THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE

Curtis · Sep 13, 2021

Christ’s literal earthly kingdom was prophesied in Jeremiah 23: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (vv. 5, 6). This is a promise, and it has yet to come to pass. If prophetic passages like these do not mean Christ’s millennial (1,000-year) reign, they are meaningless.

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on and from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus said at the last supper:

Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

And in Acts 2 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive.

In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He remains and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus - who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, per all the prophecy about that.

In Revelation 21 The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

It’s Irrefutable in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.

Jesus is currently sitting in heaven at the father’s right hand UNTIL the time is right to return to earth:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David.The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule IN THE MIDST of your enemies!

Note that Jesus will not rule His kingdom from heaven, but on the earth, in the midst of His enemies.

He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.

And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron - then Satan is loosed for short time, then thrown into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation is literal - from the OT to the NT, the literal and physical return of Jesus to earth and establishing His unending kingdom is a literal fact, not an allegory.

And it’s also a fact that the early church was solidly premil.

Maranatha

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

GISMYS_7 said:
Believe God's Word== they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the(unbelieving) dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. Revelation 20:5

Those seen (The Souls) (The Dead) are absent from their bodies and present with the Lord, they are living because God is God if the "Living" and they are awaiting the first resurrection on the Last Day

Those seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are in the Lords spiritual realm, where Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the father, presently reigning

Luke 20:38KJV
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Curtis said:
He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.

And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron - then Satan is loosed for short time, then thrown into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation is literal - from the OT to the NT, the literal and physical return of Jesus to earth and establishing His unending kingdom is a literal fact, not an allegory.

And it’s also a fact that the early church was solidly premil.

Maranatha

Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Curtis · Sep 13, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

1 - Jesus will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1Ki 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

2- in Jerusalem

3- Zechariah 14, and Revelation 21:

Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

Next:

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,

Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.

Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.

Curtis · Sep 13, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Those seen (The Souls) (The Dead) are absent from their bodies and present with the Lord, they are living because God is God if the "Living" and they are awaiting the first resurrection on the Last Day

Those seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are in the Lords spiritual realm, where Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the father, presently reigning

Luke 20:38KJV
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

John sees events occurring both in heaven and on earth.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Curtis said:
He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.

And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron - then Satan is loosed for short time, then thrown into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation is literal - from the OT to the NT, the literal and physical return of Jesus to earth and establishing His unending kingdom is a literal fact, not an allegory.

And it’s also a fact that the early church was solidly premil.

Maranatha

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Curtis said:
1 - Jesus will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Truth7t7 · Sep 13, 2021

Curtis said:
John sees events occurring both in heaven and on earth.

John sees spiritual events in Revelation Revelation 20:1-6, and Revelation 20:7-9 resents this physical earth

Timtofly · Sep 13, 2021

MatthewG said:
What if you as a believer live in a (Revelation 22) Garden of Eden already but in a spiritual sense now considering that Jesus had the victory over, Satan(Revelation 20:10), Sin(Romans 6:12-14; Romans 8:12-13, Colossians 3:5, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Hebrews 2:17-18), Death (Colossians 2:15), Grave (1 Corinthians 15:55-57), Hell (Revelation 20:13). Was God through Christ able to really reconcile the world back to himself? (2 Corinthians 5:19) Would that open up a new way to view the world in the light of Jesus Christ and his victory looking forward to the future hope of resurrection (Philippians 3:13-14)?

(2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.)

Your spirit already enjoys this. You do not have a soul or body that can. That is what a resurrection is for.

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

I'll speak about you bringing up the word "pride" after answering this question:

Ronald David Bruno said:
How would you interpret following descriptions of the New Jerusalem as meaning the Church/Bride:

The same way I would interpret this as meaning the Church:

Ephesians 2:19-22
"Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit."

1. Jesus sent and signified His Revelation to His churches via His angel to His servant John (Revelation 1:1). Therefore what you read regarding the New Jerusalem in the book of Revelation signifies certain things.

2. The New Jerusalem has no need for a temple in it because the New Jerusalem itself is the temple of the Lord.

3. These three cities: (1) Babylon the Great, (2) Jerusalem on earth; and (3) New Jerusalem are all called "the great city" or "that great city" in the Revelation, but only the New Jerusalem is called the holy city.

4. The New Jerusalem is said to come down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Revelation 21:2). It says again in verse 10 that she descends out of heaven. In verse 2 she is prepared as a bride adorned for her husband and in verse 9 she is called the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 3:12 "Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name."

There is absolutely no way that you can create more than one New Jerusalem, and then separate one New Jerusalem from the other, and Revelation 21:10 onward is not suddenly talking about a different "place" - it's still talking about the same subject, i.e the New Jerusalem.

And IMO there is no way that words that signify certain things are meant to be taken literally: The names of the 12 apostles are written in the 12 foundations. Therefore the precious jewels of the 12 foundations signify the glory bestowed by God on the 12 apostles. They are not literal, dazzling lights in the sky like some sort of indoor amusement park in the sky decorated with lights all year round and even more so at Christmas time. The Lord is signifying things to us in His Revelation.

No problem for me if you continue to tell me why you believe I'm wrong, and what your opinion is, but whether or not I'll believe you, is another question - and if I do wind up believing you, it will only make me thankful that the Lord has pointed out to me through you that my understanding was faulty. It has nothing to do with pride or wanting to be right. It's sad that you even bring up the word "pride" when discussing the Lord's Revelation with another Christian. It shows that the word was in your mind. It wasn't in my mind, so I was surprised, because we're not discussing pride, but the Lord's Revelation, and since it is God's Word (i.e it belongs to God who is the source), let God be true but every man a liar.

So, IMO the New Jerusalem seen in Revelation 21 is the church, the saints, the body of Christ, full of people who had first died and were found in Christ, and have now been resurrected from the dead, and full of people who were still alive when Jesus returned and were changed, and were taken up to meet the Lord in the air.

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
You continue to proclaim the fictional 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, I will continue to expose this error

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I'm smiling now.

Welcome back, Truth7t7. Nice to see you too

Haven't heard from you in a while. Sit down while I go make you a cuppa nice warm herbal tea. It'll calm you down. Good to see you're well and kicking (I already felt it in my teeth

). I'll come back and answer you once you've had your tea. I want you nice and calm ..

Zao is life · Sep 13, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
You continue to proclaim the fictional 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth, I will continue to expose this error

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First tell me: Where does the word "earth" fit in your understanding of the words new heavens and new earth?

Zao is life · Sep 14, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
I said it was funny, not offensive. I just see many brothers still a bit prideful, wanting to hold onto their theological viewpoints. Everyone wants to present the truth and what's right. I guess some of us are want to wear some kind of forum crown of excellence. And then when if you have held that view for umteen years, past down by your spirit-filled church and Pastor or other theologians you respect, you stand firm with it as if it was some essential doctrine.

Ronald David Bruno said:
And then when if you have held that view for umteen years, past down by your spirit-filled church and Pastor or other theologians you respect, you stand firm with it as if it was some essential doctrine.

And then you do exactly the above by quoting John McArthur and upholding his teaching.

I don't do that. I pray to the Lord to give me understanding of His Word, I consider anything any teacher teaches (but cautiously), and IMO the water of the Word in John McArthur's mind is muddied by John McArthur's views regarding the modern-day state who gave themselves the name "Israel" (but which God does not regard as Israel) and the status of its unbelieving Jews in the Kingdom of God.

Like I said, the fact that you brought all that up shows that it's something that exists in your mind, and since it isn't in my mind, I'm surprised that you managed to throw in all these unrelated comments about "other" saints who (in YOUR opinion) "develop pride, seek a name for themselves in forums or elsewhere, and follow the teachings of their favorite Christian leaders and teachers".

It's also noteworthy that you exclude yourself from these things, as though you are above all that - and then in the very next post you paste a link to John McArthur's teaching, implying how marvelous he and his views are.

And the fact that you even did that (in more than one post) makes it questionable whether you're just talking "generally" about "other" saints (while excluding yourself from it), or whether it exists in your mind concerning me because my post disagrees with you and your favorite teacher who you have placed on a pedestal.

I prefer to stick to the subject instead of accusing others of pride or following the views of people who they respect.You should drop that nonsense too.

To get back to the subject: In my previous post I answered your question to me regarding what I believe regarding the significance of Revelation's description of the walls, gates, and foundations of the New Jerusalem.

Zao is life · Sep 14, 2021

Ronald David Bruno said:
This will add to this OP. From a great teacher, John Macarthur.

The New Heaven and the New Earth, Part 3

It's only good because anyone who reads it should consider all viewpoints. But quoting it was bad for you because it made you a hypocrite after having just accused "other" Christians of developing their views because they follow the teachings of their favorite teachers.

Curtis · Sep 14, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
John sees spiritual events in Revelation Revelation 20:1-6, and Revelation 20:7-9 resents this physical earth

Those events and Christ judging the nations, occurs on the earth, after His return to earth.

Jesus Christ will return to the earth, and in the judgment of the nations, determine who will be allowed to populate the millennial earth (Mat 25:32-34).

He judges the nations, the goat nations, and sheep nations.

Zao is life · Sep 14, 2021

Curtis said:
Christ’s literal earthly kingdom was prophesied in Jeremiah 23: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” (vv. 5, 6). This is a promise, and it has yet to come to pass. If prophetic passages like these do not mean Christ’s millennial (1,000-year) reign, they are meaningless.

The New Testament and Old Testament unequivocally teach an unending kingdom on the earth, with Jesus sitting and reigning on and from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall beno end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus said at the last supper:

Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

And in Acts 2 Jesus literally ascends bodily and visibly from Mount Olive, and the angel said this same Jesus will return in like manner as you have seen Him leave - meaning His literal return bodily and visibly back to Mount Olive.

In Zechariah 14:5 Jesus returns to Mount Olive with all the saints with Him - where He remains and the nations such as Egypt come into the gates of Jerusalem to worship Jesus - who will be literally and bodily sitting on the throne of David, per all the prophecy about that.

In Revelation 21 The New Jerusalem which is above, descends to earth to old Jerusalem, and God and the lamb dwell in it with men forever, and Jesus says this about that city in Revelation 3:12

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

It’s Irrefutable in scripture that there will be a unending literal and physical reign of Christ on the earth, and not just for a thousand years.

Jesus is currently sitting in heaven at the father’s right hand UNTIL the time is right to return to earth:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David.The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Psa 110:2 The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule IN THE MIDST of your enemies!

Note that Jesus will not rule His kingdom from heaven, but on the earth, in the midst of His enemies.

He will return and land on mount Olive with all His saints per Zechariah 14:5, given earlier, where He will rule and reign from Jerusalem on the throne of David.

And we shall reign and rule with Jesus in His kingdom, on the earth:

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The millennium period isn’t a temporary reign of Jesus - it’s the period where Satan is bound for a thousand years, so all of creation, including the angels, gets to see the contrast between the world being ran by Satan as it’s god and ruler for 4,000 years, compared with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of Iron - then Satan is loosed for short time, then thrown into the lake of fire.

Isaiah 65:17-25 describes the millennial reign of Jesus on the earth and in Jerusalem and how radically different it will be, with peace on earth, long life, no weeping or crying, and with no death - even carnivores become herbivores and don’t eat other animals.

Therefore there is no reason whatsoever to deny that the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation is literal - from the OT to the NT, the literal and physical return of Jesus to earth and establishing His unending kingdom is a literal fact, not an allegory.

And it’s also a fact that the early church was solidly premil.

Maranatha

Yes. It's all so clear now, if we understand who New Jerusalem represents.

Just incidentally, notice that whereas Psalm 2:9 says "You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.", the Greek word translated as "rule" in Revelation 2:27; Revelation 12:5, and Revelation 19:15 is from the Greek word poimaínō:

[Strongs Greek 04165] ποιμαίνω poimaínō, poy-mah'-ee-no
from 4166;
to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.

[Strongs Greek 04166] ποιμήν poimḗn, poy-mane'
of uncertain affinity;
a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor.

So if you translate the Greek word directly, Revelation 19:15 says,

"And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God." (Modern King James Version).

This is why I like comparing different translations - some differences in the word chosen by the translator/s stand out (as it does in the above verses). Then you can go to the Strong's Greek Dictionary and see if there is a reason why this is the case.

With regard to this, God's purpose for creating man has not changed:

Psalm 8 UKJV
4 What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him?
5 For you have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honour.
6 You made him to have dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passes through the paths of the seas.
9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is your name in all the earth!

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

Therefore to the son of Man He says,

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree of the LORD. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Jesus is the second man (1 Corinthians 15:47), the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45). The first Adam disobeyed, and died, and so death came to all men. The last Adam obeyed, took the sins of Adam (mankind) upon Himself, bearing the penalty, died, rose again, and ascended into heaven,

Philippians 2
9 Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Amen. Praise Jesus!

Zao is life · Sep 14, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Those seen (The Souls) (The Dead) are absent from their bodies and present with the Lord, they are living because God is God if the "Living" and they are awaiting the first resurrection on the Last Day

Those seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are in the Lords spiritual realm, where Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the father, presently reigning

Luke 20:38KJV
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Yep, and the beast who beheaded them came around at the beginning of the millennium so that they could reign for an entire symbolic 2,000+ years with Christ. On the other hand, if the beast that beheads them comes around at the close of the millennium they could always live and reign with Christ going backwards in time from the close of the millennium to the beginning of the millennium, if they have a time machine that can take them traveling backwards in time. "Back to the future III".

Makes sense.

Zao is life · Sep 14, 2021

Truth7t7 said:
Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Tell us, Where does the word "earth" fit in your understanding of the words new heavens and new earth?

Truth7t7 · Sep 14, 2021

Curtis said:
Jesus Christ will return to the earth, and in the judgment of the nations, determine who will be allowed to populate the millennial earth (Mat 25:32-34).

He judges the nations, the goat nations, and sheep nations.

Your claim is in "Error" Matthew 25:31-46 is nothing more than a "Parable" using sheep/goats speaking to herdsmen, of the final judgement, also seen in Revelation 20:11-15 and throughout scripture, dont be deceived

(Verse 34) The "Eternal Kingdom" Is Presented

(Verse 41) The Judgement Of The Wicked To The Lake Of Fire

(Verse 46) The Conclusion, The Righteous Enter (Eternal Life) In The "Eternal Kingdom" Presented, The Wicked Eternal Punishment In The Lake Of Fire

Matthew 25:31-46KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Truth7t7 · Sep 14, 2021

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
First tell me: Where does the word "earth" fit in your understanding of the words new heavens and new earth?

Exactly where God tells all, in the completely new creation as identified below, a new earth, not a new venus, moon, jupiter, but "earth"

Yes the first heaven and earth are passed away, dissolved by fire as clearly shown in 2 Peter 3:10-13, we are to look for this new creation in the New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Revelation 20:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

THE END OF THE PREMIL/AMIL DEBATE

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