Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

David in NJ said:

Brother do you seek to disobey the Lord? He gave to you a Eternal Commandment - do you hate Him for it?

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What 'Lord' are you referring to? I hate neither our Father, Yahweh, nor our Lord Jesus. What 'eternal commandment' are you referring to? You're not making yourself very clear.

Robert Gwin said:

Then I will ask this same question to you sir, if Jesus is God then he lied for sure at Mark 10:40 and 13:32, so if we cannot believe his words, what hope do we have?

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Different parts of Godhead have different functions and actions.

keithr said:

What 'Lord' are you referring to? I hate neither our Father, Yahweh, nor our Lord Jesus. What 'eternal commandment' are you referring to? You're not making yourself very clear.

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The Eternal Commandment that God established in Genesis and which He made CLEAR in Exodus to all who want to follow Him to the Promised Land in Heaven where He is.

Exodus 3: 14-15
God(Elohim) said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

THREE ELOHIM
ELOHIM Abraham - Father
ELOHIM Isaac - Son
ELOHIM Jacob - Holy Spirit

We are commanded to assemble ourselves under and in these THREE ELOHIM.
Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = Father Son Holy Spirit =
these Three are Echad

Ronald Nolette said:

Well the fact Jesus was tempted yet resisted shows He is God!

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I'm sure that, like me, you have at some time been tempted and have resisted the temptation. That doesn't mean that you and I are God, so why does Jesus resisting temptation show that he was God? That is illogical.

BTW, Satan correctly knew who Jesus was when he tempted him, Luke 4:3 (WEB):


So Satan addressed him as "the Son of God". Satan knew that he was not God. Likewise the demons, Mark 3:11 (WEB):

... just like jesus was allowed to feel all we feel and endure all we endure for one purpose- so He would act as a merciful High Priest.

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Why would God need to have those experiences, or to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8 - "though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered")?

God the son left heaven and became man. I accept He was fully god and fully man. I cannot argue how much man and how much God!

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There is no such person as "God the son" mentioned in the Bible. Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as "fully God and fully man", so you don't need to accept that!

1 Timothy 2:5 (WEB): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

See I agree with you thatr teh Father is above the Son, I have established that and even showed you that is SCripture. But that does not negate that jesus in nature is just as divine as His Father, though inferior to the Father in position. Why you and all others refuse to directly address this is a mystery.

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I (and others) don't refuse to address that - I/we attempt to understand and explain it, in a way that harmonises with all Scripture - it's not a mystery to us! As I've mentioned before, having the divine nature doesn't mean that you are God, just as your neighbour being a human being doesn't mean that he/she is you. When we are resurrected we too will gain the immortal divine nature, but we will not become God. Why is it so hard to accept that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and that he is not God? Believe Satan and the demons, who addressed Jesus as the Son of God. Believe Peter, who declared, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16 WEB), and Jesus then declared (verse 18) ,"upon this rock [foundation] I will build my church".

Believe Jesus! Jesus said, John 3 (ASV):

David in NJ said:

Exodus 3: 14-15
God(Elohim) said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

THREE ELOHIM
ELOHIM Abraham - Father
ELOHIM Isaac - Son
ELOHIM Jacob - Holy Spirit

We are commanded to assemble ourselves under and in these THREE ELOHIM.
Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them,
‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob = Father Son Holy Spirit =
these Three are Echad

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We've been over this before. As previously mentioned, you're misreading it and making incorrect assumptions. "The LORD" is "Yahweh", (or "Jehovah" if you prefer). God said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, ..., has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever". Yahweh is His name. There are not three Gods (three elohim), there is one God, whose name is Yahweh, who states that He was the God of Israel's ancestors, going back to Abraham. You cannot assume that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should be read as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the one God is three God's. That is a gross misunderstanding and corrupting of those verses.

keithr said:

I'm sure that, like me, you have at some time been tempted and have resisted the temptation. That doesn't mean that you and I are God, so why does Jesus resisting temptation show that he was God? That is illogical.

BTW, Satan correctly knew who Jesus was when he tempted him, Luke 4:3 (WEB):

The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”​

So Satan addressed him as "the Son of God". Satan knew that he was not God. Likewise the demons, Mark 3:11 (WEB):

The unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, “You are the Son of God!”​

Why would God need to have those experiences, or to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8 - "though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered")?


There is no such person as "God the son" mentioned in the Bible. Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as "fully God and fully man", so you don't need to accept that!

1 Timothy 2:5 (WEB): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


I (and others) don't refuse to address that - I/we attempt to understand and explain it, in a way that harmonises with all Scripture. As I've mentioned before, having the divine nature doesn't mean that you are God, just as your neighbour being a human being doesn't mean that he/she is you. When we are resurrected we too will gain the immortal divine nature, but we will not become God. Why is it so hard to accept that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and that he is not God? Believe Satan and the demons, who addressed Jesus as the Son of God. Believe Peter, who declared, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16 WEB), and Jesus then declared (verse 18) ,"upon this rock [foundation] I will build my church".

Believe Jesus! Jesus said, John 3 (ASV):

17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
18) He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

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Your beginning is not scriptural but at least you ended correctly.

JESUS, the son of man in the flesh is the only Begotten Son of God.

Jehovah(who is Jesus before He came to earth as a man born of a virgin) is the Elohim of Genesis and Exodus and Isaiah.

“To whom will you liken Me,
or who is My equal?” asks the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high:
Who created all these? Isaiah 40

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Scripture declare Jesus as Jehovah and as God because He is equal/echad/One with God.
I and My Father are One - John 10:30

For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior - Isa 43
You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and My servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may consider and believe Me
and understand that I am He.
Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.

Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other Name(JESUS) under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4
He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.
And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Timothy 1

keithr said:

We've been over this before. As previously mentioned, you're misreading it and making incorrect assumptions. "The LORD" is "Yahweh", (or "Jehovah" if you prefer). God said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, ..., has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever". Yahweh is His name. There are not three Gods (three elohim), there is one God, whose name is Yahweh, who states that He was the God of Israel's ancestors, going back to Abraham. You cannot assume that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should be read as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the one God is three God's. That is a gross misunderstanding and corrupting of those verses.

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Yeah, i get it, but you refuse to get it. Even though it is spelled out to you all throughout Scripture.
That is your choice.

keithr said:

I'm sure that, like me, you have at some time been tempted and have resisted the temptation. That doesn't mean that you and I are God, so why does Jesus resisting temptation show that he was God? That is illogical.

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Maybe to you it is illogical but not to Jesus. He never sinned once- He had no sin nature because He is God the Son.

keithr said:

So Satan addressed him as "the Son of God". Satan knew that he was not God. Likewise the demons, Mark 3:11 (WEB):

The unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, “You are the Son of God!”

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Which shows He is divine. He is not god the Father but He is as divine as god the Father! Just like if you have a son- He is just as human as you are!

keithr said:

Why would God need to have those experiences, or to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8 - "though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered")?

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bible doesn't say why-just that He did, so He did.

keithr said:

There is no such person as "God the son" mentioned in the Bible. Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as "fully God and fully man", so you don't need to accept that!

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I agree! It is just a term to describe that He is god (John 1:1) He is equal to God (John 5) and was God in human flesh _Emmanuel (Matthew) amongst many other passages. NO where does it say god is omniscient but we know He is so we made the word to describe the truth!

keithr said:

I (and others) don't refuse to address that - I/we attempt to understand and explain it, in a way that harmonises with all Scripture - it's not a mystery to us! As I've mentioned before, having the divine nature doesn't mean that you are God, just as your neighbour being a human being doesn't mean that he/she is you. When we are resurrected we too will gain the immortal divine nature, but we will not become God. Why is it so hard to accept that Jesus is God's only begotten son, and that he is not God? Believe Satan and the demons, who addressed Jesus as the Son of God. Believe Peter, who declared, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16 WEB), and Jesus then declared (verse 18) ,"upon this rock [foundation] I will build my church".

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and this tells me you are a very very careless reader. I have siad over and over again Jesus is not His Father . But the Bible calls Him god which makes Him just as divine as His Father. YOu stubbornly refuse to accept the fact that the word God- has two uses.
1. It refers to a person who is a diety (in this case god the Father)
2. It refers to a nature or essence of an entity- In this case Jesus! So Jesus can be God without being the God.

God made it simple if you look by using plural nouns, calling Jesus God, calling HIm God in human flesh, saying He is Equal to Him and also that He is subordinate to Him in authgority and exaltation.. There are two issues being spoken of here and two people spoken of.

Just like Jesus is called Yahweh in Isaiah and the First and last in Revelation and the almighty in revelation- and yet only Yahweh is called fiorst and last and almighty and that Yahweh would not share His glory with anyone! But Jesus shares the same Glory as Yahweh. Why Because as Isaiah says He is Yahweh, the Son.

David in NJ said:

Jehovah (who is Jesus before He came to earth as a man born of a virgin) is the Elohim of Genesis and Exodus and Isaiah.

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If Jehovah, who is referenced throughout the Old Testament, is Jesus, then who is Jesus' Father? No other God, or part of God, is mentioned in the Old Testament. Who was it that raised Jesus from death?

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

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If Jehovah was Jesus then who is the God of Jehovah/Jesus that is speaking in that verse? It can't be Jesus talking to himself!

Scripture declare Jesus as Jehovah and as God

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No it doesn't! Jesus said, “go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God’” (John 20:17). He refers to Christians as his brothers, and our God as his God and Father. He was not lying!

As you quoted, (Isaiah 43:10 WEB):

There is no 'we' in those sentences. Yahweh alone was God. Jesus is Yahweh's son - he is not God.

Ronald Nolette said:

Which shows He is divine. He is not god the Father but He is as divine as god the Father! Just like if you have a son- He is just as human as you are!

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Just because he is the Son of God, and has a similar spirit being nature as God, that doesn't mean that he is God! You are not your father, Jesus is not his Father - he is not God.

bible doesn't say why-just that He did, so He did.

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God did not need to learn what it means to be obedient. God's only begotten son did learn what it meant, by obeying God's will rather than his own:

Luke 22:42 (WEB): saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”

Isaiah 40 (WEB):
13) Who has directed Yahweh’s Spirit, or has taught him as his counselor?
14) Who did he take counsel with, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?
25) “To whom then will you liken me? Who is my equal?” says the Holy One.

He is equal to God (John 5)

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John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God". The Jews erroneously thought that by claiming to be God's son that he was claiming equality with God - but he wasn't! Philippians 2:6 (WEB) - "who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped".

YOu stubbornly refuse to accept the fact that the word God- has two uses.
1. It refers to a person who is a diety (in this case god the Father)
2. It refers to a nature or essence of an entity- In this case Jesus! So Jesus can be God without being the God.

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Yes, Jesus is a god, but he is not the one and only almighty God. You're beginning to understand John 1:1!

Just like Jesus is called Yahweh in Isaiah and the First and last in Revelation and the almighty in revelation- and yet only Yahweh is called fiorst and last and almighty and that Yahweh would not share His glory with anyone! But Jesus shares the same Glory as Yahweh. Why Because as Isaiah says He is Yahweh, the Son.

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Jesus is not called the 'almighty' in Revelation, and Isaiah doesn't say that God's son is called Yahweh! If you think that is the case then quote the verses so we can discuss it.

keithr said:

If Jehovah, who is referenced throughout the Old Testament, is Jesus, then who is Jesus' Father? No other God, or part of God, is mentioned in the Old Testament. Who was it that raised Jesus from death?


If Jehovah was Jesus then who is the God of Jehovah/Jesus that is speaking in that verse? It can't be Jesus talking to himself!


No it doesn't! Jesus said, “go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God’” (John 20:17). He refers to Christians as his brothers, and our God as his God and Father. He was not lying!

As you quoted, (Isaiah 43:10 WEB):

“You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh, “With my servant [Moses] whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he. Before me there was no God formed, neither will there be after me.​

There is no 'we' in those sentences. Yahweh alone was God. Jesus is Yahweh's son - he is not God.

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Dear friend keithr, Good Morning and Blessings from Above for you and me and His Body - Amen.

Elohim declared Himself as a United One (echad) in Genesis at the very beginning = "Let Us make man in Our Image."
Genesis is the foundation of Truth that will be followed throughout Scripture concluding with Revelation.
God is often spoken of as a singular one for two reasons:
#1 there are no other gods beside Him
#2 The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are echad, They act as One and are inseparable from one another.

No human mind can fully comprehend this but God has given us His Word which declares it.
We have a choice to either believe and accept what God has said, from the Beginning, or to make our own minds and beliefs.

This is why the Word says it is absolutely necessary to have faith in Him and His Word to be Saved and to know Him.

Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

Elohim painted an Eternal Picture of Himself in Genesis = Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

These three men are a picture for us to be able to see the invisible God = "Let Us make man in Our Image".
The Lord Jesus Christ would confirm this in His Life and Words.

God made certain for us to know that the Godhead is Three Persons in One (Echad).
He validated this in Genesis and again to Moses in Exodus chapter 3.
He did this also in the writings of the prophets upon which our Lord came and confirmed in His own words and teachings.
The Apostles would also build upon this.
Finally - the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ completes His Knowledge and Truth for us who trust His Word.

michaelvpardo said:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

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Whenever I come across this, I look up again the definition of rote. What does it have to do with the OP question?

This thread is not about mystery but using reason to grasp Scripture. Logic is the art of the non-contradictory identification of truth. To paraphrase Galileo, I don't believe God would give us reason to forgo its use.

Does this mean there is no mysteries? Of course not. It means that logic still works even if some things remain unknown to us. However, unknown is not the same thing as a contradiction.

keithr said:

If Jehovah, who is referenced throughout the Old Testament, is Jesus, then who is Jesus' Father? No other God, or part of God, is mentioned in the Old Testament. Who was it that raised Jesus from death?

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Yahweh/Jehovah is not a name for the Father but for the Godhead as a whole, it is just a descriptive title "He Who Is and Who Shall Be" and the like, for which all the Persons of the Trinity are in true. The Persons of the Trinity in the light of the New Testament are also at times distinguished in the OT, such as in the second Psalm.

As for who raised Jesus the Bible says all three Persons did so, "I lay down my life and take it up again," "the Father declared the Son according to the Holy Spirit by the Resurrection," and of course the many mentions of the Father raising Jesus from the dead. This is because all three Persons of the Trinity have the same operations/acts which is (other than having one nature) part of why there is one Deity. "What the Father does the Son does" and so on.

Wrangler said:

However, unknown is not the same thing as a contradiction.

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Demonstrate the contradiction in the Trinity. I already know you'll be unable to, but it would be interesting to see what you think is a contradiction in it.

Abaxvahl said:

Demonstrate the contradiction in the Trinity. I already know you'll be unable to, but it would be interesting to see what you think is a contradiction in it.

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One is not three. The trinity is inherently contradictory and it is easy to demonstrate. In fact, the inherent contradiction is always demonstrated when used. Perhaps it makes sense to you that Jesus fathered himself or that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus, making "the Father" not the father of Jesus.

Wrangler said:

Whenever I come across this, I look up again the definition of rote. What does it have to do with the OP question?

This thread is not about mystery but using reason to grasp Scripture. Logic is the art of the non-contradictory identification of truth. To paraphrase Galileo, I don't believe God would give us reason to forgo its use.

Does this mean there is no mysteries? Of course not. It means that logic still works even if some things remain unknown to us. However, unknown is not the same thing as a contradiction.

Click to expand...

Faith in what God has said is the 'reason' that God wants us to have. Without this, you cannot be saved.
Logic is a tool that we use to asses fact from fiction. But logic is weak in that it cannot see beyond this realm.
God has spoken to us through His Word which is His Son - this requires faith. Faith leads and logic follows.

When sinful man attempts to read and understand God's Word based on logic, he falls into the pit of religion.
Logic and/or religion cannot save you - never has and never will.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Wrangler said:

One is not three. The trinity is inherently contradictory and it is easy to demonstrate. In fact, the inherent contradiction is always demonstrated when used. Perhaps it makes sense to you that Jesus fathered himself or that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus, making "the Father" not the father of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Faith in what God has said is the 'reason' that God wants us to have. Without this, you cannot be saved.
Logic is a tool that we use to asses fact from fiction. But logic is weak in that it cannot see beyond this realm.
God has spoken to us through His Word which is His Son - this requires faith. Faith leads and logic follows.

When sinful man attempts to read and understand God's Word based on logic, he falls into the pit of religion.
Logic and/or religion cannot save you - never has and never will.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Wrangler said:

One is not three. The trinity is inherently contradictory and it is easy to demonstrate. In fact, the inherent contradiction is always demonstrated when used. Perhaps it makes sense to you that Jesus fathered himself or that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus, making "the Father" not the father of Jesus.

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1) The number one is not the number three, we are in agreement, and the Trinity does not make anyone hold that "1 is 3." Amen.
2) Jesus didn't father Himself and the Holy Spirit didn't father Jesus, and Jesus truly had the Father as His Father. Him not truly having a Father wouldn't make sense to me either. So again, we are in agreement. Amen.

I notice you didn't active demonstrate the contradiction in the doctrine of the Trinity though, which is fascinating. Perhaps you need a refresher on what precisely it is we believe, so I quote the divinely inspired Creed for you which is confessed on every Sunday:

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

"And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God [by nature, being the same Person as the Father] of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made: consubstantial with the Father; by Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from Heaven: and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary: and was made man [not due to a change of divinity into flesh but an assumption of humanity to God]. He was crucified also for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. And He ascended into Heaven and sitteth at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead: of Whose kindgom there shall be no end.

"And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life: Who proceedeth [by proienai not ekporeusis] from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified: Who spoke through the Prophets.

"And in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen"

Comments in square brackets made by me for clarity (quoting only other authoritative Trinitarian sources such as St. Maximus the Confessor and the Athanasian Creed for that information). Please demonstrate the contradiction in the above Creed.