The Only Problem With The Trinity

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theefaith

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Well, then I am happy that Jesus is my judge and not you.....o_O

Those whom Christ describes at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-23) are absolutely shocked at his rejection because they honestly think that their "Christianity" is genuine.....they appeal, citing all the things they did "in his name" and yet what is his response? "I NEVER KNEW YOU, GET AWAY FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS". Wow! imagine being on the receiving end of that, when you expected the opposite?

As Paul said...."So let the one who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." ( 1 Corinthians 10:12)
It ain't over till it's over....."as ye judge, so shall ye be judged"....be careful.

Jane, is baptism required?
How do we put in Christ?
 

theefaith

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Please show me where it ever calls Jesus "the eternal son" anywhere in scripture?

There is only one entity in scripture that qualifies as "eternal" (literally meaning "no beginning or end") and that is the eternal Father.

Jesus is the "created" Son of God.....who did have a beginning.
Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus " “...the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

"Beginning" is the Greek "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." (Strongs Concordance)

Colossians 1:15 calls the Son...."the firstborn of all creation"...nowhere is the son ever said to be eternal.

He is the servant of his Father. (Acts 3:13, 26) How can God be his own servant?

You’re confusing the two natures in Christ divine nature is eternally begotten of the father his human nature comes from Mary immaculate

Christ is eternal Heb 13:8 and 1st born
Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mother of our savior
 

theefaith

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And that has what authority for me? I reject the trinity outright, so why quote what not relevant to any discussion with me?
Please use the scriptures as I do not regard anything else as equal to them.


And where are the scriptures again....? Please provide the scriptural basis for your beliefs.


Oh dear, what an odd analogy :confused:.....God created his "firstborn" as a spirit being...made of the same substance as himself. (John 4:24) All spirit beings who dwell in heaven are spirit creatures. The spirit creature who became the human Jesus, was not begotten at his human birth, but at his creation "in the beginning".

There is no way to argue the trinity scripturally.....even the RCC who formulated the doctrine admits that it is not Biblical in origin.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
So if the Bible does not teach it, and the apostles did not teach it...where do you believe it came from?

Christ that’s where
Not scripture alone but scripture and tradition
And it does not matter when it was done as long it is according to the authority of Christ thru his church of the apostles
It is included in the sacred deposit of faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

scripture and tradition
 

amadeus

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What is the point in a person trying to explain something they do not understand? When it leads to pointing fingers and saying your not a Christian because you do not believe this way that I believe.

Have tired to explain it to my best ability when it comes to God, God's Spirit, God's Word, Father, God's Spirit, The Son of God/ Son of Man/ Jesus Christ the Lord using in what the bible itself explains about them.


Found in Post 219: The Only Problem With The Trinity
You are doing fine Matthew. For many just expressing doubt about a trinity is an attack against a sacred cow.

The trinity has not always been there even as an option for people. Some pulled it out of their Bibles and described it centuries perhaps before Luther nailed up his theses, but while trinitarian supporters may show support for their beliefs, they cannot make it so clear that no one could possibly misunderstand it. Only God could do that!

Not even Luther with all of his doubts denied that sacred cow or other sacred cows held by the formal church of the moment.

Not many are will to go to that lowest room with nothing in their mind or heart already decided about God and the things of God. Why not? If we are right about something, would not God reinforce it? If we are wrong, would we not want God to correct us?

Do we trust what we think we believe about God enough to allow it to be put to any test? Not even in most [or all?] of the church groups today are people allowed to do that. They set in place their established rules, which often means no one can ask any questions unless approved by the pastor or the priest or the elders in advance.

Getting advance permission to discuss questions like, trinity or not, is in most places a very unlikely thing indeed. They have decided they already know it wihout doubt and there is no room for discussion. Was that not what the Pharisees for the most part were doing when Jesus was walking around the land of Israel 2000 years ago? They were the experts on the scripture and God... or so they believed! They had it right... or so they believed.

Who is right today? God alone! Who knows what God knows? Not me!
 
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Waiting on him

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So it was "the Word" who "became flesh"...not THE God. (ho theos) And we also have to ask..."in the beginning of what"?...since the eternal God had no beginning, how was the Word "in the beginning with God"....if he was God?

my answer to this would be the world framed at Calvary.
 

Aunty Jane

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my answer to this would be the world framed at Calvary.
I would like you to flesh that out for me because I like to have specifics to address.
Vague references like this tell me nothing really….so what is “the world framed at Calvary”?
 

Waiting on him

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I would like you to flesh that out for me because I like to have specifics to address.
Vague references like this tell me nothing really….so what is “the world framed at Calvary”?
The creation of God. Those that are in Christ are a new creature.
 

Aunty Jane

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Jane, is baptism required?
Of course. But infant baptism is invalid because baptism requires a heart felt dedication to God through Christ. It also requires full immersion as Jesus and John the Baptist demonstrated. It has great significance.

There is no proxy arrangement. One has to choose to become a disciple of Christ first, and then their baptism means something. An infant cannot choose and no one can choose for them. Up to the age of accountability, children are counted in with their believing parents.

How do we put in Christ?
Like we are told to "put on the new personality", (Ephesians 4:22, 24) so Christians are to 'wear' Jesus like a garment. They strive to imitate his qualities and actions to such an extent that they become a reflection—even if imperfect—of their Master. (1 Thessalonians 1:6)

You’re confusing the two natures in Christ divine nature is eternally begotten of the father his human nature comes from Mary immaculate
Oh please.....there is no such Mary Immaculate. She was a sinful human like any other offspring of Adam. (Romans 5:12) There is no exception for Mary.
When Jesus was presented at the Temple, Mary and Joseph made sin offerings for themselves according to the Law. (Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:8)

Christ is eternal Heb 13:8 and 1st born
Hebrews 13:8 says....."Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." What is this saying? Was Jesus in existence before he was conceived in Mary's womb?
Actually, the child who became the man Jesus Christ, came into existence at his conception...an act of God's Spirit.
Up until that time, there was no Jesus, and he did not become the "Christ" (anointed one) until the age of 30 when he was baptized.

If Paul is saying that Jesus is like his Father, (unchangeable) then he will be so forever. "Forever" does not mean "eternal"...it means that something that comes into existence can last indefinitely. That is what God's first purpose was for mankind. To bring humans into existence and then to ensure that they never died....living forever, right here on this earth. No mention was ever made of going to heaven. (or hell)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Mother of our savior
Yes...but not "the mother of God". Mary has no such status in scripture...in fact very little is written about her.

Not scripture alone but scripture and tradition
And it does not matter when it was done as long it is according to the authority of Christ thru his church of the apostles
It is included in the sacred deposit of faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

scripture and tradition
Isn't that where the Pharisees went wrong? They too substituted tradition for the word of God and Jesus did not have a good word to say about them.
Matthew 15:7-9...
"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying:

8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”


No tradition of men overrides the words of God in the sacred scriptures.
Your traditions carry no weight with anyone but your fellow Catholics.
There is "One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism"...but I certainly can't see that its the Catholic faith. Like Judaism, there is way too much deviation away from the teachings of the Master.

No church has been corrupted so thoroughly, over such a long period of time, but the judge is coming soon and everything will be put right.
Bring it on....
 

Curtis

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Jesus is everywhere two or more gather in His name. The only way this is possible is for Jesus to be God the Son, and He is omnipresent. Matthew 18:20

Paul said it’s a mystery that Jesus dwells IN.us, and once again, that means He’s omnipresent, and is divinity. Colossians 1:27

Jesus dwells in our hearts when we have faith in Him Ephesians 3:17. Omnipresence required.


Maranatha
 

Aunty Jane

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Jesus is everywhere two or more gather in His name. The only way this is possible is for Jesus to be God the Son, and He is omnipresent. Matthew 18:20

Paul said it’s a mystery that Jesus dwells IN.us, and once again, that means He’s omnipresent, and is divinity. Colossians 1:27

Jesus dwells in our hearts when we have faith in Him Ephesians 3:17. Omnipresence required.

I cannot find a single reference to God being "omnipresent"....I can see his "omniscience" (he is all knowing) and I can see his omnipotence, (he is all-powerful) but as to him being everywhere all at once......no.

God has a dwelling place. He is a singular entity, (Deuteronomy 6:4) not a set of conjoined triplets.

Remember the Lord's Prayer? Where did Jesus locate the Father that he was praying to? Wasn't it in heaven?

2 Chronicles 6:21...
"Listen to the pleadings of Your servant and of Your people Israel when they pray toward this place; hear from Your dwelling place, from heaven; hear and forgive."
1 Kings 8:39...

"then hear in heaven, Your dwelling place, and forgive and act, and give to each in accordance with all his ways, whose heart You know—for You alone know the hearts of all mankind".

An all-knowing (omniscient) God does not need to be everywhere. He can be in heaven and see all and know all.

Hebrews 4:13...
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer."
 

Curtis

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I cannot find a single reference to God being "omnipresent"....I can see his "omniscience" (he is all knowing) and I can see his omnipotence, (he is all-powerful) but as to him being everywhere all at once......no.

God has a dwelling place. He is a singular entity, (Deuteronomy 6:4) not a set of conjoined triplets.

Remember the Lord's Prayer? Where did Jesus locate the Father that he was praying to? Wasn't it in heaven?

2 Chronicles 6:21...
"Listen to the pleadings of Your servant and of Your people Israel when they pray toward this place; hear from Your dwelling place, from heaven; hear and forgive."
1 Kings 8:39...

"then hear in heaven, Your dwelling place, and forgive and act, and give to each in accordance with all his ways, whose heart You know—for You alone know the hearts of all mankind".

An all-knowing (omniscient) God does not need to be everywhere. He can be in heaven and see all and know all.

Hebrews 4:13...
"And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer."
Explain how Jesus is omnipresent, then.

I’ll wait.
 

Aunty Jane

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Explain how Jesus is omnipresent, then.

I’ll wait.
You'll be waiting a while....he never said he was omnipresent. Jesus is not God.
His Father is omniscient and knows all, so because the Son is at his right hand.....whatever the Father knows, he instructs his Son...and he instructs his angels when he needs them to act.
 

Aunty Jane

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Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
LOL....it doesn't mean physically. He is "with" his worshippers always, but he does not live in their pockets. He is observing them wherever they are and even death cannot separate us from Him. (Romans 8:38-39)
 

Taken

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Christ that’s where
Not scripture alone but scripture and tradition
And it does not matter when it was done as long it is according to the authority of Christ thru his church of the apostles
It is included in the sacred deposit of faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

scripture and tradition

Mark 7
[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 

Taken

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You'll be waiting a while....he never said he was omnipresent. Jesus is not God.

One thing for you to not believe that or understand that...
Another thing to preach that...
Dangerous ground.

God teaches mankind, according to what is already familiar to mankind.

Men always begin as "sons", with the expectation a "son", will be revealed to be "a father".

Spiritually...It's a mysterious God conundrum...
How is one a Father, without having first been a Son?
How does an "eternal Father", not having a beginning, "REPRODUCE", a Son, "in his likeness"....meaning "also" not having a beginning?

God IS Eternal, without a beginning.
What God "sends forth OUT FROM HIM", is ALSO Eternal, "without a Beginning".

All "human earthly men", HAVE a beginning and AN ending.

Gods WORD, is in God, is God, without beginning, whether or not God sends His Word forth out from Him, or When God sends His Word forth out from Him.

Gods WORD...God named...JESUS.
Gods POWER, Gods SEED, Gods WISDOM...God named...CHRIST.

It matters not...WHEN you revealed yourself on this forum, your presence, your words and a name to call you..."your words and your name...existed Before you made your presence on this forum."

Gods Word was revealed Existing...Before mankind was "created" and "made".
Gods Power was revealed Existing...Before mankind was "created" and "made".
The "NAME" God gave "His Word", "His Power"....was KEPT SECRET from mankind...
"UNTIL"...God Himself decided to "Reveal" to mankind...What, mankind could (according to God)...call Gods Word and Gods Power and Gods Wisdom and Gods Seed and Gods Life.

Gods Word...IS God.

John 1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.

In the beginning was God, and God was with the Word, and God was the Word.

The "Beginning"...IS expressly "the beginning" of Gods Creation and Making...
Not the "Beginning of Gods existance".

God did not "REPRODUCE" a "Son"...
God "SENT" His Word forth OUT FROM HIM, and said...CALL HIS WORD...Gods Son.

Gen 1:3
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Judg 13:
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Deut. 29:
[29] The secret things belong unto the LORD our God...
BUT
those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever...

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

A Paramount revelation...
HOW, in what manner, and WHEN in what timeframe God reveals knowledge and understanding to His created and made man-KIND of thing....
IS Purposed...BY, OF, THROUGH God Himself.


Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself...

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Curtis

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Who is Jesus?


Jesus is the Son born of a virgin, who is Immanuel - meaning God with us (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23) who is the mighty God and everlasting Father. (Isaiah 9:6)


He is creator of the world, and of everything that was made in the beginning in Genesis 1.

(John 1:1,10,14 and Colossians 1:16-17)


To leave heaven and come to earth as a man, He voluntarily left the form of God that He had by His nature, and emptied Himself, setting aside all use of His divine power, and took the form of a humble servant. (Philippians 2:6-7)


Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but EMPTIED himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.


After He left Gods form to take mans form, Yahweh became the Father of Jesus when He made a body for Him to be born in.

(Hebrews 10:5)


Mary is the woman chosen by God to birth the body Yahweh made for God the word.


Since He had set aside all use of His divine power to take the form of a man (Philippians 2:6-7) Jesus didn’t start His ministry of healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons, until He received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. (Matthew 3:17)


He thereafter did His miracles by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, that Father Yahweh anointed Him with. (Acts 10:38)


As a humble servant and man on earth, the Father was greater in status than He, (John 14:28)— yet Jesus Is equal in nature to the Father, so He and the Father are one, (John 10:30) and He who has seen Him has seen the Father (John 14:9).


His purpose for coming to earth as a man, was to give His life a ransom for many.

(Mark 10:45)


He died physically on a cross, the sinless one for sinners, and took our place.


While His physical body was in a tomb on the surface of the earth, His spirit descended into the heart of the earth, where He preached to the spirits in prison. (1 Peter 3:19 and Ephesians 4:9-10)


These spirits were the Old Testament righteous dead, who were held in a holding chamber in hades, because no soul could ascend to heaven until Messiah came and atoned for their sins.
This chamber was called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, which is where the thief on the cross went. (Luke 16:22-26)


When He rose, he emptied out paradise, which is why many saints also arose and went into the city after His resurrection. (Matthew 27:53)


His resurrection was bodily, and He appeared for 40 days to His followers before He ascended visibly and bodily to heaven on a cloud from Mount Olive (Acts 1:9-12) - and this same Jesus will return to mount Olive at His second coming, exactly the same as He left, and will bring all the saints from heaven, with Him. (Zechariah 14:5)
 
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Abaxvahl

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Spiritually...It's a mysterious God conundrum...
How is one a Father, without having first been a Son?
How does an "eternal Father", not having a beginning, "REPRODUCE", a Son, "in his likeness"....meaning "also" not having a beginning?

Indeed a great mystery, I think this quote from St. Dionysius of Alexandria (200-265AD) helps shed light on it, you'd probably like it, he also makes the same point about the Father eternally beings Father as you did:

"It has been already said that God is the Fountain of all good things: and the Son is described as the stream flowing forth from Him. For the Word is 'the effluence' of mind, and, to use human phraseology, is conveyed from the heart through the mouth, i.e. the mind that finds expression by means of the tongue, being differentiated from the word in the heart. For the one having sent it forth remains and is still what it was; but the other being sent forth issues and is carried in all directions: and thus each is in each, being different one from the other: and they are one, being two. And it was in this way that the Father and the Son also were said to be one and in one another.

"Each of the titles employed by me is indivisible and inseparable from its neighbor. I spoke of the Father, and before introducing the Son I implied Him, too, in the Father. I introduced the Son: even if I had not already mentioned the Father He would, of course, have been presupposed in the Son. I added the Holy Spirit: but at the same time I intimated both from Whom and through Whom He came. But they are not aware that the Father is not separated from the Son qua Father—for the title (Father) is suggestive of such connexion (as Son with Father)—nor is the Son cut off from the Father; for the appellation 'Father' denotes their common bond. And the Spirit is the object of their dealings being incapable of desertion by either Him that sends, or Him that conveys. How then can I, who use these titles, hold that They are wholly divided and separated?

"For, as our mind overflows with speech of itself, as says the prophet: 'My heart overfloweth with good speech,' and each is diverse from the other, each occupying its proper place distinct from the other, the one dwelling and moving in the heart and the other on the tongue and in the mouth, and yet they are not entirely unconnected nor deprived of one another; the mind is not speechless, nor the speech mindless, but the mind produces the speech, revealing itself thereby; and the speech shows the mind, having been gendered therein; the mind is, as it were, the inlying speech and the speech is the issuing mind; the mind is transferred into the speech and the speech displays the mind to the hearers; and thus the mind through the speech gains a lodgment in the souls of those that hear, entering together with the speech, and the mind is, as it were, the father of the speech, having an independent existence withal; and the speech is, as it were, the son of the mind, being an impossibility prior to the mind, yet brought into association with it from any outside source, but springing from the mind; even so the Father, who is the Almighty and Universal Mind, has the Son, the Word as the Interpreter and Messenger of Himself."
 
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theefaith

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Of course. But infant baptism is invalid because baptism requires a heart felt dedication to God through Christ. It also requires full immersion as Jesus and John the Baptist demonstrated. It has great significance.

There is no proxy arrangement. One has to choose to become a disciple of Christ first, and then their baptism means something. An infant cannot choose and no one can choose for them. Up to the age of accountability, children are counted in with their believing parents.


Like we are told to "put on the new personality", (Ephesians 4:22, 24) so Christians are to 'wear' Jesus like a garment. They strive to imitate his qualities and actions to such an extent that they become a reflection—even if imperfect—of their Master. (1 Thessalonians 1:6)


Oh please.....there is no such Mary Immaculate. She was a sinful human like any other offspring of Adam. (Romans 5:12) There is no exception for Mary.
When Jesus was presented at the Temple, Mary and Joseph made sin offerings for themselves according to the Law. (Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:8)


Hebrews 13:8 says....."Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." What is this saying? Was Jesus in existence before he was conceived in Mary's womb?
Actually, the child who became the man Jesus Christ, came into existence at his conception...an act of God's Spirit.
Up until that time, there was no Jesus, and he did not become the "Christ" (anointed one) until the age of 30 when he was baptized.

If Paul is saying that Jesus is like his Father, (unchangeable) then he will be so forever. "Forever" does not mean "eternal"...it means that something that comes into existence can last indefinitely. That is what God's first purpose was for mankind. To bring humans into existence and then to ensure that they never died....living forever, right here on this earth. No mention was ever made of going to heaven. (or hell)


Yes...but not "the mother of God". Mary has no such status in scripture...in fact very little is written about her.


Isn't that where the Pharisees went wrong? They too substituted tradition for the word of God and Jesus did not have a good word to say about them.
Matthew 15:7-9...
"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying:

8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”


No tradition of men overrides the words of God in the sacred scriptures.
Your traditions carry no weight with anyone but your fellow Catholics.
There is "One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism"...but I certainly can't see that its the Catholic faith. Like Judaism, there is way too much deviation away from the teachings of the Master.

No church has been corrupted so thoroughly, over such a long period of time, but the judge is coming soon and everything will be put right.
Bring it on....
Mark 7
[13] Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

There are three kinds of tradition

sacred tradition or divine revelation
Christ revelation to his church and to be taught to all nations Matt 28:19 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
Example of sacred tradition: that which is taught or handed down
1 cor 11:23 I received of the Lord and made known
Or
Lk 3:2 the word came unto John and he went about preaching repent the kingdom of God is at hand
These are sacred traditions and were not received by the “Bible alone” but are the inspired word of God and divine revelation all three times!
When received:
When taught:
And later when written down in scripture:
NOT SCRIPTURE ALONE!


mere human tradition (harmless) such as the chapters and verses of the scripture
These were not around until the Middle Ages and not part of scripture but everyone accepts them, same as the content of each of the Ten Commandments,

then there is the tradition of men like those under king James who remove whole books and many chapters for the Bible and those like Luther who create five Protestant dogmas and say James Jude and revelation are not scripture this really is the doctrine of devils
 

theefaith

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Of course. But infant baptism is invalid because baptism requires a heart felt dedication to God through Christ. It also requires full immersion as Jesus and John the Baptist demonstrated. It has great significance.

There is no proxy arrangement. One has to choose to become a disciple of Christ first, and then their baptism means something. An infant cannot choose and no one can choose for them. Up to the age of accountability, children are counted in with their believing parents.


Like we are told to "put on the new personality", (Ephesians 4:22, 24) so Christians are to 'wear' Jesus like a garment. They strive to imitate his qualities and actions to such an extent that they become a reflection—even if imperfect—of their Master. (1 Thessalonians 1:6)


Oh please.....there is no such Mary Immaculate. She was a sinful human like any other offspring of Adam. (Romans 5:12) There is no exception for Mary.
When Jesus was presented at the Temple, Mary and Joseph made sin offerings for themselves according to the Law. (Luke 2:22-24; Leviticus 12:8)


Hebrews 13:8 says....."Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." What is this saying? Was Jesus in existence before he was conceived in Mary's womb?
Actually, the child who became the man Jesus Christ, came into existence at his conception...an act of God's Spirit.
Up until that time, there was no Jesus, and he did not become the "Christ" (anointed one) until the age of 30 when he was baptized.

If Paul is saying that Jesus is like his Father, (unchangeable) then he will be so forever. "Forever" does not mean "eternal"...it means that something that comes into existence can last indefinitely. That is what God's first purpose was for mankind. To bring humans into existence and then to ensure that they never died....living forever, right here on this earth. No mention was ever made of going to heaven. (or hell)


Yes...but not "the mother of God". Mary has no such status in scripture...in fact very little is written about her.


Isn't that where the Pharisees went wrong? They too substituted tradition for the word of God and Jesus did not have a good word to say about them.
Matthew 15:7-9...
"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you, by saying:

8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”


No tradition of men overrides the words of God in the sacred scriptures.
Your traditions carry no weight with anyone but your fellow Catholics.
There is "One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism"...but I certainly can't see that its the Catholic faith. Like Judaism, there is way too much deviation away from the teachings of the Master.

No church has been corrupted so thoroughly, over such a long period of time, but the judge is coming soon and everything will be put right.
Bring it on....

I gave you scripture for all your abjections, and you doubled down on you’re spiritual blindness caused by you’re wretched fundamentalism!


The great fundamentalist lie!
Masquerading as truth!


The Great rebellion against Christ and His holy church and apostles!

Reject all of sacred and apostolic Tradition who have the authority of Christ! (The holy apostles)

But accept, obey and submit to the tradition of men like those who translated the KJV Bible (and rejected many books and chapters) and the excommunicated heretic luther who invented the five heretical Solas!

Saul
Pride
Hatred for Christ and Christians
Heretic
Fundamentalist

Paul
Humble
Saint
Faithful Christian
Love of Christ and Christians

Saul thought he was doing the will of God and acting righteously

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Then the risen Christ appeared!
The blinding light of truth prevailed!

So be it with all those who sit in the error of rigorous puritanical fundamentalism!
 
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