Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Of course Christ did not destroy the law or do away with it, it is still in effect for the Jews.

No it's not. Just because they rejected the New Covenant doesn't mean the old is still in effect for them.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Mosaic Law governed a father selling his daughters as a sex slave....concubinage.

The law governed how you do that. It didn't tell you to do that.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
According to the Mosaic Law if a father sold his daughter off and she did not bleed on her first night with her husband, he had the right to kill her and leave her body at her father's door step.

And so you think God no longer requires the death penalty for being promiscuous? How can the law convict of sin and it's penalty if being promiscuous is no longer a punishable sin? That law is still very much intact. The difference is, that sin can be forgiven in this New Covenant and Jesus himself pays the required death for that behavior. Jesus does not do away with that penalty.

farouk · Sep 20, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
I do get what you are saying about not eating meat again as being spiritual and not literal. Significant to me is how if your meat destroys Your brother then you walk not charitable towards your brother. But at the same time I have to ask if the brother has not liberty (knowledge of this Liberty in Christ)then what meat is he refusing to eat (spiritual or literal)sacrificed to idols?

1 Corinthians 8:4-9 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. [7] Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. [8] But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. [9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. [5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: (Hebrews 11:6)
for they were overthrown in the wilderness. [6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. [7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. [9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1 Corinthians 8:11-12 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1 Corinthians 8:11-12 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and practice it not, to him it is sin.

[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. [12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

“They are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world is come”
Galatians 6:14-15 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. [15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
1 Corinthians 8:8-9 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. [9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Personally “if my meat makes my brother to offend I will not eat as long as the world stands” fits or to the age to come. Or with take heed that he who think he stands (in Christ) lest he falls. “They are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world is come”
Colossians 2:20-22 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

@VictoryinJesus Peter's vision in Acts kind of changes the perspective a lot on dietary matters in Scripture, IMHO....

It's good to concentrate on the moral and spiritual side of things...

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Mosaic Law governed the rules of war...kill all the breaths but keep the virgins for yourselves....and they were raped for the rest of their lives.

In our western culture it hard for us to understand and accept that in some cultures in times past men took wives for themselves, and it was accepted. God gave laws to govern that behavior in society. It sounds crazy to us because we don't have a hint of that tradition in our culture.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
The Mosaic Law required if a woman was raped in the city and she did not scream, she would be killed with her raper.

Because that shows she did not resist it and so is just as guilty as the man attacking her.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
The Mosaic Law if a woman was not engaged or married and she was raped, the rapist would pay for her and rape her the rest of her life.

Some cultures are very different than ours. And that was acceptable. It doesn't sit right with us because we don't do things that way. But if we had, God gave instructions on how to conduct oneself in that cultural tradition.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
It is not just the immorality of the Law but the spirit of the law that was seriously flawed.

It's flawed to you. You just have to go with it on faith that Paul is right about the law, not you:

"12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good." Romans 7:12

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Still as a whole and as a plan to bring mankind to the knowledge of a higher moral code...the Mosaic Law was a tutor but now that we have Christ's teachings of a much higher code of ethics and spirit, the Law no longer applies to Christians.

It was a tutor in that it convicted us of our sin and the just penalty we owe for those sins and for which there was no earthly redemption. That's how the law points us to Christ. It points to the way of faith in God and Christ's sacrifice and ministry. It leads us to justification by faith, not away from unholy laws, as you are suggesting:

"So the law became our guardian to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian." Galatians 3:24-25

FHII · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
am looking for something a little more specific.

Well, I can't get more specific. The 5 senses is what leads us to sin. Maybe along with pride... But all I can do is elaborate. But do you really need that? Do you really need me to explain how sight, touch, hearing, smelling and taste lead us to temptation and sin?

Honestly, I don't think any adult would need an explanation. Children might, but it would be easy to explain to them.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
No it's not. Just because they rejected the New Covenant doesn't mean the old is still in effect for them.

I can understand where some Christians think that God has given up on the Old Testament. Historically the Jews have done about everything they can to curse themselves....including the "let his blood be upon us and our children" thing. I grew up with Jews in Clayton and University City and they are stubborn, hard headed, and arrogant bunch. But I think God still loves them. And I think that He has a plan for them.

The fact that Christ was saying the Law would last until all things are accomplished, maybe a hint to that. And Paul was not telling the Jews to stop observing the Law. The Law still in effect....The Old Testament Covenant(s) are tied directly to the Law because as God explained in chapter 34 of Exodus, that He was going to make a covenant with all His people...just before He gave Moses the actual Ten Commandments (verses 12-26) that He instructed Moses to write down on the tablets. So if the Law is still in effect for the Jews then so is probably their agreement with God.

In practice it is more complicated because keeping the Law was always near to impossible. During Christ's time there were aspects of it that they could not obey because of the Romans. As it is today the Jewish religion has made some modifications. But again they cannot adhere to certain aspect of the Law. Although I cannot prove He has something planned for them, I am inclined to think He does.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
The law governed how you do that. It didn't tell you to do that.

First off if the Law was governing such things it was setting up a culture for it. The process of how the marriages transpired was detailed by the Law. Father and perspective groom would come up with the bride price and the Father was expected to deliver a virgin.

And not everything was their choice, there were a lot of things that they were commanded to do for certain circumstances.

The rules of war were laid out in detail.

The punishment for rape are detailed.....whether it be killing her with her raper or selling her to him to be raped for the rest of her life.

According to the Mosaic Law, Joseph could have killed Mary.

As far as polygamy goes, God took credit for giving King David, Saul's wives.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
And so you think God no longer requires the death penalty for being promiscuous? How can the law convict of sin and it's penalty if being promiscuous is no longer a punishable sin? That law is still very much intact. The difference is, that sin can be forgiven in this New Covenant and Jesus himself pays the required death for that behavior. Jesus does not do away with that penalty.

I believe in the death penalty. As far as God or us killing sinners...we pretty much leave that up to the civil authorities. As far as penalty for in Christianity, you and I know how that goes.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
In our western culture it hard for us to understand and accept that in some cultures in times past men took wives for themselves, and it was accepted. God gave laws to govern that behavior in society. It sounds crazy to us because we don't have a hint of that tradition in our culture.

For the Hebrews God set up the culture and it was defined by the Mosaic Law and even for what it would be like for women...God said to Eve...Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

Ancient cultures can be difficult to understand....But the Mosaic Law setup a cruel and harsh spirit that has no place in Christianity. That is probably why Christ warned about mixing these two religions, warning that it would ruin them both.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
It's flawed to you. You just have to go with it on faith that Paul is right about the law, not you:

"12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good." Romans 7:12

This what I keep trying to explain is the religious literary style of the time period. As you pointed out Paul said the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. And then says that it was a ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, and explain that it was curse that Christ saved us from.....Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. And as I keep pointing out Paul said the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Grailhunter · Sep 20, 2021

FHII said:
Well, I can't get more specific. The 5 senses is what leads us to sin. Maybe along with pride... But all I can do is elaborate. But do you really need that? Do you really need me to explain how sight, touch, hearing, smelling and taste lead us to temptation and sin?

Honestly, I don't think any adult would need an explanation. Children might, but it would be easy to explain to them.

Whatever you are comfortable with.
My intent for starting this thread was not to judge or condemn but to address the fact that some could be beating themselves up over sins that are not sins at all. When Christianity came up with all these man-made sin...in effect it is like placing us back under the burden of the Law....You effectively make laws by making up sins. In other words, play god. It makes it harder to apply Christianity and distracts from the biblical sins and what we should be doing. Hunker down to keep from sinning....Christianity can become a don't doers religion. Christ is not going to judge a lady if she wear pants and smokes and drinks beer while she is barbecuing baby back ribs....but if she never helps anyone...read the conclusion of the Sheep and the Goats parable.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
And as I keep pointing out Paul said the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

That's right (the emboldened part ↑↑↑). You have to keep the matter of the law being a tutor in the context of justification that Paul uses it in. We are no longer under the law in regard to the law being a source of justification (to the extent that it could/could not justify-Acts of the Apostles 13:39). He is not saying the commands of the law are thrown away now and we don't need any of them.

Ferris Bueller · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
For the Hebrews God set up the culture and it was defined by the Mosaic Law and even for what it would be like for women...God said to Eve...Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

The order of headship was indeed established by God (1 Corinthians 11:3). How fallen man has handled it isn't, necessarily, and yet it's apparent God recognizes that fact and even allowed Moses to accommodate it (Matthew 19:8), and so he established laws to govern the way men of times past exercised their role of head of woman (i.e. how to divorce, etc.).

FHII · Sep 20, 2021

Grailhunter said:
My intent for starting this thread was not to judge or condemn but to address the fact that some could be beating themselves up over sins that are not sins at all. When Christianity came up with all these man-made sin...in effect it is like placing us back under the burden of the Law....You effectively make laws by making up sins

Well if that was your intent, it's my opinion that you failed miserably. I base that on your OP. I agree with you on the points you made in the quote above. But I see nothing about that in your OP when you were claiming to be the Johnny Appleseed of being good and claiming its not hard to live a near sinless life.

I have no problem if that's your intent now... We grow and evolve.

Truman · Sep 20, 2021

No matter how you look at it, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

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