Just ONE verse please! Just ONE!!!!!!

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 6, 2011

I have heard the following statement over and over and over again,

"...one of the purposes of the commandments is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly..."

But can ANYBODY quote just ONE scripture were God has EVER said the reason He gave us His laws is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly?

What sense does that make?
Did He give His angels His laws to show them the samething? After all....they broke His laws too!

Along with that, can anybody quote where God tells us that we MUST keep His laws perfectly.

Please note where ALL of our doctrine MUST come from.....

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And to go along with that God tells us the following.....

Luke 4
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

That would be Gen. to Rev.

We also have this given to us to use as a guide...

1 Thes.5 [21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2 Tim.4 ... make full proof of thy ministry.

So we are to use ALL of God's words, from Gen. to Rev., to PROVE what it is we teach and believe.

Note; at NO time did God ever say we are to go OUTSIDE of His words to prove doctrine!

So again......where did God ever say, "...one of the purposes of the commandments is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly..."

If it's in the bible I sure would like for someone to point it out to me. Because if it did not come from God, then whose doctrine is it?

And please..... make sure the quote is from the mouth of God and not from some quote of Paul's writings that most have gotten wrong.

.

Rach1370 · Apr 6, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
I have heard the following statement over and over and over again,

"...one of the purposes of the commandments is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly..."

But can ANYBODY quote just ONE scripture were God has EVER said the reason He gave us His laws is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly?

If it's in the bible I sure would like for someone to point it out to me. Because if it did not come from God, then whose doctrine is it?

[By Faith, or by Works of the Law?]
[3:1] O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [2] Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [3] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? [4] Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [5] Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— [6] just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
[The Righteous Shall Live by Faith]
[10] For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” [11] Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [12] But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [14] so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
[The Law and the Promise]
[15] To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. [16] Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [17] This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [18] For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
[19] Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [20] Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [22] But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[23] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [24] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
(Galatians 3:1-26 ESV)

And please..... make sure the quote is from the mouth of God and not from some quote of Paul's writings that most have gotten wrong.

Are you by any chance implying that proof must be of the OT, that the writings of Paul don't count? Or perhaps you're covering you bases...jumping in now and saying that everyone misunderstands what Paul is really saying. That way you can still accuse us of getting it wrong. Well, I didn't throw any slant on it, just copied it straight from the Bible, and I think it pretty much speaks for itself.

the stranger · Apr 6, 2011

But can ANYBODY quote just ONE scripture were God has EVER said the reason He gave us His laws is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly?

Romans 7:5-13 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]5[/sup]When we thought only of ourselves, the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die. [sup]6[/sup]But the Law no longer rules over us. We are like dead people, and it cannot have any power over us. Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law.

The Battle with Sin
[sup]7[/sup]Does this mean that the Law is sinful? Certainly not! But if it had not been for the Law, I would not have known what sin is really like. For example, I would not have known what it means to want something that belongs to someone else, unless the Law had told me not to do that. [sup]8[/sup]It was sin that used this command as a way of making me have all kinds of desires. But without the Law, sin is dead. [sup]9[/sup]Before I knew about the Law, I was alive. But as soon as I heard that command, sin came to life, [sup]10[/sup]and I died. The very command that was supposed to bring life to me, instead brought death. [sup]11[/sup]Sin used this command to trick me, and because of it I died. [sup]12[/sup]Still, the Law and its commands are holy and correct and good.

[sup]13[/sup]Am I saying that something good caused my death? Certainly not! It was sin that killed me by using something good. Now we can see how terrible and evil sin really is.

Along with that, can anybody quote where God tells us that we MUST keep His laws perfectly.

Romans 7:14-25 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]14[/sup]We know that the Law is spiritual. But I am merely a human, and I have been sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15[/sup]In fact, I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do what I know is right. I do the things I hate. [sup]16[/sup]Although I don't do what I know is right, I agree that the Law is good. [sup]17[/sup]So I am not the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.

[sup]18[/sup]I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot. [sup]19[/sup]Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong. [sup]20[/sup]And so, if I don't do what I know is right, I am no longer the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.

[sup]21[/sup]The Law has shown me that something in me keeps me from doing what I know is right. [sup]22[/sup]With my whole heart I agree with the Law of God. [sup]23[/sup]But in every part of me I discover something fighting against my mind, and it makes me a prisoner of sin that controls everything I do. [sup]24[/sup]What a miserable person I am. Who will rescue me from this body that is doomed to die? [sup]25[/sup]Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.

So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin.

Luke 4
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

That would be Gen. to Rev.

And please..... make sure the quote is from the mouth of God and not from some quote of Paul's writings that most have gotten wrong.

Can you explain yourself here friend. If you cannot take Paul's words, inspired from and by God, what part of the bible can you take?

God bless

Duckybill · Apr 6, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Be careful ECC, Paul wrote that.

the stranger · Apr 6, 2011

LOL I didn't think of that one!

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 7, 2011

Rach said:
[By Faith, or by Works of the Law?]
[3:1] O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. [2] Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? [3] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? [4] Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? [5] Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— [6] just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” [9] So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
[The Righteous Shall Live by Faith]
[10] For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” [11] Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” [12] But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” [13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— [14] so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
[The Law and the Promise]
[15] To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. [16] Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. [17] This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. [18] For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
[19] Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [20] Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [22] But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[23] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [24] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
(Galatians 3:1-26 ESV)

OK......So maybe I missed it! So just where in all of the above scriptures does PAUL say that God said, " The reason I am giving you these laws is to show you that you cannot keep them perfectly!"

If you can just point that out in the scriptures provided!

Please understand....I know that no one can keep God's laws perfectly...not even Job! My question is when did God say the REASON He gave us His Laws to to show us that!

Also..... Is that why He gave His laws to His angels? To show them that they too cannot keep them perfectly?

the stranger said:

LOL I didn't think of that one! Job 1:21-22 (King James Version)

Click to expand...

Not understanding what you are trying to say with this scripture. Please explain!

.

the stranger said:

Romans 7:5-13 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]5[/sup]When we thought only of ourselves, the Law made us have sinful desires. It made every part of our bodies into slaves who are doomed to die. [sup]6[/sup]But the Law no longer rules over us. We are like dead people, and it cannot have any power over us. Now we can serve God in a new way by obeying his Spirit, and not in the old way by obeying the written Law.

The Battle with Sin
[sup]7[/sup]Does this mean that the Law is sinful? Certainly not! But if it had not been for the Law, I would not have known what sin is really like. For example, I would not have known what it means to want something that belongs to someone else, unless the Law had told me not to do that. [sup]8[/sup]It was sin that used this command as a way of making me have all kinds of desires. But without the Law, sin is dead. [sup]9[/sup]Before I knew about the Law, I was alive. But as soon as I heard that command, sin came to life, [sup]10[/sup]and I died. The very command that was supposed to bring life to me, instead brought death. [sup]11[/sup]Sin used this command to trick me, and because of it I died. [sup]12[/sup]Still, the Law and its commands are holy and correct and good.

[sup]13[/sup]Am I saying that something good caused my death? Certainly not! It was sin that killed me by using something good. Now we can see how terrible and evil sin really is.

Romans 7:14-25 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]14[/sup]We know that the Law is spiritual. But I am merely a human, and I have been sold as a slave to sin. [sup]15[/sup]In fact, I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do what I know is right. I do the things I hate. [sup]16[/sup]Although I don't do what I know is right, I agree that the Law is good. [sup]17[/sup]So I am not the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.

[sup]18[/sup]I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot. [sup]19[/sup]Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong. [sup]20[/sup]And so, if I don't do what I know is right, I am no longer the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.

[sup]21[/sup]The Law has shown me that something in me keeps me from doing what I know is right. [sup]22[/sup]With my whole heart I agree with the Law of God. [sup]23[/sup]But in every part of me I discover something fighting against my mind, and it makes me a prisoner of sin that controls everything I do. [sup]24[/sup]What a miserable person I am. Who will rescue me from this body that is doomed to die? [sup]25[/sup]Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.

So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin.

Can you explain yourself here friend. If you cannot take Paul's words, inspired from and by God, what part of the bible can you take?

Never said I cannot take Pauls words, But If God did indeed say, " I am giving man my laws to show man he cannot keep them pefectly.", I would like to know where He said it. Not taking anything from Paul, but He has changed his mind before!

So just which scripture above says that God said man MUST keep all of His laws perfectly? Surely you can narrow it down to ONE!

.

/quote]

Click to expand...

Arnie Manitoba · Apr 7, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
"...one of the purposes of the commandments is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly..."

But can ANYBODY quote just ONE scripture were God has EVER said the reason He gave us His laws is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly?

These are maybe not the best examples for now Eccl , but it is implied in some of these verses that one of the purposes of the law is to identify sin, and we all sin (cannot keep the law)

There is a better verse (to answer your question) but it evades me at the moment. I will look again later. thanks.

.....................................................................................................................................

[sup]1 Corinthians 15 56[/sup] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 3 [sup]20[/sup] Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 7 4 the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

[sup]Romans 8 3[/sup] For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature

[sup]James 2 10[/sup] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[sup]Romans 7 7[/sup] What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” [sup]8[/sup] But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. [sup]9[/sup] Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [sup]10[/sup] I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [sup]11[/sup] For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

[sup]Galatians 3 [/sup] [sup]22[/sup] But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. [sup]23[/sup] Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. [sup]24[/sup] So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[sup] [/sup] that we might be justified by faith. [sup]25[/sup] Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[sup]Hebrews 7 11[/sup] If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood , for on the basis of it the law was given to the people, why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek,

[sup]Romans 5 20[/sup] The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 7, 2011

How about this crazy idea....

Could it be that God gave man His laws because He just wanted His creation to have some sort of law and order as we started to populate the earth? After all, almost ALL of the laws God gave to man are inforce in some form throughout the world!

As a matter of fact the ONLY laws that are not enforced or observed in some way are God's sacrifice laws, which, by the way, are in fact the ONLY laws that were nailed to His cross!

Let's read some of God's laws we still must keep. Let's start with a few Paul tells us to keep;

1 Cor.6
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And let's not forget this one....

[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Surely these laws cannot be nailed to His cross. Otherwise why would Paul tell us NOT to do them? Looks like they must be kept. Let's read some more....

Do not kill!
Do not murder!
Do not covet!
Do not lie!
Do not have respect of person!
Honor thy father and mother!

And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:
If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

So....does anyone have an insurance policy? Sounds like something that would be cover under it? Of course it does!

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

So do you think a court would consider this just?

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life.

Be grateful man's laws are not as harsh as God's. For I doubt most rapers (mischief) are put to death! But just imagine if they were. I bet we would see a lot less rape!

If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit. But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

So....if the owner of a beast KNOWS that his beast has gored before AND that beast gores someone to death and the beast was not tied up, then the owner would be put to death also? WOW!!!! I bet you would NEVER see a Pit Bull unleashed or not behind a fence ever again if this law was in place and enforced!

Sounds fair and just. Sound like laws to live by to me.

And there are those that think God gave us these laws just to show us that we cannot keep them? Did He really have to give us over 600 laws to prove that? Most can barely keep the 10 let alone 600!!!

NO!!!! God gave us these laws to live by! To give man order, fairness and justice so that man coulld live with one another!

Just a crazy idea to consider.....

.

Arnie Manitoba said:
These are maybe not the best examples for now Eccl , but it is implied in some of these verses that one of the purposes of the law is to identify sin, and we all sin (cannot keep the law)

Rom.7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

This is the purpose of God giving His laws to man. To show us what is RIGHT and what is WRONG!

Nowhere will you ever find that God gave man His laws JUST to prove to man that he cannot keep His laws perfectly!

Does that make sense? Do you give your children laws just to say "I Told you so!!!"? NO!!!! You give them laws of the house to obey so that they will not hurt themselves or others. You give them rules so that your house is run in order! You give them rules to teach them what is wrong and right.

Do you think God is any different with His children?

You do not give them rules just to show them they cannot keep them!!!

Duckybill · Apr 7, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
As a matter of fact the ONLY laws that are not enforced or observed in some way are God's sacrifice laws, which, by the way, are in fact the ONLY laws that were nailed to His cross!

It was the works of the Law that you preach that were nailed to the cross, not morals. It is still sin to murder, commit adultery, lie, etc.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9 [/sup]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 7, 2011

Duckybill said:
It was the works of the Law that you preach that were nailed to the cross, not morals. It is still sin to murder, commit adultery, lie, etc.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse;

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9 [/sup]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Agreed....it is still a sin to murder, lie commit, adultry....etc. But the works that Paul speaks of above are to a particular service, for according to the word of God we ALL will be judged by our works;

Rev.20
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

These are the works we must do..

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Tim.5
[24] Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
[25] Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Tit.2
[7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jam.2
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And these are the works we must NOT do...

[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The above is just a small list of the workings of Satan, which men are to avoid.

.

Duckybill · Apr 7, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
... we ALL will be judged by our works;

It's talking about good works, not the works of the Law, I.E. dietary, circumcision, etc.

Rach1370 · Apr 7, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
OK......So maybe I missed it! So just where in all of the above scriptures does PAUL say that God said, " The reason I am giving you these laws is to show you that you cannot keep them perfectly!"

If you can just point that out in the scriptures provided!

Please understand....I know that no one can keep God's laws perfectly...not even Job! My question is when did God say the REASON He gave us His Laws to to show us that!

Also..... Is that why He gave His laws to His angels? To show them that they too cannot keep them perfectly?

So just which scripture above says that God said man MUST keep all of His laws perfectly? Surely you can narrow it down to ONE!

If you are trying to find the exact words, you won't. Niether does Jesus exactly say to the disciples "they are going to kill me on the cross and in doing so I'll be taking all you sins on my shoulders". But just because we don't find the exact words doesn't mean the meaning isn't explicit in what is said.

It's not the law that is imperfect, it's the humans who can't follow it. The Bible tells us that if we could have followed the law perfectly then we could have achieved salvation ourselves. Of course we couldn't, and of course God knew this all along. He knew that Jesus would be necessary, even from the fall when He gave us the protoevangelion. So why give us a law He knew we couldn't keep? It's all about repentance. To be saved we need to repent, admit to God that we realise just how sinful and depraved we are. The law should help us do this...by the very fact that we can see how short we fall by it. Sadly many people don't come to repentace by it, but pride...pride that they are continuing to follow these laws. It's a form of religious self sufficiency that says "sure Jesus saves me, but I do....and that makes me a better person." No, the only...ONLY thing that makes us more than wretched is Jesus' saving grace and the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. It's by the Spirit that we love purely, think lovingly and become more Godly. It's by the Spirit that we avoid things like breaking the 10 commandments. It's not, cannot be through our own 'keeping of the laws'...that means that we are clinging to something that we may boast in...and we know what the bible says about that.

You cannot say "It's not essential to keep all the laws, God never said we must." In fact it's ridiculous! Just in modern, non religious comparison, how would it be if the laws that were made today were only to be kept if we the people felt like it? The police force would be useless, the justice system a laugh, and criminals would have a field day. A person could murder and say that that wasn't a law they wanted to keep, at least on that particular day. Laws are made to be kept...to be enforced. God knew that as sinful people we just couldn't do it, and so he sent Jesus to keep it perfectly and to take our places. That is the only way we get out of it...but now we are in Christ, we are no longer bound to it. If you insist on playing the 'law' game, then God will judge you according to it, and you'd better pray you keep them all...perfectly...just like Jesus.

the stranger · Apr 7, 2011

If you insist on playing the 'law' game, then God will judge you according to it, and you'd better pray you keep them all...perfectly...just like Jesus.

Agreed. Tell me Eccl., Do you keep the law with 100% perfection, even though the bible tells us over and over again that no one can or ever has, including our heroes of the OT.? Are you JESUS? The only man/God that was ever perfect here on earth. I would shake in my boats (if I had any) and look for the lightning coming down from heaven to strike me down if I were ever to say such things. I realize more and more everyday how imperfect I truly am.

I fully agree with the last post. It has always been about the heart.

God bless

jiggyfly · Apr 8, 2011

Is there any scripture that states God gave His law to the gentiles?

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 8, 2011

Rach said:
It's not the law that is imperfect, it's the humans who can't follow it. The Bible tells us that if we could have followed the law perfectly then we could have achieved salvation ourselves.

God knew that as sinful people we just couldn't do it, and so he sent Jesus to keep it perfectly and to take our places.

God word says that the LAW could not save man, but nowhere will you ever find where God said we must keep His laws perfectly.

And no.... you can not find these exact words, "...they are going to kill me on the cross and in doing so I'll be taking all you sins on my shoulders", but I can find where it states that Jesus will be killed on the cross and die for our sins.

But NOWHERE can you even implicitly find that God said, "I am giving you my laws to show that you cannot keep them." You cannot even come close to finding any statement like that in God's word.

Nor can you find where any of God's saints said anything close to it.

But what you will find is that because we have God's laws we know what is right and what is wrong;

Rom.3
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And we know that if it were not for God's laws we would not know what was right or what was wrong;

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

And we do know that Jesus told us to keep God's laws if we want eternal life;

Matt.19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But no place will ANYBODY ever find where God even came close to saying, "I am giving you these laws to prove that you cannot keep them!

It's not implied, suggested, inferred nor read bewteen ANY lines!

Can we keep them perfectly? Of course not! But that does not mean that is the reason God gave then to us.

What sense does that make? Do you give your children laws and rules just to say, "See.....I told you you would not be able to keep them!!!"

Or do you give then rules and regulation to keep them safe and to guide them? Is God any different with His children? Of course He is not!

So where did this doctrine come from if not from the word of God?

.

the stranger said:
Agreed. Tell me Eccl., Do you keep the law with 100% perfection, even though the bible tells us over and over again that no one can or ever has, including our heroes of the OT.? Are you JESUS? The only man/God that was ever perfect here on earth. I would shake in my boats (if I had any) and look for the lightning coming down from heaven to strike me down if I were ever to say such things. I realize more and more everyday how imperfect I truly am.

I fully agree with the last post. It has always been about the heart.

God bless

As I have ALWAYS said....NO. God NEVER said we must keep His laws perfectly. But He does tell us to keep them for eternal life;

Matt.19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Luke 18
[20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

John 14
[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Even your dear Paul tells us to keep God's laws;

1 Cor.6
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Now how can this be nailed to the cross if he is telling us NOT to do it?

.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 8, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Is there any scripture that states God gave His law to the gentiles?

A bunch!

Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Num.15
[29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Isa.56
[6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

And the strangers are.........? Not the nation of Israel!

God even tells us His laws will be for ALL nations during His rule here on earth;

Isa.66
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And just in case you are looking for one in the NT, here's one from our dear Paul. Notice who he is talking to...

Rom.3
[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

And what is sin? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

Now let's read who Paul said is under the law..

[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Paul tells us that, "...all the world may become guilty before God."

Now I'm sure you will be able to find a few Gentiles somewhere mixed in there with, "...all the world...:!

Here is yet another quote of Paul;

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Note....this is AFTER the death of Christ. The Christ that most say nailed His laws to His cross.

Now if that be the case, how is it possible to SIN if the laws have been nailed to His cross?

.

.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 8, 2011

1 John 1
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And what is sin?

" Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."
"All unrighteousness is sin:......"

1 John 2
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matt.5
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So.....are we to teach men to keep God's laws?

Paul did!

1 Cor.6
[18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

And do you think this is the only law Paul taught men?

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom.13
[7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
[8] Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Notice He is speaking to ROMANS........GENTILES!!!

.

.

the stranger · Apr 9, 2011

I don't have time right now to reply to much, but in this one part I will agree with you. We need to want to have a heart for God. If we sin, or perhaps in your view, intentionally disobey what Jesus taught as commandments, as a way to rebel against God (Christ), than we do have a problem, a heart problem. If we love God with all we got and love our neighbor as ourselves, all the other moral laws will fall into place under these. When we love (and this includes correction) and want to follow and to be like Jesus with all of our hearts, we will not want to make Jesus sad. We will want to follow His example and do as He commands. However, following His commands is not what gets us to heaven. We follow His commands by living by the Holy Spirit, and we have this by the blood of Jesus, in which gives us access to God the Father and to heaven above.

God bless

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 9, 2011

the stranger said:
However, following His commands is not what gets us to heaven.

Really? Then what is eternal life according to you?

Matt.19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And where is the tree of life or the gates of the city spoken below?

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Now that Christ has shed His blood (The shedding of Christ blood is what grace is) and died for our sins, keeping God's laws is the ONLY thing that will allow us entrance into His kingdom.

That is why Paul said the following....

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Christ already died ONCE for us. Now that we know this and have knowledge, if we continue to sin (trangress God's laws) Christ is NOT coming back to die for us again. There are no more sacrifices to be made; Christ's death did away with the animal sacrifice, so who is going to shed blood for you if you continue to sin? You are!

Deut.18
[19] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Let's stay on track also... The topic of this post is to provide scriptures stating, implying, inferring that God gave man His laws to show man that he cannot keep His laws.

As I have always said, nowhere does it God ever say man must keep HIs laws perfectly, but EVERYWHERE God tells man to keep them. From Gen. to the last chapter in the bible God tells man to keep HIs commandments.

NOWHERE does God EVER say, His laws were provided to show man he cannot keep them.

God provided His laws for order and not to throw it in our face and say, "I told you so!".

.

.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 9, 2011

Here's something to chew on.....

After ALL is said and done, and by ALL I mean the following....

Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

God will STILL have laws and perfect beings will STILL have to obey and keep His laws....

Rev.22
[3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Notice His SERVANTS shall SERVE Him! And what do servants do? The will of their master!
God will ALWAYS be God and He will ALWAYS have rules and laws that MUST be kept.

And at this time we will keep ALL of His laws perfectly because we will be able to.

So saying that God gave us His laws just to show that we cannot keep them perfectly can NOT be the reason He gave us HIs laws....

For even when EVERYTHING is perfect God will STILL have rules and laws and His PERFECT servants will STILL have to follow and keep ALL of the LAWS of God!

.

Just ONE verse please! Just ONE!!!!!!

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