. For the man in the below never once prays for himself to be saved himself, only to be relieved of the torment. He never asks for a second chance for himself; but rather, that one might be sent to warn his brothers of the fate that he has brought upon himself, so that they can avoid the fires that come to all the ungodly, his own fate that he no doubt saw off in the distance. This soul certainly was not sleeping, nor did he find any rest night and day, as other Scriptures declare of this place called "Hell":Luke 16:19-3119 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. KJV And one has been sent to them from the dead, and as Abraham declared, many are not persuaded by the risen Jesus Christ. Was the above a parable? Sure. But was it a true rendition of the state of the dead who have died outside of salvation. Yes. And also the happiness of the dead that died in a saved state such as Lazarus? Yes. These two were not "soul sleeping," lest Jesus made the whole thing up―God forbid! Jesus, as "God with us", (Mat 1:23-25) cannot lie:
If you can give me texts outside parables sure, this is not a question to whether Jesus has lied or not, if all His parables are literally to be taken true, then i can go out right now and prove Him a liar. Just one example - from the same chapter "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations." verse 9. This is a parable, and not literal. If it was to be taken literally i would be cheerin' because i love money.God bless!!
(betchevy;10770)
The dead know not anything" (Ecclesiasted 9:5)If you read the entire passage here the discussion is about the flesh and not the spirit body... its so states in verse 6 they will never live again thus, it is speaking of a different body than the resurrected body that we will live in throughout eternity...in the previous verses it is also talking of the flesh and things which we do not have control over such as love... and our flesh is difficult to overcome its need desire to be placed above the things of God... but the spirit man is how we overcome . It is our REAL self this flesh is a temporary shell.. the body of thy vanity verse 9...
Are you sure? verse 6 doesn't mention they will not live again,I think verse 5 is speaking about literal death, why because verse 10 states;"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."God bless!
The dead know not anything" (Ecclesiasted 9:5)If you read the entire passage here the discussion is about the flesh and not the spirit body... its so states in verse 6 they will never live again thus, it is speaking of a different body than the resurrected body that we will live in throughout eternity...in the previous verses it is also talking of the flesh and things which we do not have control over such as love... and our flesh is difficult to overcome its need desire to be placed above the things of God... but the spirit man is how we overcome . It is our REAL self this flesh is a temporary shell.. the body of thy vanity verse 9...
Are you sure? verse 6 doesn't mention they will not live again,I think verse 5 is speaking about literal death, why because verse 10 states;"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."God bless!
2 Peter 2:9. "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."The unjust are reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished. Where are they reserved exactly? John 5:28,29 says "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."Any text you throw at the unconscous dead doctrine as error can be refuted and explained quite easily. But you can't answer the truth "THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" Ecclesiastes 9:5.For example, in David's time-frame, to him when he died, it would seem like he was at the resurrection day straight away (this is why when you die you are present with the Lord, because to you it seems that way) But in our time-frame, David is still dead in his grave, waiting to be resurrected, he knows nothing!!!God bless!!
I said it was speaking of the flesh body... not the Spirit and how stupid can you be to think Christ would give an example that was a false one? Blashepheme is what you are doing by listening to the false prophets you quote rather than Christ.... he gave it for our instruction...as he did all others.. we can trust his examples...You are truly twisted in your belief in the 7th day Churches rhetoric... rather than the Word of God as explained to you....Am I getting personal, yes I have tried and tried to help you and you refuse to believe the words of Christ so how will you believe us... I for one am finished trying to help a blasphemer...Let God teach you after your flesh dies... He won't have your stupid brain to deal with then.
(kendal;10773)
(spirits are devils)2) Saul was speaking to a god (the false gods were devils)
I think you are trying to mention where the medium says the word “elohim” in her words of description for the initial apparition. Remember the text says it is Samuel that is speaking. It reads, “Samuel said”. The text of the bible knows it is Samuel speaking. The natural flow is that something appears, that something is identified as Samuel, and then Samuel speaks. I understand why one might suppose it was a demon by thinking that since Samuel is dead, then it can’t be Samuel, so what is it? Well, perhaps a demon, then. That is not what the text says, though.
(spirits are devils)2) Saul was speaking to a god (the false gods were devils)
I think you are trying to mention where the medium says the word “elohim” in her words of description for the initial apparition. Remember the text says it is Samuel that is speaking. It reads, “Samuel said”. The text of the bible knows it is Samuel speaking. The natural flow is that something appears, that something is identified as Samuel, and then Samuel speaks. I understand why one might suppose it was a demon by thinking that since Samuel is dead, then it can’t be Samuel, so what is it? Well, perhaps a demon, then. That is not what the text says, though.
(B'midbar;10786)
I think you are trying to mention where the medium says the word “elohim” in her words of description for the initial apparition. Remember the text says it is Samuel that is speaking. It reads, “Samuel said”. The text of the bible knows it is Samuel speaking. The natural flow is that something appears, that something is identified as Samuel, and then Samuel speaks. I understand why one might suppose it was a demon by thinking that since Samuel is dead, then it can’t be Samuel, so what is it? Well, perhaps a demon, then. That is not what the text says, though.
Actually if you read it, it says Samuel said; after Saul believed it was Samuel.And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. (1Sa 28:13-14)You will also find information about it in 1 Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13 "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it"Saul was talking to a familiar spirit, or what the woman called a god. Demons come and talk to people often, pretending to be a passed on loved one.God bless!!
I think you are trying to mention where the medium says the word “elohim” in her words of description for the initial apparition. Remember the text says it is Samuel that is speaking. It reads, “Samuel said”. The text of the bible knows it is Samuel speaking. The natural flow is that something appears, that something is identified as Samuel, and then Samuel speaks. I understand why one might suppose it was a demon by thinking that since Samuel is dead, then it can’t be Samuel, so what is it? Well, perhaps a demon, then. That is not what the text says, though.
Actually if you read it, it says Samuel said; after Saul believed it was Samuel.And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. (1Sa 28:13-14)You will also find information about it in 1 Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13 "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it"Saul was talking to a familiar spirit, or what the woman called a god. Demons come and talk to people often, pretending to be a passed on loved one.God bless!!
(betchevy;10777)
I said it was speaking of the flesh body... not the Spirit and how stupid can you be to think Christ would give an example that was a false one? Blashepheme is what you are doing by listening to the false prophets you quote rather than Christ.... he gave it for our instruction...as he did all others.. we can trust his examples...You are truly twisted in your belief in the 7th day Churches rhetoric... rather than the Word of God as explained to you....Am I getting personal, yes I have tried and tried to help you and you refuse to believe the words of Christ so how will you believe us... I for one am finished trying to help a blasphemer...Let God teach you after your flesh dies... He won't have your stupid brain to deal with then.
I'm sorry if i've made you feel as if i am blaspheming God, but all i am doing is the truth. I am sharing what the Bible says about death - not what religion says. We are neither immortal or have consciousness at death.I will share with you something taken from another website;"As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more." (Job 7:9-10)If my grandmother came and visited me at her house, I would rebuke her in the name of the Lord, because she does that which is against scripture!!!verse 15 "So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life." Knowing that killing onself is a sin, why would Job choose strangling rather then life, if he had to goto hell or purgatory, i would rather stick with the blisters. Maybe he knew that "THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" Ecc 9:5.verse 21 reads "for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.""But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."(Job 14:10-12) Job knew that he would be resting untill that day, when the heavens pass away and Jesus returns to raise the dead and take His people home.If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.(Job 14:14-15) These texts sound exactly the same as what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, about the dead rising incorruptable, about being changed, about hearing the trump which Thessalonians calls Jesus voice.Job 14:18 And surely the mountain falling cometh to naught, and the rock is removed out of his place. - And look, he is talking about that 7th last plague, when the mountains and islands move - because this is when Jesus comes, and this is when the resurrection takes place.Job goes on to say that while he is dead "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." (verse 21) So Job doesn't know anything about anything that goes on anymore if he was to die. - backs up the rest of scripture."If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust."(Job 17:13-16) If you have been reading carefully, many NT texts would be appearing in your mind."For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."(Job 19:25-27)Just going over these texts in my mind, they have proven a blessing to me, bringing out so many NT texts about seeing God, changing from corruption to incorruption etc.The full response is here; http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb....html#post67055God bless
I said it was speaking of the flesh body... not the Spirit and how stupid can you be to think Christ would give an example that was a false one? Blashepheme is what you are doing by listening to the false prophets you quote rather than Christ.... he gave it for our instruction...as he did all others.. we can trust his examples...You are truly twisted in your belief in the 7th day Churches rhetoric... rather than the Word of God as explained to you....Am I getting personal, yes I have tried and tried to help you and you refuse to believe the words of Christ so how will you believe us... I for one am finished trying to help a blasphemer...Let God teach you after your flesh dies... He won't have your stupid brain to deal with then.
I'm sorry if i've made you feel as if i am blaspheming God, but all i am doing is the truth. I am sharing what the Bible says about death - not what religion says. We are neither immortal or have consciousness at death.I will share with you something taken from another website;"As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more." (Job 7:9-10)If my grandmother came and visited me at her house, I would rebuke her in the name of the Lord, because she does that which is against scripture!!!verse 15 "So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life." Knowing that killing onself is a sin, why would Job choose strangling rather then life, if he had to goto hell or purgatory, i would rather stick with the blisters. Maybe he knew that "THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING" Ecc 9:5.verse 21 reads "for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.""But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."(Job 14:10-12) Job knew that he would be resting untill that day, when the heavens pass away and Jesus returns to raise the dead and take His people home.If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.(Job 14:14-15) These texts sound exactly the same as what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, about the dead rising incorruptable, about being changed, about hearing the trump which Thessalonians calls Jesus voice.Job 14:18 And surely the mountain falling cometh to naught, and the rock is removed out of his place. - And look, he is talking about that 7th last plague, when the mountains and islands move - because this is when Jesus comes, and this is when the resurrection takes place.Job goes on to say that while he is dead "His sons come to honor, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." (verse 21) So Job doesn't know anything about anything that goes on anymore if he was to die. - backs up the rest of scripture."If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust."(Job 17:13-16) If you have been reading carefully, many NT texts would be appearing in your mind."For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."(Job 19:25-27)Just going over these texts in my mind, they have proven a blessing to me, bringing out so many NT texts about seeing God, changing from corruption to incorruption etc.The full response is here; http://www.inthepursuitofgod.com/forum/deb....html#post67055God bless
Actually if you read it, it says Samuel said; after Saul believed it was Samuel.
This is true. It also says Samuel before Saul believes. It says, “When the woman saw Samuel”. I take this to mean the woman saw Samuel. I’m not sure if this means she knew it was Samuel, though, because she doesn’t say his name when going on to describe him to Saul. Instead she uses that word elohim, and describes his clothing. I am confused about one part, which may or may not be relevant to our discussion. She sees Samuel, and somehow this gives away to her that she is speaking with Saul (Saul had disguised himself for the meeting). I have wondered if this is because for once in her life an actual dead person appeared, so she knew something big was afoot, or if it was something else that surprised her or set her off.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. (1Sa 28:13-14)You will also find information about it in 1 Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13 "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it"
The “of it” is not in the actual text. It is italicized in the KJV (I know, when you cut and paste into the editor, it erases the italics. I know you didn’t change them or anything! I don’t mean it that way.) Compare 1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her…
Saul was talking to a familiar spirit, or what the woman called a god.
I think she likely spoke as a medium would speak. The narrator didn’t speak that way.
Demons come and talk to people often, pretending to be a passed on loved one.
This is a scary thought, and I suspect this could happen. To me, though, the account reads straight in 1 Samuel 28. The text does not read like it is trying to show me that a demon is speaking instead of Samuel. The text seems to accept it is Samuel. I feel I would have to distort what I read to get something else. I know, you disagree.
BTW, this does not mean that I believe mediums raise people from the dead or converse with the dead or anything. This is a fairly unique thing happening in the text.
This is true. It also says Samuel before Saul believes. It says, “When the woman saw Samuel”. I take this to mean the woman saw Samuel. I’m not sure if this means she knew it was Samuel, though, because she doesn’t say his name when going on to describe him to Saul. Instead she uses that word elohim, and describes his clothing. I am confused about one part, which may or may not be relevant to our discussion. She sees Samuel, and somehow this gives away to her that she is speaking with Saul (Saul had disguised himself for the meeting). I have wondered if this is because for once in her life an actual dead person appeared, so she knew something big was afoot, or if it was something else that surprised her or set her off.
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. (1Sa 28:13-14)You will also find information about it in 1 Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13 "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it"
The “of it” is not in the actual text. It is italicized in the KJV (I know, when you cut and paste into the editor, it erases the italics. I know you didn’t change them or anything! I don’t mean it that way.) Compare 1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her…
Saul was talking to a familiar spirit, or what the woman called a god.
I think she likely spoke as a medium would speak. The narrator didn’t speak that way.
Demons come and talk to people often, pretending to be a passed on loved one.
This is a scary thought, and I suspect this could happen. To me, though, the account reads straight in 1 Samuel 28. The text does not read like it is trying to show me that a demon is speaking instead of Samuel. The text seems to accept it is Samuel. I feel I would have to distort what I read to get something else. I know, you disagree.
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