True meanings of: God's wrath; Not knowing the day or the hour;

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1stCenturyLady

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Not this thread, but a different one I will create later tonight, will outline clearly the true teaching of Christ regarding the TIMING of this thing called the "rapture". Look for it in a few hours from now.

Meanwhile, there are a couple of things that Pre-Trib believers hang a lot of their conclusions on based on a deduction that they misunderstand. I will post a couple of those now.

First a sample of verses using the word wrath:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

Now from those verses, and a few others that are similar, and the fact that there are 7 bowls of wrath identified in Revelation chapter 16, it's easy to conclude (if we had nothing else to go by) that somehow the saints must not be here on earth during the last 3½ years known as the Great Tribulation. And we know that those 7 bowls of wrath transpire during the last 3½ years because at the 1st bowl of wrath this is written:

Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

NOTE: Clearly, this first plague (or bowl of wrath) will not occur on the saints BECAUSE they obviously will refuse the mark of the beast. So the saints escape this first "wrath" or plague of God.

That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

And regardless of your position on the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, post) everybody is in agreement that what brings an end to those 42 months of the Satanic system is the return of Jesus Christ.

Now those deductions the pre-tribbers make are sensible, if there were not some other verses to help make better clarity of it all. So now we have these:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

This verse in 12:12 tells us that the devil's wrath will also be occurring on the earth in the end days.

So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?

Hmmmm... interesting.

Then we have

Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!

So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?

Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

So up to this point, it would
seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?

Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.

* Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???

Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.

The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?

You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.

No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the
Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.

= = = = = = =

The wrath of God is NOT tribulation. The bowls of wrath come after the second coming. The Great Tribulation comes before and is for the cleansing of the Jews and the maturing of nominal Christians. (There is no pre-trib. secret rapture)
 

Curtis

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That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:

The antichrist is not the false prophet. The antichrist is the false god who the false prophet proclaims as genuine with lying signs and wonders.
 

Curtis

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You see brethren, that Jesus comes like a thief in the night FOR THE LOST because they are in darkness! The Church is fully informed and knows full well how and when things unfold. He does not come like a thief in the night to the church! The church knows fully well and we are warning everybody. When Jesus said also that His coming would be like in the days of Noah, and the sinners were sinning and completely unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, the sinners were taken by surprise.

Note that both His return and the day of the lord shall come upon people as a thief in the night

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This establishes that the day of the lord and the His return to earth are in the same time period - Jesus won’t come unexpectedly as a thief, two different times.

In Zechariah 14:1 the day of Lord is followed by His return with all the saints in 14:5 which is confirmation that the two events are in the same time period,

2 Thessalonians 2:1 equates the day of the lord with the coming of Jesus to gather us to be with Him. and says that it won’t happen until the mid trib event called the Son of perdition/abomination of desolation occurs, putting the rapture and the day of the lord at the mid tribulation point.

Matthew 24 has the sequences of the son of perdition mid trib event, followed by the day of the Lord, and then the rapture. Verses 15, 29, 30, and 31, as more confirmation of this.

The rapture therefore is mid trib, pre mark, and premillennial
 
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Curtis

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14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Re read your own proof text.

The great tribulation that they came out of, is the last half of the tribulation, the last 42 months, and therefore the mark of the beast is in full implementation.

In fact those who come out of the great tribulation are there because they refused the mark, and refused to worship him

Maranatha
 
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GRACE ambassador

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There is no pre-trib. secret rapture
The rapture therefore is mid trib, pre mark, and premillenniali.
There are, In Biblical Fact, TWO mid-trib raptures, but ONLY ONE Departure
Of The Body Of CHRIST!
Totaling THREE future raptures!! Amen?:

PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure {aka rapture}:

(1) Body Of CHRIST Departure TO Heaven (Read/study Romans - Philemon)
= God's 'Context' is ALL 'Spiritual!'
We are not "looking for the man of sin/signs
to enter into The Time of Jacob's Trouble." (2 Corinthians 5:7)!

We are "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting For
CHRIST, Who Will Present ALL of The Body Of CHRIST, holy
and unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, TO His
Father, In Heaven, Where we Will Live Forever And Ever!"
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22; 1 Corinthians 6:3;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2)
Amen?

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

MID-TOJT raptures:

(2) During The Time {God's 'Context'} of JACOB's {ISRAEL's} Trouble, there Will Be TWO "raptures":

a) one departure is of the TWO witnesses, killed, resurrected, and taken up (Revelation 11:1-12)

b) the other departure is of the 144,000 "sealed virgins of TWELVE tribes (Revelation 7:1-8) redeemed from the earth," and were "without fault before The Throne of God!" (Revelation 14:1-5)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified In JESUS CHRIST!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)
 

Curtis

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Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

If you think the woman [Israel] are the Jews, It will be almost impossible for you to understand many things, for "Israel" is the offspring also of the ten tribes that were scattered. Yet today they exist in large part as the Christian nations of the world. The prophet Hosea identified them:

Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured not numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not My People,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living
God.'
"

Hosea is calling attention to the time of the end, to the house of Israel in the end times and how they will be remembered in Europe, America or where ever those nations are established. There this house of “Israel” will not consider themselves as Israel, but as Gentile nations, and they will call themselves "sons of the living God.” Jesus Christ is the "living God" and those that are sons of God are called Christians. This could not be the Jews under any condition for they do not consider Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

The race "Caucasian" are the peoples of the old "House of Israel" who went over the Caucasus Mountains and settled throughout western Europe, and colonized elsewhere around the world. They are the Christian nations. These are people who represent the “woman” who brought forth the manchild, Jesus Christ, and Satan is after us Christians. So the “woman” is me and you and anyone who professes to be a Christian. Remember that Gentiles who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ have been grafted in and are part of the tree of Israel. And so, we Christians will be the target of this flood of lies and deception that will be coming from Satan and his locust army.

jb
There are literally dozens of scriptures that show God dispersing Israel out of their land and punishing them, more than one time, but states clearly that in the end national Israel will be gathered back to their land permanently, and that they have never stopped being His people.

Romans 11 states unequivocally that God has not cast out His people, and the bottom line of Romans 11 is that when the deliverer, Jesus, comes out of Zion at His return, ungodly and unbelieving Jacob will become godly, and then all Israel alive to see Him, will be saved.

Romans 11 is the cure for replacement theology - if you substitute the word CHURCH for the word ISRAEL, you will conclude that most of the church is ungodly and cut off from their own covenant due to unbelief, and won’t become Godly or believe until they see Jesus, the deliverer, come out of Zion, (Jerusalem), and that salvation has come to the gentiles in order to make the church jealous.

And white Caucasians in Europe are not Israelites.

Arabs and Israelites are both descended from Abraham, thus to see what an Israelite/Jew looks like, look at their close cousins the Arabs in countries like Saudi Arabia, and you will find their ethnicity is not white Caucasians, but is identical in looks to the Jews in Israel today

Both black and white racists claim that the true Jews are of their ethnic group.

Both are wrong.

Shalom Aleichem
 
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Curtis

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There are, In Biblical Fact, TWO mid-trib raptures, but ONLY ONE Departure
Of The Body Of CHRIST!
Totaling THREE future raptures!! Amen?:

PRE-TOJT Great GRACE Departure {aka rapture}:

(1) Body Of CHRIST Departure TO Heaven (Read/study Romans - Philemon)
= God's 'Context' is ALL 'Spiritual!'
We are not "looking for the man of sin/signs
to enter into The Time of Jacob's Trouble." (2 Corinthians 5:7)!

We are "looking, watching, and Patiently waiting For
CHRIST, Who Will Present ALL of The Body Of CHRIST, holy
and unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, TO His
Father, In Heaven, Where we Will Live Forever And Ever!"
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22; 1 Corinthians 6:3;
2 Corinthians 5:1-2)
Amen?

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

MID-TOJT raptures:

(2) During The Time {God's 'Context'} of JACOB's {ISRAEL's} Trouble, there Will Be TWO "raptures":

a) one departure is of the TWO witnesses, killed, resurrected, and taken up (Revelation 11:1-12)

b) the other departure is of the 144,000 "sealed virgins of TWELVE tribes (Revelation 7:1-8) redeemed from the earth," and were "without fault before The Throne of God!" (Revelation 14:1-5)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified In JESUS CHRIST!

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship, today?)
Except you are wrong.

There’s no pre trib rapture.

I showed from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that the rapture we are gathered to be with Jesus in, is after the mid trib son of perdition event occurs, and that Matthew 24 confirms that the rapture is after the son of perdition event in verse 15.

Pre trib is wishful thinking, and is not biblical.

Maranatha
 

marks

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Re read your own proof text.

The great tribulation that they came out of, is the last half of the tribulation, the last 42 months, and therefore the mark of the beast is in full implementation.

In fact those who come out of the great tribulation are there because they refused the mark, and refused to worship him

Maranatha
How much do you know about John's use of "ek" and "apo"? Suffice to say, he wasn't the sharpest of the Greek writers. This has a part to play in interpreting the text.

And is it true than they you don't see these events laid out sequentially? That the seals are opened before the trumpets, the trumpets sounded before the bowls? The 2 witnesses for 3.5 years, then the beast for 3.5 years, like that?

Much love!
 

Oseas

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I looked carefully just now at what you posted, and I would love to believe that thought, that the church will be protected from these last plagues, but it's most difficult to reconcile with known facts about the end days, i.e. the beheadings of the saints, the imprisonment of the saints, brother delivering up brother to death, not being able to buy or sell, and with regard to the last plagues, how do the saints not get affected by the waters that have been ruined, and the famines, etc.?

No, I've studied these things for decades, and thought and meditated on them, and I just can't see how the saints who are able to escape the imprisonments, and some who hide themselves well, will be able to not have to deal with these issues.

You are right. I have always said in almost all of my posts alerting the people saying: Be careful (because the days are evil), and get ready. (See, if anyone be not ready certainly will be frustraded. JESUS said: Behold, I have told you before. - What? the things written in Matthew 24:v.15 to 24, whose things will be fulfilled from now on, I would say in this current decade -2020 to 2030. This is a question of discernment)

You are right because it is written in the Word of GOD, in the book of Revelation that reveals clearly: Rev.6:v.10-11
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Revelation 13:v.7-8
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.(was given unto the MAN Beast of sea by the Dragon-Rev.13:v.2, furthermore, the Dragon will give to the MAN Beast of sea his seat, and great authority placed in Jerusalem, the great city, also called Sodom and Egypt)

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


Yes, you are right. All people must wake up, it is midnight and is very dark and dangerous. Proverbs 22:v.3 - 3 A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. (Where to hide? Well, "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:v.1


May our Lord GOD bless us, and give us His protection

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by him) and LORD of lords

 
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Oseas

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Except you are wrong. There’s no pre trib rapture.

I showed from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 that the rapture we are gathered to be with Jesus in, is after the mid trib son of perdition event occurs, and that Matthew 24 confirms that the rapture is after the son of perdition event in verse 15.
Pre trib is wishful thinking, and is not biblical.
Maranatha

You are right, very right. Matthew 25:v.6 - At midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Daniel 12:v.12
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. The mysterious and wonderful day 1.335

Let us be careful and ready to be blessed reaching to the great day 1.335 - Amen, Aleluia!!

 
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NewMusic

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Aramaic.jpg
How much do you know about John's use of "ek" and "apo"? Suffice to say, he wasn't the sharpest of the Greek writers. This has a part to play in interpreting the text.

And is it true than they you don't see these events laid out sequentially? That the seals are opened before the trumpets, the trumpets sounded before the bowls? The 2 witnesses for 3.5 years, then the beast for 3.5 years, like that?

Much love!

The entire New Testament was not written in Greek, but translated into Greek from Aramaic.

I know that about 99% of the seminaries in the world teach that the New Testament was written in the language of the Gentile Greeks, but that just is not true. The Jews considered the Gentiles as awful, would not eat their food, nor touch their things, not allow them into their homes, and the last thing they would do was learn their language. The greatest historian of that era is Josephus, who documented the wars of the Romans, and against the Jews, and himself said, and I paraphrase from memory, "I have attempted to learn the language of the Greeks, but it is very difficult. After many years I can barely speak their language, but understanding how to write their language is most difficult."

And there have been proofs of this, and also internal evidence makes it plainly obvious. Search one of the Aramaic translators by the name of Bauscher. His translation is okay, not phenomenal (remember, the translation into English is still only as good as the translators' attempt). He has written a couple books that prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the New Testament written in Aramaic (called the Peshitta) is the actual language of God, and these proofs are remarkable.

I will post an image here now, that is just a very tiny example, from Lamsa's Peshitta (His native language was Aramaic and translated the original Aramaic manuscripts that the "Church of the East" has always claimed that they had the original manuscripts from the 1st century).

In this example, you will see that the Aramaic word "rope" looks almost identical to the Aramaic word "camel". The Greek translators translated that word as "camel" when they translated the verse which later gave rise to a ridiculous modern teaching that there was a hole in the wall around Jerusalem that late night journeyers would attempt to push their camel through this hole. Ridiculous teachings, and propagated throughout.

And Vine's expository dictionary on the Greek New Testament words also states this regarding "needle" - The idea of applying 'the needle's eye' to small gates seems to be a modern one; there is no ancient trace of it. The Lord's object in the statement is to express human impossibility and there is no need to endeavor to soften the difficulty by taking the needle to mean anything more than the ordinary instrument. Mackie point outs (Hastings' Bib. Dic.) that "an attempt is sometimes made to explain the words as a reference to the small door, a little over 2 feet square, in the large heavy gate of a walled city. This mars the figure without materially altering the meaning, and receives no justification from the language and traditions of Palestine."

So what Jesus actually said, which only makes sense, is that "It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

And the New Testament was written in Aramaic. See image above:
 
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NewMusic

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The antichrist is not the false prophet. The antichrist is the false god who the false prophet proclaims as genuine with lying signs and wonders.

So Curtis, you are making the same fleshly error that almost all "christians" do. That is, you speculate and use your human rationale, trying to "figure out" God's word. And it will ALWAYS be wrong when you do such a thing.

Now I will give scriptural proof to what I wrote the first time. I said that the character everybody calls "the antichrist" in actuality is called "the false prophet" in the bible. I'm now pasting from an essay I wrote:


I’d like now to deviate just for a minute to give you a bit of teaching outside the main topic of this paper, just because it is important and helpful in your understanding. The correct title of the man of lawlessness is “the false prophet”. That is his title according to the bible. People and Hollywood and many Christians over the centuries have called him the anitchrist, but that is not truly his title, although he is anti-christ. The term antichrist only occurs in the 1st and 2nd epistles of John, and refers to anybody and everybody who denies Jesus Christ and His Father, or denies that Jesus has come in the flesh. Read:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
= = = = = =
1 John 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
= = = = = =
1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1 John 4:3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
= = = = = =
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

So now you understand that all the people who deny Jesus, are also antichrist.

But with regard to that "one", the false prophet, see more clarification here:

Rev 16:13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan) and out of the mouth of the beast (the 7-headed beast with 10 horns organization) and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

And again here:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The figurative unholy trinity, if you wish to make such a statement, consists of Satan, his 7-headed beast organization (the New World Order if you like), and the false prophet (the one who mandates the mark of the beast on humanity).
 

NewMusic

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Note that both His return and the day of the lord shall come upon people as a thief in the night

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This establishes that the day of the lord and the His return to earth are in the same time period.

In Zechariah 14:1 the day of Lord followed by His return with all the saints in 14:5 occurs, as confirmation that the two events are in the same time period,

2 Thessalonians 2:1 equates the day of the lord with the coming of Jesus to gather us to be with Him. and says that it won’t happen until the mid trib event called the Son of perdition/abomination of desolation occurs, putting the rapture and the day of the lord at the mid tribulation point.

Matthew 24 has the sequences of the son of perdition mid trib event, followed by the day of the Lord, and then the rapture. Verses 15, 29, 30, and 31, as more confirmation of this.

The rapture therefore is mid trib, pre mark, and premillennial

You have not established anything by quoting the verses you quoted.

Stay tuned. I'm getting ready to upload my essay that proves when the Lord returns, the TIMING of this event, by using scriptures that demonstrate TIMING, i.e. sequence of events, as the bible outlines. I am hesitant because I know people will take my teaching that God has given me and then go publish it to make money or a name for themselves. It's startling, what I will demonstrate from the word.
 

marks

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In this example, you will see that the Aramaic word "rope" looks almost identical to the Aramaic word "camel". The Greek translators translated that word as "camel" when they translated the verse which later gave rise to a ridiculous modern teaching that there was a hole in the wall around Jerusalem that late night journeyers would attempt to push their camel through this hole. Ridiculous teachings, and propagated throughout.
I've looked at these things. My Greek teacher was also an expert on ancient languages of the Levant, and had some very good information on the subject. I consider the Greek autographs of the New Testament to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Are you familiar with the peculiarity in how John wrote using "ek" and "apo"? That's what I find to be of paqrticular note here.

BTW . . . had John written in Aramaic or Hebrew (the actual language they used), and that that to be translated into Greek for our current New Testament, that would have been very sloppy translation, and how would you trust any of it?

Someone who doesn't know the difference between Greek prepositions translating the Holy Scriptures? I'm thinking this is a pretty good argument against that.

Much love!
 

Truman

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For me, the phrase, "the wrath of God" brings to mind what I perceive to be a temporary anointing for spiritual warfare.
I believe that's what one would call it and man, is it powerful! And it feels amazing, too! All tingly! Lol
The enemy doesn't stand a chance! Aha!
 

Curtis

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You have not established anything by quoting the verses you quoted.

Stay tuned. I'm getting ready to upload my essay that proves when the Lord returns, the TIMING of this event, by using scriptures that demonstrate TIMING, i.e. sequence of events, as the bible outlines. I am hesitant because I know people will take my teaching that God has given me and then go publish it to make money or a name for themselves. It's startling, what I will demonstrate from the word.
Sorry, you’re too late, I already proved the mid trib rapture using the timing event of the son of perdition.

I suggest you read my earlier post, and this time pay more attention to timing events in it.

Shalom Aleichem
 

Curtis

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So Curtis, you are making the same fleshly error that almost all "christians" do. That is, you speculate and use your human rationale, trying to "figure out" God's word. And it will ALWAYS be wrong when you do such a thing.

Now I will give scriptural proof to what I wrote the first time. I said that the character everybody calls "the antichrist" in actuality is called "the false prophet" in the bible. I'm now pasting from an essay I wrote:


I’d like now to deviate just for a minute to give you a bit of teaching outside the main topic of this paper, just because it is important and helpful in your understanding. The correct title of the man of lawlessness is “the false prophet”. That is his title according to the bible. People and Hollywood and many Christians over the centuries have called him the anitchrist, but that is not truly his title, although he is anti-christ. The term antichrist only occurs in the 1st and 2nd epistles of John, and refers to anybody and everybody who denies Jesus Christ and His Father, or denies that Jesus has come in the flesh. Read:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
= = = = = =
1 John 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
= = = = = =
1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1 John 4:3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
= = = = = =
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

So now you understand that all the people who deny Jesus, are also antichrist.

But with regard to that "one", the false prophet, see more clarification here:

Rev 16:13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan) and out of the mouth of the beast (the 7-headed beast with 10 horns organization) and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

And again here:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The figurative unholy trinity, if you wish to make such a statement, consists of Satan, his 7-headed beast organization (the New World Order if you like), and the false prophet (the one who mandates the mark of the beast on humanity).
The antichrist is a man who is possessed by Satan at the mid trib point.

A prophet is a messenger for God, thus by definition a false prophet is a messenger for a false God. The antichrist steps into the temple and claims to be God, and the false prophet commands worship of that false God.

There is a beast ran system, but the beast is not the system himself

You still have much to learn, yet.

Maranatha
 

Curtis

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View attachment 17476

The entire New Testament was not written in Greek, but translated into Greek from Aramaic.

I know that about 99% of the seminaries in the world teach that God had his New Testament written in the language of the Gentile Greeks, but that just is not true. The Jews considered the Gentiles as awful, would not eat their food, nor touch their things, not allow them into their homes, and the last thing they would do was learn their language. The greatest historian of that era is Josephus, who documented the wars of the Romans, and against the Jews, and himself said, and I paraphrase from memory, "I have attempted to learn the language of the Greeks, but it is very difficult. After many years I can barely speak their language, but understanding how to write their language is most difficult."

And there have been proofs of this, and also internal evidence makes it plainly obvious. Search one of the Aramaic translators by the name of Bauscher. His translation is okay, not phenomenal (remember, the translation into English is still only as good as the translators' attempt). He has written a couple books that prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the New Testament written in Aramaic (called the Peshitta) is the actual language of God, and these proofs are remarkable.

I will post an image here now, that is just a very tiny example, from Lamsa's Peshitta (His native language was Aramaic and translated the original Aramaic manuscripts that the "Church of the East" has always claimed that they had the original manuscripts from the 1st century).

In this example, you will see that the Aramaic word "rope" looks almost identical to the Aramaic word "camel". The Greek translators translated that word as "camel" when they translated the verse which later gave rise to a ridiculous modern teaching that there was a hole in the wall around Jerusalem that late night journeyers would attempt to push their camel through this hole. Ridiculous teachings, and propagated throughout.

And Vine's expository dictionary on the Greek New Testament words also states this regarding "needle" - The idea of applying 'the needle's eye' to small gates seems to be a modern one; there is no ancient trace of it. The Lord's object in the statement is to express human impossibility and there is no need to endeavor to soften the difficulty by taking the needle to mean anything more than the ordinary instrument. Mackie point outs (Hastings' Bib. Dic.) that "an attempt is sometimes made to explain the words as a reference to the small door, a little over 2 feet square, in the large heavy gate of a walled city. This mars the figure without materially altering the meaning, and receives no justification from the language and traditions of Palestine."

So what Jesus actually said, which only makes sense, is that "It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."

And the New Testament was written in Aramaic. See image above:

It’s a well known fact that except for Matthew, which may have been in Aramaic originally, the NT was written in koine Greek - because that was the universal language and business language of that day - just as English is today.

Greek was in fact so pervasive, that the Jews translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, and produced the Septuagint.

Someone’s been misleading you.

Maranatha
 

Nancy

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Not this thread, but a different one I will create later tonight, will outline clearly the true teaching of Christ regarding the TIMING of this thing called the "rapture". Look for it in a few hours from now.

Meanwhile, there are a couple of things that Pre-Trib believers hang a lot of their conclusions on based on a deduction that they misunderstand. I will post a couple of those now.

First a sample of verses using the word wrath:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1Thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Thess 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

Now from those verses, and a few others that are similar, and the fact that there are 7 bowls of wrath identified in Revelation chapter 16, it's easy to conclude (if we had nothing else to go by) that somehow the saints must not be here on earth during the last 3½ years known as the Great Tribulation. And we know that those 7 bowls of wrath transpire during the last 3½ years because at the 1st bowl of wrath this is written:

Revelation 16:2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

NOTE: Clearly, this first plague (or bowl of wrath) will not occur on the saints BECAUSE they obviously will refuse the mark of the beast. So the saints escape this first "wrath" or plague of God.

That is obviously at the start of the last 3½ years because we are told in Revelation 13 that the false prophet (known as the 2nd beast of Revelation 13, also commonly called the anti-christ though that is not his proper title. His proper title is "the false prophet".) along with the 7-headed beast w/10 horns organization are granted full authority over the entire globe for 42 months and the mandate of the mark of the beast, too. Read:

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

And regardless of your position on the timing of the rapture (pre, mid, post) everybody is in agreement that what brings an end to those 42 months of the Satanic system is the return of Jesus Christ.

Now those deductions the pre-tribbers make are sensible, if there were not some other verses to help make better clarity of it all. So now we have these:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

This verse in 12:12 tells us that the devil's wrath will also be occurring on the earth in the end days.

So God's wrath and the devil's wrath at the same time?

Hmmmm... interesting.

Then we have

Revelation 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Now that is clear as day. We are told in no uncertain terms that the wrath of God is the lake of fire!

So what do we make of the 7 bowls of wrath during the Great Tribulation?

Well, we are also told to interpret those particular wraths as plagues. This from chapter 15 which precedes chapter 16, i.e. the bowls of wrath. Read:

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

So up to this point, it would
seem that there is conflicting evidence on the subject on the wrath of God. And how do we interpret the verses at the top of this page which says that the saved will escape the wrath of God, but the wicked will not be spared?

Easy. With more comprehensive bible knowledge now outlined on the subject (above), we can now use logic/deduction, along with a couple more verses to illustrate.

* Do you really think that all the evil and wicked men of the past 6000 years have escaped the wrath of God because they died before the Great Tribulation???

Please think on those words. Really. Read that point again and think about it.

The Great Tribulation only lasts a mere 3½ years. As a percentage of man's history, that is only 3.5 divided by 6000 which equals .0005833333, or .0583% of all history of man. So if you think the wrath of God is the Great Tribulation, then basically you believe that ALL THE WICKED MEN since Cain killed Abel and throughout all history (and let us not forget those who murdered the prophets, those who murdered Jesus and spit on Him, those who burned the Christians alive, or fed them to hungry lions, or the evil Spanish inquisition, Stalin, Mao, Castro, or just plain rapists, etc.),, get a free pass and do not suffer God's wrath. Because they died before the great tribulation. Is that what you really believe?

You can see immediately that such an interpretation is bogus.

No, all evil, unrepented men and women throughout history will indeed suffer the wrath of God, and since almost all men and women (in excess of 99% of all humanity since Adam) did not experience the near future Great Tribulation, we know that the true meaning of escaping the wrath of God (as the opening verses I pasted above) means the righteous escape the
Lake of Fire, not the plagues of Revelation 16.

= = = = = = =

Hello @NewMusic , welcome here.
Your post holds much good information, I am not a pre tribber either.
One thing you had written leads me to believe that you think there is only ONE man of sin coming, not the A.C. and his sidekick the F.P.
Correct me there if I misread.
This is of interest to me as, most Christians are looking for the two of them. Something I had read awhile back led me to believe it will be just ONE man who will come on the worlds stage and deceive many.
God bless
 

Curtis

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How much do you know about John's use of "ek" and "apo"? Suffice to say, he wasn't the sharpest of the Greek writers. This has a part to play in interpreting the text.

And is it true than they you don't see these events laid out sequentially? That the seals are opened before the trumpets, the trumpets sounded before the bowls? The 2 witnesses for 3.5 years, then the beast for 3.5 years, like that?

Much love!

I know that the mark is given for 42 months, 3.5 years, which is what makes that time period the great tribulation, and thus anyone seen by John in heaven who came out of the great tribulation are martyrs who had their heads cut off for refusing the mark.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.