Jesus Is God: Part 1

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Brakelite

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So if I may, where does this differ from Trinitarian doctrine?
It is in line with Orthodox Trinitarianism. But me, being somewhat rebellious throughout my life, have my doubts whether it's actually correct. I believe the Father/Son paradigm is literal ontologically. That the Son is a literal offspring of the Father... It was God Himself who initiated the whole concept knowing how we would naturally understand the idea, especially in relation to the word 'begotten'. I simply fail to reconcile the idea of an eternal person of the Son.
 

CadyandZoe

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I think the words must all be correct in the Bible, therefore, If Jesus had something then, He must have been there then to have it. Yes, He's putting the emphasis on glory, but He defines that glory as the glory He had before.

Much love!
The question is whether someone can "have" something before they are born or even exist. (I'm not arguing against the Trinity doctrine. The point is centered strictly on the meaning of the verse in question.) Can we find an example of this in everyday life? Can we find an example of someone "having" something before they were born, for instance?

Consider the principle of inheritance. Upon the age of maturity, would it make sense for a firstborn son to say to his father, "Father, please give me the inheritance I had with you before I was born?" Granted, it might sound funny, but it isn't absurd. Possession, in this instance, isn't predicated on ownership. The basis of the declaration is a promise. In this instance, the firstborn "has" the inheritance, even before he is born, because the inheritance is "with" the father, kept in the father's possession until the age of maturity.

In other words, I believe Jesus understood that glory was his inheritance, and that the father kept it for him to be given at the appropriate time. Jesus had it "with" the Father, even before the world was created.

You might say, "but no, Jesus is saying that he existed with the Father and they both had glory together." In other words, "Restore the glory to me that we previously shared together." The words can certainly be understood that way. Nevertheless, in this context, Jesus has focused on a particular instance of glory rather than the general state of glory. The particular instance of glorification Jesus has in mind is the cross.

The glory Jesus was to inherit, was the glory he would receive after his resurrection.

Notice . . . John 17:1

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You . . .

Jesus would allow himself to be arrested, tortured and killed at the hands of the state. He knew he would die and be buried for three days. He also knew that the Father would raise him after three days. Thus, on the day of his resurrection, while the father glorified his son, he glorified himself also. Through that one act, both father and son were glorified together.
 
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Wrangler

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For the Son of man is about to come in the Glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward to each according to his works. (Matthew 16:27).

I think you would have to argue here that the Father's Glory is not actually a Divine Glory.

Appeal to Diversion. I see that you completely abandon the field of your previous 'argument.' Now you reference an entirely different verse and again presume that your position is the default that must be proven against while you have no burden at all to prove your claims.

Matthew 16:27 indicates Jesus has no glory on his own. This is consistent with other statements Jesus made about the Father's glory. The Father alone is divine. The Father alone is divine. Also, notice that the Holy Spirit is no where to be seen in these verses, primarily because the 3rd person is non-existent.

It's so critical to keep in mind verses that, at best, support the man-is-god thesis but ignore there are 3 in the trinity. The claim of equality means you have the burden to show where Scripture says the Holy Spirit is about to come in the glory of God the Father.

In my multiple decades of interacting with trinitarians, they don't think this way. Rather they think if they prove Jesus is God, then the Holy Spirit comes along free for the ride of the trinity being correct.

I think you would have to argue here that the Father's Glory is not actually a Divine Glory.

Appeal to Strawman. Instead of trying to get me to make an argument you prefer, why don't you make a positive claim and argue from the text you provide?

The text does not say that Jesus is coming in the glory of the triune God of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit. Strong evidence that there is no such God.

And again, the Bible is filled with Being A does things on the behalf of Being B. Just this morning in Isaiah, the LORD God said the Assyrians would not conquer Jerusalem, that he would stop them. A few verses later an angel wiped out 185,000. This does not make the angel God.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Instead of trying to get me to make an argument you prefer, why don't you make a positive claim and argue from the text you provide?

Wrangler, I keep making positive claims from the text, but you keep ignoring them, or possibly missing them. You're so consumed with debate analysis that you have not had time left for actually reading my posts and figuring out what I am saying.
Matthew 16:27 indicates Jesus has no glory on his own.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” 5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7 But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” 8 When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. 9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:1-9).

Ok, now listen. I don't have a ton of time here, and if I write these things out, I don't want to hear any more about how I'm "not making any positive claims from the text." You're being hard-headed. In this passage, Jesus revealed two things at once: That He does have a glory of His own, but that it was not to be revealed to humanity until after He rose from the dead. The reason is because God designed things so that salvation would have to be by faith.

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:26-27)

26 If they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:26-31)

These verses likewise describe when His glory, which is the glory of His Father because they are One, will be revealed. The angels of God are here described as His angel's, not the Father's.

I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Out of His mouth came a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations... 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS... 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.

Let no one deceive you by any means, for that Day will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God showing himself that he is God... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, 8)

Again, this is when the Glory of the Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed to the world. It will shine as far as the East is from the West, meaning His glory will cover the entire sky, and by the power of His voice He will put to death millions of men. You can say this will not be God, but the rest of humanity will have a hard time believing you when these things take place. He will again be revealed for what He was before the incarnation: Clothed in the glory of the the Father which He had before the world began, because He and the Father are One.

1 These things spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to the heavens and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify You... 5 And now glorify me, Father, with the glory I had with You before the world began." (John 17:1, 5)
 
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marks

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In other words, I believe Jesus understood that glory was his inheritance, and that the father kept it for him to be given at the appropriate time. Jesus had it "with" the Father, even before the world was created.
You've just negated the meaning of the verse.

Jesus "had" it, but He didn't.

That doesn't work for me. I can't read the Bible that way.

Much love!
 

CadyandZoe

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You've just negated the meaning of the verse.

Jesus "had" it, but He didn't.

That doesn't work for me. I can't read the Bible that way.

Much love!
Yes. Jesus had it "with" the Father. That is, the father promised it to him and the father kept it until that day when it would be actualized.
 
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Wrangler

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In this passage, Jesus revealed two things at once: That He does have a glory of His own, but that it was not to be revealed to humanity until after He rose from the dead. The reason is because God designed things so that salvation would have to be by faith.

Oy vey. Again, you are not connecting the dots to the conclusion you want to support. Again, you quote another verse, skipping from one to another as if hoping something sticks. Other men have glory. Angels are described as having glory.

I agree that Jesus has glory - like all God's creation has glory. As far as 'special' glory that is divine and not merely a reflection of God, that is the gaping hole. Maybe you could finish this sentence; Jesus is God because ....

Or this sentence; This verse does more than suggest but proves Jesus is God because ...
 
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Wrangler

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You've just negated the meaning of the verse.

No. It's just that a valid interpretation of the verse undermines your doctrine.

That doesn't work for me. I can't read the Bible that way.

Revealing how personal you are taking textual criticism. The Good News is not that Jesus was God incarnate. The Good News is that the man Jesus having been resurrected into a glorified body is our proof of God's plan for us.


He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31 (VOICE)
 

Hidden In Him

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Oy vey. Again, you are not connecting the dots to the conclusion you want to support. Again, you quote another verse, skipping from one to another as if hoping something sticks. Other men have glory. Angels are described as having glory.

I agree that Jesus has glory - like all God's creation has glory. As far as 'special' glory that is divine and not merely a reflection of God, that is the gaping hole. Maybe you could finish this sentence; Jesus is God because ....

Or this sentence; This verse does more than suggest but proves Jesus is God because ...


Well Oy vey to you too, LoL. Which men aside from Christ (and which angels for that matter) does scripture say will be so glorified as to shine from East to West across the entire sky and kill millions of people with the breath of His mouth? That's my argument. :)

Again, you can agree that Jesus has glory, and argue that He will be only a reflection of God, but most people will be inclined to think He actually IS God under these conditions, given both the power and glory He will manifest.
 
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Wrangler

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Which men aside from Christ (and which angels for that matter) does scripture say will be so glorified as to shine from East to West across the entire sky and kill millions of people with the breath of His mouth? That's my argument

It's no argument at all! How in the world are you connecting in your mind shining across from East to West means he is God?

We agree Jesus is the Son of God. It is God who said he'd make his enemies a footstool for his son not Angels. But the son of God is not God anymore than the son of Joe Biden is Joe Biden.

You are not even attempting to complete the sentences I mentioned. My Bible says Jesus was given all authority. The one who gave is not the one who received. The Bible does not say that God was given all authority. Can you admit that Revelations 1:1 reads God gave the resurrected Jesus a revelation? (Not the father, but God in his unitarian nature, gave a revelation to Jesus). Can you admit this is what the text says?
 
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amadeus

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It is in line with Orthodox Trinitarianism. But me, being somewhat rebellious throughout my life, have my doubts whether it's actually correct. I believe the Father/Son paradigm is literal ontologically. That the Son is a literal offspring of the Father... It was God Himself who initiated the whole concept knowing how we would naturally understand the idea, especially in relation to the word 'begotten'. I simply fail to reconcile the idea of an eternal person of the Son.
What if God having initiated the real and perfect father and son relationship between Himself and Jesus... He then incorporated it into His plan for mankind as a goal to be pursued?

Of course, as we all know man has very often failed to live up to goals or ideals that God has presented. This is so for fathers and sons as well as for many other things. All part of God's plan and purpose!

Where are we heading?
Where is it that God wants us to be heading? Spending so much time embroiled in debates on the nature of God maybe there are really more important things that should be engaging us?
 
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Hidden In Him

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Can you admit that Revelations 1:1 reads God gave the resurrected Jesus a revelation? (Not the father, but God in his unitarian nature, gave a revelation to Jesus). Can you admit this is what the text says?

No, LoL. The text states, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His servants things which must shortly come to pass." It's about subordination, taking orders, and receiving what He was to share with the churches from His Father. As Jesus said in John, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I speak not of Myself, but the Father that dwells in Me, He does the work." (John 14:10). The Father did withhold from Him the timing of His return, but subordination as a Son doesn't disqualify the Lord Jesus Christ from being God, it simply means He is subordinate to Him AS God.
It is God who said he'd make his enemies a footstool for his son not Angels. But the son of God is not God anymore than the son of Joe Biden is Joe Biden.

You are comparing God to Joe Biden, which makes me (for one) cringe, LoL. I'm struggling to respect and pray for our President as it is.

9f9c768120-jpg.304818


Appeal to Majority.

I was appealing to common sense, LoL.
In revelations, John bows down to an angel. Just because he thought that does not make the angel God, right?

Angels who come from the presence of God bear the very power of the throne room. You may think you could withstand it yourself, and you are welcome to that belief, but I think you might find you were assuming too much if you ever have the same experience yourself.

What is that an appeal to? My not having a high enough estimation of you? Lol. :)

Wrangler, I appreciate the discussion and these are the kinds where I can usually pick up a few things here and there just from formulating answers. You have a decent head on your shoulders. But unfortunately I'm too busy for going round and round right now, and that's where we're going at this point.

God bless, and how about if we pick this up again when I have more time. I'm back into my work at this point.
 
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Wrangler

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The Father did withhold from Him the timing of His return, but subordination as a Son doesn't disqualify the Lord Jesus Christ from being God, it simply means He is subordinate to Him AS God.

On the contrary, subordination does disqualify one as being the Supreme Being, by definition.
 
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Hidden In Him

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On the contrary, subordination does disqualify one as being the Supreme Being, by definition.

I didn't say he was the Supreme Being. The thread is entitled "Jesus is God."

Did I not just ask you politely if we could end this tediousness? Answer me.
 

Wrangler

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You are comparing God to Joe Biden, which makes me (for one) cringe, LoL. I'm struggling to respect and pray for our President as it is.

Ha! We are on the same page there!

BTW, I was not comparing Joe to God but language usage. Paris of Troy in the Iliad is not the same as Troy of Paris. No son is the father. God is synonymous with the Father. ‘For us, there is on God, the Father.’ What do you make of this verse?

The Bible says many times God the Father. Not once does it say God the Holy Spirit. Not once does it say God the Son. Not once does it say the trinity you must believe to be saved. This means nothing to you?