THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE

Zao is life · Sep 12, 2021

Revelation 7:16-17 (The multitude who came out of great tribulation).
Revelation 21:4-6 (the former things have passed away and all things made new).
(Please continue reading below the image)

THEY WHO OVERCOME

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14-15
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(5) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(6) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)

(7) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(8) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5.

Revelation 22:5 (new heavens & earth)
“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”

1. Who are "they" that Revelation 22:5 says will reign forever and ever?
2. Are they reigning now?
3. Will they reign after Christ returns?
4. How long will they reign?
5. What about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:24?

Let's see if we can find some answers to the above questions:

Reigning over the nations

The New Jerusalem symbolizes the bride of Christ, who has now become the Lamb's wife (Revelation 21:9-10). She has descended from heaven to earth. Revelation 21:24-27 speaks of nations and kings bringing their glory and tribute into the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
24-27 “And the nations (éthnos) of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Revelation 20 speaks of "the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands." They are seen reigning over the nations in Revelation 20, and the second death has no power over them.

Revelation 20 speaks of the first one thousand years following the return of Christ as though the one thousand years is a literal one thousand years, using the Greek word chílioi, which means one thousand only:

1,000 (a thousand, one-thousand): χίλιοι chílioi
2,000: δισχίλιοι dischílioi, example Mark 5:13.
3,000: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi, example Acts 2:41.
4,000: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi, example Matthew 15:38.
5,000: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi, example Matthew 14:21,
OR pénte chiliás (5 x 1,000), example Acts 4:4.

7,000: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi, example Romans 11:4.
10,000 déka chiliás (10 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.
12,000 dṓdeka chiliás (12 x 1,000), example Revelation 7:5.
20,000 eíkosi chiliás (20 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.

The above suggests that Revelation 20 & 21 both follow the return of Christ, but the first one thousand years is literal, and a final trial period for mortals: Revelation 22 speaks of the new heavens & earth from a point in time following the second death (which is spoken of in Revelation 20:14 & 21:8).

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 13, 2021

Very good job of placing things in order and perspective, separating and identifying ... with one exception. I'll get to that in a moment.
Amillennialists really need to ignore and distort scripture by assigning symbolism to most of Revelation to the point where I cannot even communicate with them on the subject anymore. It is like entering a room with an elephant inside and not only being blind to it, but also blind to the functions and purpose of all the other objects and people in the room that are relative to the elephant. So being confused, they start assigningball sorts of abstract symbolism.from the twilight zone.
Anyways, back to my exception. IMHO, Rev. 21:10-23 is not a description if Rev. 21:9. The New Jerusalem us the new heaven and earth. It is a place that the bride will enter into. The angel said I'll show you the bride ... But first let me show you were the brude will be living for all eternity. Then in verses 24 and 25, that is a description of the bride, the Christian nations/people. The New Jerusalem comes adorned LIKE a bride. It's beautiful, but it is not the bride. God dwells in it. It is the new heaven and earth and described so brilliantly with such detail.

MatthewG · Sep 13, 2021

What if you as a believer live in a (Revelation 22) Garden of Eden already but in a spiritual sense now considering that Jesus had the victory over, Satan(Revelation 20:10), Sin(Romans 6:12-14; Romans 8:12-13, Colossians 3:5, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Hebrews 2:17-18), Death (Colossians 2:15), Grave (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), Hell (Revelation 20:13). Was God through Christ able to really reconcile the world back to himself? (2 Corinthians 5:19) Would that open up a new way to view the world in the light of Jesus Christ and his victory looking forward to the future hope of resurrection (Philippians 3:13-14)?

(2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.)

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
Very good job of placing things in order and perspective, separating and identifying ... with one exception. I'll get to that in a moment.
Amillennialists really need to ignore and distort scripture by assigning symbolism to most of Revelation to the point where I cannot even communicate with them on the subject anymore. It is like entering a room with an elephant inside and not only being blind to it, but also blind to the functions and purpose of all the other objects and people in the room that are relative to the elephant. So being confused, they start assigningball sorts of abstract symbolism.from the twilight zone.
Anyways, back to my exception. IMHO, Rev. 21:10-23 is not a description if Rev. 21:9. The New Jerusalem us the new heaven and earth. It is a place that the bride will enter into. The angel said I'll show you the bride ... But first let me show you were the brude will be living for all eternity. Then in verses 24 and 25, that is a description of the bride, the Christian nations/people. The New Jerusalem comes adorned LIKE a bride. It's beautiful, but it is not the bride. God dwells in it. It is the new heaven and earth and described so brilliantly with such detail.

LOL. It's true of all of us when we start with "The Bible says this". "NO, the Bible says this". "NO, the Bible says this, can't you read?"

AND with regard to that....

* The armies in Heaven who follow Christ in Revelation 19:11-21 "on white horses, are clothed in fine linen, white and clean". The New Jerusalem is also described in Revelation 19:8 as her to whom “it was was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints".

* In Revelation 19:7-8 and in Revelation 21:2 she is described as the bride or wife of Christ.

* This is also how the raiment of the saints is described in Revelation 3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, and 13 & 14.

To me it leaves no doubt as to the identity of the armies following Christ on white horses in Revelation 19:11-21, and to the identity of New Jerusalem, so I disagree with your view on the identity of New Jerusalem.

GISMYS_7 · Sep 13, 2021

Yes! We all have some "tribulations" in our lives but NOT like the coming great tribulation===Matthew 24:21==For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

MatthewG said:
What if you as a believer live in a (Revelation 22) Garden of Eden already but in a spiritual sense now considering that Jesus had the victory over, Satan(Revelation 20:10), Sin(Romans 6:12-14; Romans 8:12-13, Colossians 3:5, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Hebrews 2:17-18), Death (Colossians 2:15), Grave (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), Hell (Revelation 20:13). Was God through Christ able to really reconcile the world back to himself? (2 Corinthians 5:19) Would that open up a new way to view the world in the light of Jesus Christ and his victory looking forward to the future hope of resurrection (Philippians 3:13-14)?

(2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.)

"And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23).

We have been redeemed by Christ already, but we await our redemption.

"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God." (Colossians 3:1)

We are raised with Christ, but we will be raised. We are seated with Christ in heaven but we are not in heaven:

Ephesians 2
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace all of you are saved

6 And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

In the gospel of God there is an element of "here but not yet here" for us this side of the return of Christ, and of us having a deposit of our inheritance, but not having received it in the full description as shown in Revelation 22.

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 13, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
LOL. It's true of all of us when we start with "The Bible says this" "NO, the Bible says this". "NO, the Bible says this, can't you read?"

AND with regard to that....

* The armies in Heaven who follow Christ in Revelation 19:11-21 "on white horses, are clothed in fine linen, white and clean". The New Jerusalem is also described in Revelation 19:8 as her to whom “it was was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints".

* In Revelation 19:7-8 and in Revelation 21:2 she is described as the bride or wife of Christ.

* This is also how the raiment of the saints is described in Revelation 3:5 & 18; 6:11; 7:9, and 13 & 14.

To me it leaves no doubt as to the identity of the armies following Christ on white horses in Revelation 19:11-21, and to the identity of New Jerusalem, so I disagree with your view on the identity of New Jerusalem.

So the idea that I agreed and complimented everything you said except for your view of the New Jerusalem interpreted as the Church/Bride, didn't matter? That's what is funny.
The New Jerusalem is not described in Rev. 19:8, that is the bride - you are assuming that.
The Church/ multitude who arrived in heaven are clothed with fine white linen as are the armies in fine white linen.

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light." Rev. 21:10-23

>> That is not a description of the Church/Bride. It is where the Church will dwell for eternity.<<
Don't feel offended, you can't get it all right.
The Bride is mentioned in Rev. 21:24, 25 and in many other passages. The New Jerusalem is a place, a city, where Jesus and His Bride will dwell for eternity.
It's okay, you did a good job on the rest of your post, nobody's perfect.

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
So the idea that I agreed and complimented everything you said except for your view of the New Jerusalem interpreted as the Church/Bride, didn't matter? That's what is funny.
The New Jerusalem is not described in Rev. 19:8, that is the bride - you are assuming that.
The Church/ multitude who arrived in heaven are clothed with fine white linen as are the armies in fine white linen.

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light." Rev. 21:10-23

>> That is not a description of the Church/Bride. It is where the Church will dwell for eternity.<<
Don't feel offended, you can't get it all right.
The Bride is mentioned in Rev. 21:24, 25 and in many other passages. The New Jerusalem is a place, a city, where Jesus and His Bride will dwell for eternity.
It's okay, you did a good job on the rest of your post, nobody's perfect.

LOL. You took offense now because I never said anything about the fact that you agreed with most of my OP didin' ya?

We don't have to agree on the point you make above. Where's that law that says we must agree? I don't agree, that's all. Meaning I could put it this way (the way some people do when they're talking to me) , "You are mistaken", or "You are in error", or "That's bogus".

But because it's you and you're not rude about it, neither am I. But that don't mean I have ta agree with you.

Thanks for sharing though because whoever reads can make up his own mind about who's correct and who's incorrect about the New Jerusalem: A place? Or a people?

@Ronald David Bruno Oh yes, Don't be offended. We can't get it all right

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
So the idea that I agreed and complimented everything you said except for your view of the New Jerusalem interpreted as the Church/Bride, didn't matter? That's what is funny.
The New Jerusalem is not described in Rev. 19:8, that is the bride - you are assuming that.
The Church/ multitude who arrived in heaven are clothed with fine white linen as are the armies in fine white linen.

"And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light." Rev. 21:10-23

>> That is not a description of the Church/Bride. It is where the Church will dwell for eternity.<<
Don't feel offended, you can't get it all right.
The Bride is mentioned in Rev. 21:24, 25 and in many other passages. The New Jerusalem is a place, a city, where Jesus and His Bride will dwell for eternity.
It's okay, you did a good job on the rest of your post, nobody's perfect.

All them precious jewels being worn by the 12 apostles who just a little earlier you are told in the same passage are the foundations decked with all them precious jewels..

The apostles are not a building, though.

"and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone," (Ephesians 2:20)

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 13, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
LOL. You took offense now because I never said anything about the fact that you agreed with most of my OP didin' ya?

We don't have to agree on the point you make above. Where's that law that says we must agree? I don't agree, that's all. Meaning I could put it this way (the way some people do when they're talking to me) , "You are mistaken", or "You are in error", or "That's bogus".

But because it's you and you're not rude about it, neither am I. But that don't mean I have ta agree with you.

Thanks for sharing though because whoever reads can make up his own mind about who's correct and who's incorrect about the New Jerusalem: A place? Or a people?

@Ronald David Bruno Oh yes, Don't be offended. We can't get it all right

I said it was funny, not offensive. I just see many brothers still a bit prideful, wanting to hold onto their theological viewpoints. Everyone wants to present the truth and what's right. I guess some of us are want to wear some kind of forum crown of excellence. And then when if you have held that view for umteen years, past down by your spirit-filled church and Pastor or other theologians you respect, you stand firm with it as if it was some essential doctrine.
Yes we can agree to disagree ... but I'm not gonna let get of that easy.
How would you interpret following descriptions of the New Jerusalem as meaning the Church/Bride:
A great city =
Holy Jerusalem =
Her light =
A great and high wall with twelve gates =
With names written on them, (which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel) =
twelve foundations =
twelve thousand furlongs. (1500 miles - Its length, breadth, and height are equal) =
144 cubit wall made of jasper =
city was pure gold, like clear glass =
The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones:
jasper =
sapphire =
chalcedony =
emerald =
sardonyx =
sardius =
chrysolite =
beryl =
topaz =
chrysoprase =
jacinth =
amethyst =
gates were twelve pearls =
street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass =
no temple in it =

Tell me, what in that list describes a Christian and/or the Church?
Jesus symbolically is the chief cornerstone of the church, but this is a description of heaven, not us.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Revelation 7:16-17 (The multitude who came out of great tribulation).
Revelation 21:4-6 (the former things have passed away and all things made new).
(Please continue reading below the image)
View attachment 17301

THEY WHO OVERCOME

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14-15
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(5) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(6) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)

(7) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(8) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5.

Revelation 22:5 (new heavens & earth)
“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”

1. Who are "they" that Revelation 22:5 says will reign forever and ever?
2. Are they reigning now?
3. Will they reign after Christ returns?
4. How long will they reign?
5. What about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:24?

Let's see if we can find some answers to the above questions:

Reigning over the nations

The New Jerusalem symbolizes the bride of Christ, who has now become the Lamb's wife (Revelation 21:9-10). She has descended from heaven to earth. Revelation 21:24-27 speaks of nations and kings bringing their glory and tribute into the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
24-27 “And the nations (éthnos) of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Revelation 20 speaks of "the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands." They are seen reigning over the nations in Revelation 20, and the second death has no power over them.

Revelation 20 speaks of the first one thousand years following the return of Christ as though the one thousand years is a literal one thousand years, using the Greek word chílioi, which means one thousand only:

1,000 (a thousand, one-thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.
2,000: δισχίλιοι dischílioi, example Mark 5:13.
3,000: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi, example Acts 2:41.
4,000: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi, example Matthew 15:38.
5,000: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi, example Matthew 14:21,
OR pénte chiliás (5 x 1,000), example Acts 4:4.

7,000: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi, example Romans 11:4.
10,000 déka chiliás (10 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.
12,000 dṓdeka chiliás (12 x 1,000), example Revelation 7:5.
20,000 eíkosi chiliás (20 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.

The above suggests that Revelation 20 & 21 both follow the return of Christ, but the first one thousand years is literal, and a final trial period for mortals: Revelation 22 speaks of the new heavens & earth from a point in time following the second death (which is spoken of in Revelation 20:14 & 21:8).

You continue to proclaim the fictional 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, I will continue to expose this error

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Revelation 7:16-17 (The multitude who came out of great tribulation).
Revelation 21:4-6 (the former things have passed away and all things made new).
(Please continue reading below the image)
View attachment 17301

THEY WHO OVERCOME

Revelation 21:7-8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14-15
“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

THE PROMISES TO THOSE WHO OVERCOME:-

(1) They will eat of the Tree of Life (Revelation 2:7)
(2) They will not be hurt by the Second Death (Revelation 2:11)
(3) They will eat Hidden Manna and receive a New Name (Revelation 2:17)
(4) Their names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5)
(5) They will be made a Pillar in the Temple of God (Revelation 3:12)
(6) They will inherit All Things (Revelation 21:7)

(7) They will sit with Christ in His Throne (Revelation 3:21)
(8) They will be given power over the nations (Revelation 2:26)

βασιλεύσει (He will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 11:15 (Christ).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) on the earth: Revelation 5:10 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) with Christ a thousand years: Revelation 20:6 (those who overcome).
βασιλεύσουσιν (They will reign) forever and ever: Revelation 22:5.

Revelation 22:5 (new heavens & earth)
“And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they will reign (βασιλεύσουσιν) for ever and ever.”

1. Who are "they" that Revelation 22:5 says will reign forever and ever?
2. Are they reigning now?
3. Will they reign after Christ returns?
4. How long will they reign?
5. What about what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:24?

Let's see if we can find some answers to the above questions:

Reigning over the nations

The New Jerusalem symbolizes the bride of Christ, who has now become the Lamb's wife (Revelation 21:9-10). She has descended from heaven to earth. Revelation 21:24-27 speaks of nations and kings bringing their glory and tribute into the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
24-27 “And the nations (éthnos) of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory (dóxa) and honour (timḗ) of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Revelation 20 speaks of "the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands." They are seen reigning over the nations in Revelation 20, and the second death has no power over them.

Revelation 20 speaks of the first one thousand years following the return of Christ as though the one thousand years is a literal one thousand years, using the Greek word chílioi, which means one thousand only:

1,000 (a thousand, one-thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.
2,000: δισχίλιοι dischílioi, example Mark 5:13.
3,000: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi, example Acts 2:41.
4,000: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi, example Matthew 15:38.
5,000: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi, example Matthew 14:21,
OR pénte chiliás (5 x 1,000), example Acts 4:4.

7,000: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi, example Romans 11:4.
10,000 déka chiliás (10 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.
12,000 dṓdeka chiliás (12 x 1,000), example Revelation 7:5.
20,000 eíkosi chiliás (20 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.

The above suggests that Revelation 20 & 21 both follow the return of Christ, but the first one thousand years is literal, and a final trial period for mortals: Revelation 22 speaks of the new heavens & earth from a point in time following the second death (which is spoken of in Revelation 20:14 & 21:8).

You continue to proclaim the fictional 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, I will continue to expose this error

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
I said it was funny, not offensive. I just see many brothers still a bit prideful, wanting to hold onto their theological viewpoints. Everyone wants to present the truth and what's right. I guess some of us are want to wear some kind of forum crown of excellence. And then when if you have held that view for umteen years, past down by your spirit-filled church and Pastor or other theologians you respect, you stand firm with it as if it was some essential doctrine.
Yes we can agree to disagree ... but I'm not gonna let get of that easy.
How would you interpret following descriptions of the New Jerusalem as meaning the Church/Bride:
A great city =
Holy Jerusalem =
Her light =
A great and high wall with twelve gates =
With names written on them, (which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel) =
twelve foundations =
twelve thousand furlongs. (1500 miles - Its length, breadth, and height are equal) =
144 cubit wall made of jasper =
city was pure gold, like clear glass =
The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones:
jasper =
sapphire =
chalcedony =
emerald =
sardonyx =
sardius =
chrysolite =
beryl =
topaz =
chrysoprase =
jacinth =
amethyst =
gates were twelve pearls =
street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass =
no temple in it =

Tell me, what in that list describes a Christian and/or the Church?
Jesus symbolically is the chief cornerstone of the church, but this is a description of heaven, not us.

I agree Ron, the description is of the future eternal city and not the church as many claim

This represent the (Eternal Kingdom) in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 13, 2021

This will add to this OP. From a great teacher, John Macarthur.

The New Heaven and the New Earth, Part 3

marks · Sep 13, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
This will add to this OP. From a great teacher, John Macarthur.

The New Heaven and the New Earth, Part 3

One of the best!

Curtis · Sep 13, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
You continue to proclaim the fictional 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, I will continue to expose this error

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It’s not fictional at all, but literal.

What did the early church believe and teach? Premillennialism, aka chialism.

To whit:

The Early Church Fathers were almost exclusively premillennialists and taught an Eschatological Gospel of Both Comings of Jesus. Consider the following testimony from the Fathers. The Epistle of Barnabus, written late first century/early second century and regarded as equal to Scripture by Origen, denotes the Creation Week as a pattern for human history—one day equals one thousand years—six thousand years of history and the Sabbath rest on the seventh day equates to the Millennium (The Epistle of Barnabus 15:4-5). Papias, an early second century Bishop and disciple of John the Apostle, was recorded by Eusebius (the Early Church historian) to have believed that “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth” (Fragments of Papias VI). Justin Martyr also stated that he was taught his premillennial beliefs from John the Apostle and cited Isaiah 65:17-25, Luke 20:35-36 and Revelation 20:4-6 as references for the Millennium and Psalm 90:4 to support the one day as one thousand years belief (Falls 1965:277).
Theophilus, a second century Bishop of Antioch, spoke of a millennial state which is “intermediate between earth and heaven” (Daley Hope 2003:24). Both Melito, a second century Bishop of Sardis, and Hegesippus maintained a chiliastic position (Remains of the Second and Third Centuries: Melito the Philosopher, Hegesippus, 1 ANF 8:755, 763). The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles addresses the Apostasy, the Rapture of the Saints, the antichrist, the Tribulation, and the Second Advent, drawing on scriptures from Matthew 24; John 5:25; Acts 1:2; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and Revelation 1:7; 19:11 (The Fathers of the Church, The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles:183-4). Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the Apostle, was a definite premillennarian. Irenaeus was also the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament and

The above is 1/5 of a copyright article found below, and it irrefutably proves premillennialism is the teaching of the early church - it’s Amil and Postmil that are errors that crept into the church.

http://web.oru.edu/current_students.../DrHebert/Dissertation/2.2 Church Fathers.pdf

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Curtis said:
It’s not fictional at all, but literal.

What did the early church believe and teach? Premillennialism, aka chialism.

To whit:

The Early Church Fathers were almost exclusively premillennialists and taught an Eschatological Gospel of Both Comings of Jesus. Consider the following testimony from the Fathers. The Epistle of Barnabus, written late first century/early second century and regarded as equal to Scripture by Origen, denotes the Creation Week as a pattern for human history—one day equals one thousand years—six thousand years of history and the Sabbath rest on the seventh day equates to the Millennium (The Epistle of Barnabus 15:4-5). Papias, an early second century Bishop and disciple of John the Apostle, was recorded by Eusebius (the Early Church historian) to have believed that “there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth” (Fragments of Papias VI). Justin Martyr also stated that he was taught his premillennial beliefs from John the Apostle and cited Isaiah 65:17-25, Luke 20:35-36 and Revelation 20:4-6 as references for the Millennium and Psalm 90:4 to support the one day as one thousand years belief (Falls 1965:277).
Theophilus, a second century Bishop of Antioch, spoke of a millennial state which is “intermediate between earth and heaven” (Daley Hope 2003:24). Both Melito, a second century Bishop of Sardis, and Hegesippus maintained a chiliastic position (Remains of the Second and Third Centuries: Melito the Philosopher, Hegesippus, 1 ANF 8:755, 763). The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles addresses the Apostasy, the Rapture of the Saints, the antichrist, the Tribulation, and the Second Advent, drawing on scriptures from Matthew 24; John 5:25; Acts 1:2; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and Revelation 1:7; 19:11 (The Fathers of the Church, The Didache: Teaching of the 12 Apostles:183-4). Irenaeus, disciple of Polycarp, disciple of John the Apostle, was a definite premillennarian. Irenaeus was also the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament and

The above is 1/5 of a copyright article found below, and it irrefutably proves premillennialism is the teaching of the early church - it’s Amil and Postmil that are errors that crept into the church.

http://web.oru.edu/current_students/class_pages/grtheo/mmankins/DrHebert/Dissertation/2.2 Church Fathers.pdf

There Is No Millennial Kingdom After (Then Cometh The End) Below, As God's Words Clearly State

When Jesus Christ Returns It Will Be (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom On Earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

GISMYS_7 · Sep 13, 2021

Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

GISMYS_7 said:
Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

GISMYS_7 · Sep 13, 2021

Believe God's Word== they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the(unbelieving) dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. Revelation 20:5

THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE

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