Just ONE verse please! Just ONE!!!!!!

the stranger · Apr 9, 2011

the stranger, on 09 April 2011 - 12:29 AM, said:

However, following His commands is not what gets us to heaven.

Really? Then what is eternal life according to you?

Matt.19
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Can we take one more look at this passage as a whole?

Matthew 19:16-26 (Contemporary English Version)

A Rich Young Man

(Mark 10.17-31; Luke 18.18-30)
[sup]16[/sup]A man came to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?" [sup]17[/sup]Jesus said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good.

First, who here is the only one called good? Us humans can never be considered good, no matter how many commandments we obey. Thus, it is only through the blood of Christ that we are considered good.

If you want to have eternal life, you must obey his commandments." [sup]18[/sup]"Which ones?" the man asked.

Jesus answered, "Do not murder. Be faithful in marriage. Do not steal. Do not tell lies about others. [sup]19[/sup]Respect your father and mother. And love others as much as you love yourself." [sup]20[/sup]The young man said, "I have obeyed all of these. What else must I do?"

First question, how many of the commandments of God were told here to obey? The answer is six. Does that consist of all of the commandments?

On a side note, again, the last one mentioned as I have already shown is one of the two that all of the other commandments are under.

[sup]21[/sup]Jesus replied, "If you want to be perfect, go sell everything you own! Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and be my follower." [sup]22[/sup]When the young man heard this, he was sad, because he was very rich. [sup]23[/sup]Jesus said to his disciples, "It's terribly hard for rich people to get into the kingdom of heaven! [sup]24[/sup]In fact, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into God's kingdom."

"Go sell everything you own." Where is this found in the OT commandments, if not only under one heading, to love God with everything that we have? Again, all other laws are under this one.

This rich man thought that he already obeyed all of the commandments, right? So what was Jesus after? His heart? Yes, indeed. Again, the heart is always been what it is about.

We see here this man who believed he was a Godly man found himself to not be so Godly after all. What would we do in the same situation?

[sup]25[/sup]When the disciples heard this, they were greatly surprised and asked, "How can anyone ever be saved?" [sup]26[/sup]Jesus looked straight at them and said, "There are some things that people cannot do, but God can do anything."

So tell me one more time, my friend. How are we saved?

And where is the tree of life or the gates of the city spoken below?

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Now that Christ has shed His blood (The shedding of Christ blood is what grace is) and died for our sins, keeping God's laws is the ONLY thing that will allow us entrance into His kingdom.

That is why Paul said the following....

Heb.10
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Christ already died ONCE for us. Now that we know this and have knowledge, if we continue to sin (trangress God's laws) Christ is NOT coming back to die for us again. There are no more sacrifices to be made; Christ's death did away with the animal sacrifice, so who is going to shed blood for you if you continue to sin? You are!

1 John 1:8 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]8[/sup]If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].

FIRST, WE ALL HAVE SIN

1 John 5:16 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]16[/sup]If anyone sees his brother [believer] committing a sin that does not [lead to] death (the extinguishing of life), he will pray and [God] will give him life [yes, He will grant life to all those whose sin is not one leading to death]. There is a sin [that leads] to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

[sup]17[/sup]All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven].

SECOND, NOT ALL SIN LEADS TO DEATH

James 1:15 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]15[/sup]Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.

THIRDLY, IT IS FULL BLOWN SIN, OR COMPLETE UNWILLINGNESS TO REPENT, THAT LEADS TO DEATH IN THE END

ONE MORE TIME, BECAUSE WE COULD NEVER KEEP THE LAW< JESUS HAD TO DIE.

That does not mean we refute what is right and holy, but that we obey the law in a new way, by living through the Holy Spirit. It does not mean we will not sin, but it means the Spirit will lead us towards Gods will. We will not want to sin if we live by the Holy Spirit, but it does not mean that we will not. As you already know, having sin is disobeying Gods commandments, thus we all are guilty.

Let's stay on track also... The topic of this post is to provide scriptures stating, implying, inferring that God gave man His laws to show man that he cannot keep His laws.

As I have always said, nowhere does it God ever say man must keep HIs laws perfectly, but EVERYWHERE God tells man to keep them. From Gen. to the last chapter in the bible God tells man to keep HIs commandments.

NOWHERE does God EVER say, His laws were provided to show man he cannot keep them.

God provided His laws for order and not to throw it in our face and say, "I told you so!".

Scripture has already been given to this regard. Do you want me to re post scripture that has already been given?

[sup]8[/sup]And Cain said to his brother, [sup][b][/sup]Let us go out to the field. And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.[sup](B)

Was the commandment "thou shall not kill" given at this point? So why was God angry?

[/sup] [sup]11[/sup]And when he was about to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, I know that you are beautiful to behold.

[sup]12[/sup]So when the Egyptians see you, they will say, This is his wife; and they will kill me, but they will let you live.

[sup]13[/sup]Say, I beg of you, that you are [sup][c][/sup]my sister, so that it may go well with me for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.

[sup]14[/sup]And when Abram came into Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful.

[sup]15[/sup]The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into Pharaoh's house [harem].

[sup]16[/sup]And he treated Abram well for her sake; he acquired sheep, oxen, he-donkeys, menservants, maidservants, she-donkeys, and [sup][d][/sup]camels.

[sup]17[/sup]But the Lord scourged Pharaoh and his household with serious plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife.

[sup]18[/sup]And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?

[sup]19[/sup]Why did you say, She is my sister, so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife; take her and get away [from here]!

[sup]20[/sup]And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him, and they brought him on his way with his wife and all that he had.

Was the command given of yet as to not lie? NO.

Bottom line, as I have already stated, it has always been a matter of our heart for God, and even the gentiles were considered righteous of those that followed their

conscious. All who ever seeked the truth and acted according to that truth were always considered righteous, and the same happens today, as God will always review the truth to all who seek it. You are correct in the aspect that we should not do what we know is wrong, but that is still a matter of the heart. The moral laws still should be implied in our lives today, but this is done in a new way, through the Spirit, as His words and commands are written now in our hearts. The OT still has the moral principles that should help guide us.

God will STILL have laws and perfect beings will STILL have to obey and keep His laws....

Where does it say that in the passage that you gave?

Notice His SERVANTS shall SERVE Him! And what do servants do? The will of their master!
God will ALWAYS be God and He will ALWAYS have rules and laws that MUST be kept.

And at this time we will keep ALL of His laws perfectly because we will be able to.

So saying that God gave us His laws just to show that we cannot keep them perfectly can NOT be the reason He gave us HIs laws....

For even when EVERYTHING is perfect God will STILL have rules and laws and His PERFECT servants will STILL have to follow and keep ALL of the LAWS of God!

Yes, we are always to serve Him, like all of creation. All who are born of Him want to serve Him and only do what makes Him happy. This is far greater than any command could be. This is a matter of our hearts wanting to serve the One who gave so much, and continues to give. There will be no need for "laws" in the new heaven. What your implying the scripture here is saying I am not reading. However, I have read over and over that the law has been done away with, as now His words are written in our hearts, and no longer are we bound by the letter of the law. This has been shown to you over and over, and if you still cannot see this truth, I am afraid that only the Holy Spirit of God will be able to do this, my friend and brother.

God bless

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

the stranger said:
Scripture has already been given to this regard. Do you want me to re post scripture that has already been given?

Yes. Must have missed it!

Click to expand...

[sup]Was the commandment "thou shall not kill" given at this point? So why was God angry?
[/sup]Was the command given of yet as to not lie? NO.

Why do you think, just because it is not written that God did not give His laws to His children? Let's read what God told Cain.

"[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Why didn't Cain ask God, "What is sin?" Because Cain already knew what sin was. Do you not think that God didn't tell him?

Tell me, what was the sin that Adam commited?

ALL of God's laws were in effect from day one; lying, killing, adultry, coveting....ALL of them!

And do you think that Just because Jesus did NOT list all (10) commandments we only have to keep the six that he did mention? So what about idoltry? Jesus didn't tell the young man not to do that...so is it ok for us?

Click to expand...

There will be no need for "laws" in the new heaven.

Really? So when God said..."And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." You want us to believe He was talking about something else?

And just what does it mean to serve? Because that is what we will be doing in God's kingdom!

Click to expand...

However, I have read over and over that the law has been done away with,

[quote]God's word tells us only ONE law was nailed to His cross![/quote]

Duckybill · Apr 10, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
God's word tells us only ONE law was nailed to His cross!

Circumcision?

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [sup]3 [/sup]And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. [sup]4 [/sup]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

Duckybill said:
Circumcision?

Galatians 5:2-4 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. [sup]3 [/sup]And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. [sup]4 [/sup]You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul is NOT saying, Do not get circumcised! He is saying that becoming circumcised will not get you into God's kingdom alone!

If a murder gets circumcised will it help him get into God's kingdom?
If an adulterer gets circumcised will it help him get into God's kingdom?

Just as Paul said, "if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing."

.

Duckybill · Apr 10, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
Paul is NOT saying, Do not get circumcised! He is saying that becoming circumcised will not get you into God's kingdom alone!

If a murder gets circumcised will it help him get into God's kingdom?
If an adulterer gets circumcised will it help him get into God's kingdom?

Just as Paul said, "if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing."

You are perverting what Paul clearly said.

Romans 10:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

Duckybill said:
You are perverting what Paul clearly said.

Romans 10:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Oh.....so now that I have given you another way to look at the scriptures I am now perverting it!

Christ is the end of the law.....the law that was ADDED and only that one!

.

Duckybill · Apr 10, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
Oh.....so now that I have given you another way to look at the scriptures I am now perverting it!

Christ is the end of the law.....the law that was ADDED and only that one!

"Christ shall profit you NOTHING."

Clear enough?

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

Duckybill said:
"Christ shall profit you NOTHING."

Clear enough?

Do you know which law it was that was added? And since the scriptures does say a law was added that would mean Paul speaks of at least TWO laws in his writings.

So which law was nailed to the cross? The law that was added, or, the laws that the one law was added to?

Do you know?

.

Duckybill · Apr 10, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
Do you know which law it was that was added? And since the scriptures does say a law was added that would mean Paul speaks of at least TWO laws in his writings.

So which law was nailed to the cross? The law that was added, or, the laws that the one law was added to?

Do you know?

THE LAW is singular.

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

Duckybill said:
THE LAW is singular.

Paul speaks of TWO laws; the (1) law that was added, and the laws that the (1) law was added to.

Did you not know this? It's clearly written in God's word!

.

jiggyfly · Apr 10, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
Do you know which law it was that was added? And since the scriptures does say a law was added that would mean Paul speaks of at least TWO laws in his writings.

So which law was nailed to the cross? The law that was added, or, the laws that the one law was added to?

Do you know?

.

The law that was engraved in stone.

the stranger · Apr 10, 2011

[sup]

[/sup]

Scripture has already been given to this regard. Do you want me to re post scripture that has already been given?

Quote

Yes. Must have missed it!

[sup]

By Arnie:

1 Corinthians 15 56[/sup] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 3 [sup]20[/sup] Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Romans 7 4 the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

[sup]Romans 8 3[/sup] For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature

[sup]James 2 10[/sup] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[sup]Romans 7 7[/sup] What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” [sup]8[/sup] But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. [sup]9[/sup] Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [sup]10[/sup] I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [sup]11[/sup] For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

[sup]Galatians 3 [/sup][sup]22[/sup] But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. [sup]23[/sup] Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. [sup]24[/sup] So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[sup] [/sup] that we might be justified by faith. [sup]25[/sup] Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

[sup]Hebrews 7 11[/sup] If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood , for on the basis of it the law was given to the people, why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek,

[sup]Romans 5 20[/sup] The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

By Rach:

[19] Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. [20] Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[21] Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. [22] But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[23] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. [24] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [26] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
(Galatians 3:1-26 ESV)

[sup][/sup]

[sup]Was the commandment "thou shall not kill" given at this point? So why was God angry?
[/sup]Was the command given of yet as to not lie? NO.

Quote

Why do you think, just because it is not written that God did not give His laws to His children? Let's read what God told Cain.

"[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

Why didn't Cain ask God, "What is sin?" Because Cain already knew what sin was. Do you not think that God didn't tell him?

So God already told everybody everything about the law, (that actually was not given yet) but still felt the need to repeat it through Moses, and only to the Jews?

Tell me, what was the sin that Adam commited?

Not listening to the one thing God told him not to do. A desire in his heart for something more than the righteousness that comes from God. At this point of time, how many things did God tell Adam not to do?

ALL of God's laws were in effect from day one; lying, killing, adultry, coveting....ALL of them!

What do you mean by saying this? Was the law you are referring to the unwritten law that has always been in part in the heart, or are you saying the written law of Moses was already in effect, though Paul says it was not, and it was not in effect until it was given through Moses?

And do you think that Just because Jesus did NOT list all (10) commandments we only have to keep the six that he did mention? So what about idoltry? Jesus didn't tell the young man not to do that...so is it ok for us?

That is my whole point. It is not about the written law, though it is good, but it is about what is in our hearts. Do we have a heart for God? If so, we are not going to want to commit idoltry? Can you remember every law in the bible? NO? Than how can you even try to keep them all? Oh wait, that's right. by living through the Holy Spirit.

Really? So when God said..."And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever." You want us to believe He was talking about something else?

And just what does it mean to serve? Because that is what we will be doing in God's kingdom!

First, serving God because we want to is different from following a set of rules. Do you have kids? If so, if you told them not to cross the street, but one day they did, because you fell down and became hurt, as so they wanted to get you help, did they disobey your rules?

Second, tell me exactly what you think the scripture you wrote down means.

God bless you my friend

Just another question concerning the recent postings. If there were two laws, which were there, and why does the NT often resort to the ENTIRE OT as regarding the law if there were two sets of laws?

Thanks

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 10, 2011

the stranger said:
[sup]

1 Corinthians 15 56[/sup] The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Click to expand...

[sup]

Click to expand...

How did you get, "The reason I am giving you my laws to show that you cannot keep them!", from the above?

[/sup]

Romans 3 [sup]20[/sup] Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Click to expand...

[sup]How did you get, "The reason I am giving you my laws to show that you cannot keep them!", from the above?[/sup]

Romans 7 4 the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
[sup]Romans 8 3[/sup] For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature
[sup]James 2 10[/sup] For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
[sup]Romans 7 7[/sup] What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” [sup]8[/sup] But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. [sup]9[/sup] Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. [sup]10[/sup] I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. [sup]11[/sup] For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.
[sup]Galatians 3 [/sup][sup]22[/sup] But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. [sup]23[/sup] Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. [sup]24[/sup] So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[sup] [/sup]that we might be justified by faith. [sup]25[/sup] Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
[sup]Hebrews 7 [/sup]If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood , for on the basis of it the law was given to the people, why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek,

Click to expand...

[sup]How did you get, "The reason I am giving you my laws to show that you cannot keep them!", from ANY of the above?[/sup]

So God already told everybody everything about the law, (that actually was not given yet) but still felt the need to repeat it through Moses, and only to the Jews?

Click to expand...

YES! Is that too hard to understand? Do you think Cain did NOT know it was wrong to kill his brother? And how do you think he received this knowledge? It was NOT automatically programed when he was born. Someone had to TEACH him what was right and what was wrong. And that would have been his parents.

How did Able know what to sacrifice to the Lord? He learned it from his parents!

At this point of time, how many things did God tell Adam not to do?

Click to expand...

Are you for real? EVERYTHING!

Just another question concerning the recent postings. If there were two laws, which were there, and why does the NT often resort to the ENTIRE OT as regarding the law if there were two sets of laws?

Click to expand...

Let me ask you...How can Paul say that God's laws were Holy and just, teach others (Gentiles) to keep them, keep them himself and yet say those SAME laws are no longer to be observed?

Now while you try to figure that out here is the answer to your question above;

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.” Gal 3:19

.

the stranger · Apr 10, 2011

Thank you again for your reply Eccl.

[sup][/sup][sup] [/sup]

[sup] How did you get, "The reason I am giving you my laws to show that you cannot keep them!", from ANY of the above?[/sup]

Let me try just one more time and the hopes that I can make it understandable, even if we do not agree.

Galatians 3:19 (New International Version, ©2011)
[sup]19[/sup] Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

A better understanding translation:

Galatians 3:19 (The Message)
[sup]18-20[/sup]What is the point, then, of the law, the attached addendum? It was a thoughtful addition to the original covenant promises made to Abraham. The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until Christ (the descendant) came, inheriting the promises and distributing them to us. Obviously this law was not a firsthand encounter with God. It was arranged by angelic messengers through a middleman, Moses. But if there is a middleman as there was at Sinai, then the people are not dealing directly with God, are they? But the original promise is the direct blessing of God, received by faith.

Galatians 3:19 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]19[/sup]What is the use of the Law? It was given later to show that we sin. But it was only supposed to last until the coming of that descendant [sup][a][/sup] who was given the promise. In fact, angels gave the Law to Moses, and he gave it to the people.

Galatians 3:19 (New Living Translation)
[sup]19[/sup] Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

I don't think that I can cut that any more clear. The law was given to show people their sins, as well as to show them a more holy walk to walk until Christ Jesus came into the picture. You are right in saying that it was not given JUST to show that we have sin, but also so we could live a better and more holy life until Jesus. After all, the Jews was supposed to be the light onto the entire world!

Romans 5:12-14 (New Living Translation)

Adam and Christ Contrasted
[sup]12[/sup] When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. [sup]13[/sup] Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. [sup]14[/sup] Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.

While looking around a drop more I came across this: You make it sound as if you have a hard time believing others cannot accept God gave the law before God gave it to Moses! The trouble is, this verse makes it very very clear that the law was not given until after Moses, thus sin was not counted against them like it was after the law was given. Am I reading this wrong, my brother?

John 7:21-23 (New Living Translation)
[sup]21[/sup] Jesus replied, “I did one miracle on the Sabbath, and you were amazed. [sup]22[/sup] But you work on the Sabbath, too, when you obey Moses’ law of circumcision. (Actually, this tradition of circumcision began with the patriarchs, long before the law of Moses.) [sup]23[/sup] For if the correct time for circumcising your son falls on the Sabbath, you go ahead and do it so as not to break the law of Moses. So why should you be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath?

I also found this one quite interesting. The law of the OT made it impossible to follow the law as it was told or written down. They by law sometimes had to circumcise on the Sabbath which in and of it's self was breaking the law. So tell me, did God really ever intend for us to follow the law to a tee or to have a heart for Him?

Jeremiah 26 (New Living Translation)

Jeremiah 26

Jeremiah’s Escape from Death
[sup]1[/sup] This message came to Jeremiah from the Lord early in the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah,[sup][a][/sup] king of Judah. [sup]2[/sup] “This is what the Lord says: Stand in the courtyard in front of the Temple of the Lord, and make an announcement to the people who have come there to worship from all over Judah. Give them my entire message; include every word. [sup]3[/sup] Perhaps they will listen and turn from their evil ways. Then I will change my mind about the disaster I am ready to pour out on them because of their sins. [sup]4[/sup] “Say to them, ‘This is what the Lord says: If you will not listen to me and obey my word I have given you, [sup]5[/sup] and if you will not listen to my servants, the prophets—for I sent them again and again to warn you, but you would not listen to them—[sup]6[/sup] then I will destroy this Temple as I destroyed Shiloh, the place where the Tabernacle was located. And I will make Jerusalem an object of cursing in every nation on earth.’”

[sup]7[/sup] The priests, the prophets, and all the people listened to Jeremiah as he spoke in front of the Lord’s Temple. [sup]8[/sup] But when Jeremiah had finished his message, saying everything the Lord had told him to say, the priests and prophets and all the people at the Temple mobbed him. “Kill him!” they shouted. [sup]9[/sup] “What right do you have to prophesy in the Lord’s name that this Temple will be destroyed like Shiloh? What do you mean, saying that Jerusalem will be destroyed and left with no inhabitants?” And all the people threatened him as he stood in front of the Temple.

[sup]10[/sup] When the officials of Judah heard what was happening, they rushed over from the palace and sat down at the New Gate of the Temple to hold court. [sup]11[/sup] The priests and prophets presented their accusations to the officials and the people. “This man should die!” they said. “You have heard with your own ears what a traitor he is, for he has prophesied against this city.”

[sup]12[/sup] Then Jeremiah spoke to the officials and the people in his own defense. “The Lord sent me to prophesy against this Temple and this city,” he said. “The Lord[sup]13[/sup] But if you stop your sinning and begin to obey the Lord your God, he will change his mind about this disaster that he has announced against you. [sup]14[/sup] As for me, I am in your hands—do with me as you think best. [sup]15[/sup] But if you kill me, rest assured that you will be killing an innocent man! The responsibility for such a deed will lie on you, on this city, and on every person living in it. For it is absolutely true that the Lord sent me to speak every word you have heard.” gave me every word that I have spoken.

I just thought this one kind of showed what the law had always been about and why some still do not accept Jesus Christ. Bottom line, these people wanted to do their own thing, not what was right and just in the Lords eyes. It has always been a heart issue more than following the law to a tee issue.

Romans 10:4 (New Living Translation)
[sup]4[/sup] For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given.[sup][a][/sup] As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

with the following:

Galatians 3:23-24 (New Living Translation)

God’s Children through Faith
[sup]23[/sup] Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. [sup]24[/sup] Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith.

Galatians 4:4-7 (New Living Translation)
[sup]4[/sup] But when the right time came, God sent his Son, born of a woman, subject to the law. [sup]5[/sup] God sent him to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law, so that he could adopt us as his very own children.[sup][a][/sup] [sup]6[/sup] And because we[sup][b][/sup] are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father.”[sup][c][/sup] [sup]7[/sup] Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child.[sup][d][/sup] And since you are his child, God has made you his heir.

Acts 13:39 (New Living Translation)
[sup]39[/sup] Everyone who believes in him is declared right with God—something the law of Moses could never do.

Bottom line, my friend, the law was given for two reasons.

(1) To help us live holy lives for the benefit of ourselves and for the gentile nations, as the Jews was the light of the world (or that was the purpose anyway)

(2) To show us our flaws and imperfections so as we would know how sinful we really were comparing to the holiness of god, as so we could see Jesus for who He really was when He came to take away our sins and to make us sons of the living God, something that the law could never do.

One good site to go to for a quick over view would be

http://www.christmycovenant.com/content/df1/df_lib1/why_the_law.html

Romans 5:20 (New Living Translation)
[sup]20[/sup] God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.

Romans 3:19 (New Living Translation)
[sup]19[/sup] Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.

1 John 3:18-23 (New Living Translation)
[sup]18[/sup] Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions. [sup]19[/sup] Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God. [sup]20[/sup] Even if we feel guilty, God is greater than our feelings, and he knows everything.

[sup]21[/sup] Dear friends, if we don’t feel guilty, we can come to God with bold confidence. [sup]22[/sup] And we will receive from him whatever we ask because we obey him and do the things that please him.

[sup]23[/sup] And this is his commandment: We must believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as he commanded us.

I do hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion my friend and brother.

YES! Is that too hard to understand? Do you think Cain did NOT know it was wrong to kill his brother? And how do you think he received this knowledge? It was NOT automatically programed when he was born. Someone had to TEACH him what was right and what was wrong. And that would have been his parents.

How did Able know what to sacrifice to the Lord? He learned it from his parents!

So you believe everything we know regarding right from wrong has to come from our parents, or in Adam's case, God?

Romans 2:12-16 (The Message)
[sup]12-13[/sup]If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God.

[sup]14-16[/sup]When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences.

So is Gods truth created in us or is Paul telling us a lie?

I will finish the last question in a while. Got to go for right now!

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 11, 2011

the stranger said:
Thank you again for your reply Eccl.

While looking around a drop more I came across this: You make it sound as if you have a hard time believing others cannot accept God gave the law before God gave it to Moses! The trouble is, this verse makes it very very clear that the law was not given until after Moses, thus sin was not counted against them like it was after the law was given. Am I reading this wrong, my brother?

Let's take one question at a time.

Let's look closely as the scriptures you provided;

Rom.5
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So what is God's definition of sin? He only gives us ONE in the entire bible.

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Since we know Adem sinned, then we know he broke one of God's laws. YES! A law that was here BEFORE those that were written down and given to Moses. Readers need to understand, WHENEVER God said "Do this!", or "Do not do this!", from that moment it is a LAW! It does NOT have to be written down. We know this is a FACT because we know from scriptures that Adam sinned and broke God's law.

So what LAW did Adam break?

Gen.2
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God commanded Adam, "...thou shalt not eat..." Adam eat, thus breaking the commandment/law of God! Now back to Rom.5

[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Again....what is sin? It is breaking God's laws. So sin, (the breaking of God's laws), was in the world BEFORE the law!

Next; Sin (the breaking of God's laws) is NOT done away with when there is no law!

So God tells us there is still sin (the breaking of His Laws) even when there is no law!

Now my questions are these;

How did the people know what God's laws were BEFORE God spoke them to Moses?
What was the law that was in the world BEFORE "the law"?
How can there still be sin (the breaking of God's laws) when the law was done away with?

Back to Rom.5
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,

Adam is the ONLY one God told not to eat of the fruit (And please do not tell me you really think it was an actual fruit). God gave that commandment to no other. We know this because even though EVE was the one that first listened to Satan, it was Adam that sinned, because God did not command Eve not to eat, only Adam.

So death did reigned from Adam to Moses because of sin, but it was NOT the law that Adam broke(sin), it was the laws that God passed down from Adam on. Let's prove this;

Gen.4
[2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
[3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Now some how Able and Cain knew that God required an offereing. Now where did they receive this knowledge? Either they got it from their parents or from God. If it was from their parents, that would mean God would have had to tell Adam and Eve, at some point, an offering will be required. And guess what it became the moment the instructions were given?

A LAW!

Now let's move on....

[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

So we have SIN (the act of breaking God's law) spoken of again BEFORE any laws were given to Moses.

Now do you think God just left Cain without any understanding of what He meant by SIN? If Cain did not know what God meant by sin, do you not think he did not ask? Readers...please understand something...every last conversation spoken by God to His children was NOT written down by Moses.

So did Cain sin?

[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

And if this was not a sin then why did the following happen next?

[11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
[12] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

If Cain did not sin why did God punish him?

Let's look at another...

Josh. 24 [2] And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

Notice when they served ‘other gods’. It was on the ‘other side of the flood’!

So at some point God revelaed to the people that serving 'other gods' was wrong and yet they did.

So.....were God's laws around in some form BEFORE they were written and given to Moses?

The scriptures does support it!

.

.

the stranger · Apr 11, 2011

Thank you Eccl for your long thought out post.

So what is God's definition of sin? He only gives us ONE in the entire bible.

1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 5:17 (New King James Version)
[sup]17[/sup] All unrighteousness is sin

1 John 3:9 (New King James Version)
[sup]9[/sup] Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

======================================================

John 15:22 (Amplified Bible)
[sup]22[/sup]If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin [would be blameless]; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

I agree with much of what you said. If God tells us not to do something, and we do it, we sin. Truth be told, since the sin of Adam, we are all born with sin, that is, a sinful heart, wanting to rebel and sin against God.

All unrighteousness is sin, something we can never be completely rid of in this body, correct?

What do you think it means when the word says that Jesus fulfilled the law?

How about when it says that Jesus took all of our sins away (or covered them with His blood) (the breaking of the law, or all unrighteousness?)

How did things change when God sent His Holy Spirit to indwell in all who believe in Him?

How did the people know what God's laws were BEFORE God spoke them to Moses?
What was the law that was in the world BEFORE "the law"?
How can there still be sin (the breaking of God's laws) when the law was done away with?

(1) you are right, many things were passed down by word of mouth. But do you remember everything that you were ever told? Have you ever made a decision, right or wrong, with out being told before hand but knowing before hand? Do you think it would have been OK if Adam killed his wife? Of course not, but did God ever tell Adam not to? Point being, we all are created with a heart that knows right from wrong, as the verse in my last post makes very very clear, and beyond this, we are not guilty of sin we do with out knowing it, but only sin we commit knowing it.

(2) Gods commands and our built on knowledge of right and wrong. Do you believe this? Do you know right from wrong at times with out knowing a scripture to back up what you believe?

(3) Christ fulfills the law. If we live by the Holy Spirit, we are no longer under the law. Do you believe that God Himself, living inside of us, will lead us to sin, or to displease Himself? You see, we now have something they did not have before, Jesus living in us and directing our every move, though we still rebell, thus the covering of our sins with the blood of Jesus. Do you believe believers want to sin, or go against Christ because we are no longer under the written law? Remember, it is the written law we are free from. Now, His will and commands (laws) are written in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Do you believe this? It is when we live apart from the Holy Spirit that we are under the law and will pay a high price because no human can or ever will be able to keep the law.

Sin is rejecting Jesus Christ and His ways. Even Christians do this at times. That is why scripture tells us that the only sin that will not (and cannot) be forgiven is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit until we die. If we are Gods friends, will God judge us by the written law, when He is our King, living inside of us and directing our every move?

One other point might be to remember that the "law" was broken by many, including David when he got food from the priest to feed his men, but this was never one time accounted against him or his heart for God. I can show you many times this sort of thing happened, and as I have already shown, the law in and of it's self was impossible to keep, as it made it impossible to keep one law without breaking another.

So.....were God's laws around in some form BEFORE they were written and given to Moses?

The scriptures does support it!

In the context of disobeying Christ, yes.

Do you believe if all the people, all of us and in the NT and OT were to always have a heart fully dedicated to Christ, and likewise our minds, souls and actions, that the "law" would have ever needed to be? Again, it is about being in obedience to the one who lives in us. The good news is, where we fail greatly and often, the blood of Jesus is there, as it has already washed away our sins.

The only real question is, have we all accepted this forgiveness and washing? If yes, have we gone back to doing things our own way and living a life one more time in constant sin and rebellion? If so, let us pray together, that whoever this statement may concern, they too can have a repentant heart for God, a heart made whole once again.

God bless you brother, and have a good one. B)

dan p · Apr 13, 2011

Eccl.12:13 said:
But can ANYBODY quote just ONE scripture were God has EVER said the reason He gave us His laws is to show us that we cannot keep them perfectly?

What sense does that make?
Did He give His angels His laws to show them the samething? After all....they broke His laws too!

Along with that, can anybody quote where God tells us that we MUST keep His laws perfectly.

Hi Eccl , and " did he give His angels His Laws " and where is that found ??
and Moses afterward
#1 , For starters , the " book of the Covenant " was given to Israel !

#2 , YOU do not have a verse to show that the Law of Moses or the 10 commandments WERE ever given to Gentiles !

#3 , Eph 2:12 -15 prove that God did not begin dealing with Gentiles UNTIL after the " THE Law of commandments and Ordinances and the Vail had been broken down ( verse 14 ) had been abloished .

#4 , The New Man of Eph 2:15 , has nothing to do with the Old Covenant .!

If you only want proof from the OT , why do you quote Paul , but we all know why you do not want Paul , Paul shows that since Faith has come , all Jews do not need Scoolmaster Training wheels anymore ,
Gal 3:25 .

In Johusa 8:34 , and Moses , afterward he read ALL the words of the Law , the blessing and cursing , accordning to all that is written in the Book of the Law and where is that in the 10 commanments . You can not
just cherry pick what you want to observe , in the Law of Moses .

We , know that Israel could NOT keep the Law of Moses , because Jehovah married Israel and then Divorced Israel in Jer 3:8 and the Divorce is based on Deut 24:1 .

There is good reason why Law keepers do not like Paul and it is in Titus 1:10-11 , For there are many unruly and vain takers and deceivers , speacially they of the Circumcision .

And verse 11 says , " whose mouths must be stooped , who subvert whole houses , teaching things which they ought not , for filthy lucre's sake , dan p

Eccl.12:13 · Apr 21, 2011

the stranger said:
Galatians 3:19 (New International Version, ©2011)
[sup]19[/sup] Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions

Galatians 3:19 (The Message)
The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until Christ (the descendant) came,

Galatians 3:19 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]19[/sup]What is the use of the Law? It was given later to show that we sin.

Galatians 3:19 (New Living Translation)
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins.

Now I understand...... You are using too many translations and they ALL are saying something different.

.

the stranger · Apr 21, 2011

There is good news to all of this my friend. Simply rest your mouse on the name of the book, chapter and verse, and it will direct you to the ESV translation at all times, thus by doing this, the many translations will confuse you no more.

Have a blessed one Eccl.

Just ONE verse please! Just ONE!!!!!!

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