The wrath of God?

VictoryinJesus · Sep 21, 2021

I’ve always wondered about James 1:20 especially when I get bitter, angry and vengeful in not getting things my way. “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.”

If the wrath of man (to be repented of)works not the righteousness of God…then is The wrath of God unique from mans in His wrath works righteousness (not to be repented of)?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation (Life)not to be repented of:

but the sorrow of the world works death.

When we speak of The wrath of God in some future is it godly sorrow working repentance to salvation or sorrow of the world working death? Because when considering that which works death to be repented of …it is sin working death revealed by that which is good; that sin might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Yet godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (Life) not to be repented of. So how is the wrath unique from mans which works not the righteousness of God?

Robert Gwin · Sep 22, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve always wondered about James 1:20 especially when I get bitter, angry and vengeful in not getting things my way. “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.”

If the wrath of man (to be repented of)works not the righteousness of God…then is The wrath of God unique from mans in His wrath works righteousness (not to be repented of)?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation (Life)not to be repented of:

but the sorrow of the world works death.

When we speak of The wrath of God in some future is it godly sorrow working repentance to salvation or sorrow of the world working death? Because when considering that which works death to be repented of …it is sin working death revealed by that which is good; that sin might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Yet godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (Life) not to be repented of. So how is the wrath unique from mans which works not the righteousness of God?

The wrath of God does sound viscous for sure Vicky, but it is necessary if this world is to survive. Like us He: (2 Peter 3:9) . . .Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

That is the primary reason His day of wrath has not come yet, it will come when the most will benefit.

Aunty Jane · Sep 23, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve always wondered about James 1:20 especially when I get bitter, angry and vengeful in not getting things my way. “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.”

Or from a modern English translation.....sorry cant really understand that archaic English.
" for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (ESV) Isn't that better?

If the wrath of man (to be repented of)works not the righteousness of God…then is The wrath of God unique from mans in His wrath works righteousness (not to be repented of)?

Since we are made in God's image, it is only natural that we can become angry sometimes. In our sinful state however, it can get out of hand.....and uncontrolled, it could lead to bloodshed. Could God forgive that?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation (Life)not to be repented of:
but the sorrow of the world works death.

Or again from a modern translation...
"For sadness as intended by God produces a repentance that leads to salvation, leaving no regret, but worldly sadness brings about death." (NET)
What is the difference between godly sadness and worldly sadness? One brings regret and a need to make amends...to repent, but worldly sadness just makes you feel bad....if you don't repent, God has no basis to forgive you.

When we speak of The wrath of God in some future is it godly sorrow working repentance to salvation or sorrow of the world working death?

God's wrath is always justified....never expressed in an uncontrolled way and always for the greater good. If we could see the half of what God has to be angry about in this world, we would understand why it has to come.....and why it will be expressed so strongly.
There is so much that offends him to his core....many things not seen by us.....wicked things. (1 John 5:19)

Because when considering that which works death to be repented of …it is sin working death revealed by that which is good; that sin might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Yet godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (Life) not to be repented of. So how is the wrath unique from mans which works not the righteousness of God?

The Law was very detailed and covered the whole scope of man’s activities. The entire Law, which is set forth in the Pentateuch, was of such a high standard of morality that no man could attempt to follow the complete Law without finding that he was convicted by it as being a sinner, imperfect. “The commandment is holy and righteous and good,” and “the Law is spiritual,” says the apostle Paul. “It was added to make transgressions manifest.” (Romans 7:12, 14; Galatians 3:19) The laws showed up their sinfulness on a daily basis.....emphasizing the need for their Savior. That one would take away the sins of the world if only people would exercise faith in that provision.

Webers_Home · Sep 23, 2021

.
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and
fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which
indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be
weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated
with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler.
(cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals
that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in
attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions
savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in
ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of
humane feelings

• Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It
speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're
actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so
coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the
magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to
get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little babe away in a manger.

• John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment
to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

• Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with
justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men
by raising him from the dead.

• Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
_

VictoryinJesus · Sep 23, 2021

Webers_Home said:
.
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and
fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which
indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be
weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated
with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler.
(cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals
that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in
attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions
savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in
ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of
humane feelings

• Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It
speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're
actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so
coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the
magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to
get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little babe away in a manger.

• John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment
to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

• Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with
justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men
by raising him from the dead.

• Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
_

I might be one of those coddlers by sappy versions of Christianity. Anyways, thank you for commenting. I can’t remember now why I even started this thread.

VictoryinJesus · Sep 23, 2021

Webers_Home said:
.
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and
fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which
indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be
weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated
with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler.
(cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals
that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in
attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions
savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in
ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of
humane feelings

• Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It
speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're
actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so
coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the
magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to
get them.

Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little babe away in a manger.

• John 5:22-23 . .The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment
to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

• Acts 17:31 . . For God has set a day when he will judge the world with
justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men
by raising him from the dead.

• Rev 19:15 . . He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the
winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
_

2 Corinthians 7:11 Lexicon: For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

what indignation!
What revenge! …vengeance, vindication! What avenging of wrong This godly sorrow has produced in you. “Another interesting aspect of the wrath of God is the person appointed to
administer it-- none other than the sweet little babe away in a manger.”

Aunty Jane · Sep 23, 2021

Webers_Home said:
.
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

• Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and
fierce anger

This is the only part of your post that I am at odds with.
Since this is from the book of Isaiah, it reads in the Tanakh, “the day of Yahweh”. So it is the great judgment “day of Yahweh”, but it is exercised through his appointed judge, who is Jesus Christ. As the commander of God’s angelic forces, he will judge according to God’s righteousness, not man’s.

Zephaniah too spoke of this day (Zephaniah 1:14) so did Joel (Joel 1:15) and Amos (Amos 5:18) and Obadiah (Ob 15) all prophetically pointing to that day and speaking of God’s anger as a righteous pronouncement of his Sovereignty over his enemies and those who failed to correct their worship. Judaism stands as the prime example of how that turns out....still waiting for their Messiah, who will never come to them again except as judge, because they could not be corrected. (Matthew 23:37-39)

You have brought out many good points as we are staring down the barrel of that “day” sooner than many are expecting and yes, the majority of “Christians” do not really know what is coming, and will be unprepared, not only for the judgment, but also of the fact that Christ will find the “many” in Christendom, (like Judaism) unacceptable in their worship. (Matthew 7:21-23)

How sad that “few” are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) It’s a difficult road to travel, but that is why so many are on the wrong road. They have not been prepared to sacrifice anything for their Lord.
There is so much of Christendom’s beliefs that are borrowed from paganism, and yet they seem either unaware, or unconcerned. (1 Corinthians 10:20-21; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Thank you for your post, the truth is not palatable for most.

Webers_Home · Sep 23, 2021

.

Aunty Jane said:
Since this is from the book of Isaiah, it reads in the Tanakh, “the day of
Yahweh”.

You're correct, of course, and for the life of me I cannot remember where I
saw it as "Christ" instead of Yahweh and/or Jehovah because I've checked
my usual Bible resources and none of them word it with Christ.
_

VictoryinJesus · Sep 23, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
and Amos (Amos 5:18)

question concerning Amos 5:18
Woe to you who desire lthe day of the Lord!
Why would you have the day of the Lord?
It is darkness, and not light,
as if a man fled from a lion,
and a bear met him,
or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall,
and a serpent bit him.
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also you have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as you also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

why is the day of the Lord darkness?
how can the day of the Lord be gloom with no brightness in it …when He is the brightness of the day of the Lord?
yet 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
?

Also, can you help with what is “the evil day” we are to withstand? Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

Aunty Jane · Sep 23, 2021

Hi VIJ...you have asked some great questions....

VictoryinJesus said:
question concerning Amos 5:18
Woe to you who desire lthe day of the Lord!
Why would you have the day of the Lord?
It is darkness, and not light,
as if a man fled from a lion,
and a bear met him,
or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall,
and a serpent bit him.
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it?

To whom were all the prophets speaking? It was to God's disobedient people, and the "great and fear inspiring day of the Lord' (Jehovah) was going to come in the future to put all of God's enemies out of existence.

The prophet Micah adds his voice to that of the other prophets.....Micah ch 4...
"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.
. . . . 5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers back to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and strike the land with complete destruction.”

So this is contrasting the fate of the evil and disobedient with the outcome for the righteous and obedient ones.

We know that John the Baptist carried out the role like that of Elijah, pointing to the one coming after him as the Messiah.
And that scripture in 1Thessalonians 5:2 confirms that "the day of the Lord" had not yet come in Christian times....but Paul said it would come as a thief....IOW, as that verse in context brings out...Vs1-5
"Now as to the periods and a times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober."

So you can see that some would be spiritually "asleep", not watching intently the times and what was happening in the world.
A great day of judgment was coming, but it would catch most people by surprise because they had not kept spiritually awake. Remember the parable of the ten virgins? The bridegroom turned up at a time when they were all sleeping, but the wise ones had oil in reserve so that when the bridegroom arrived they could relight their lamps and enter into the wedding feast. The ones not so prepared missed out.

Did you notice too that a cry of "Peace and Security" was to precede this day of judgment, furthering the shock at its arrival when the opposite seemed assured. This cry of 'Peace and Security' does not come from God, but from the world ruled by satan. He has lulled people into a false sense of security...trusting in human rulers to save them.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is speaking about congregational discipline, which meant removing an unrepentant wrongdoer so that they did not become a bad influence on others. Handing them over to satan (removing them from spiritual association) was hopefully to teach them where they were better off. Like the Prodigal son, who demanded his inheritance and left for a better life outside of his father's house....but who then squandered it on loose living and a high lifestyle...but when the money ran out, he was confronted with reality. Life in his Father's house was so much better than the falseness of people in the world who only wanted to be friends with him for his money. It was a hard lesson but it prompted humility and his return was a joyous occasion for the father.....who of course pictures God. So happy to receive repentant ones back in the family and who would thus be protected when the day of God's anger was unleashed.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also you have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as you also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The day of the Lord Jesus in being the judge of all mankind will be a day of great rejoicing when those we love as part of our spiritual family are protected through the shocking events of the final showdown.

why is the day of the Lord darkness?
how can the day of the Lord be gloom with no brightness in it …when He is the brightness of the day of the Lord?
yet 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:?

The bad news is offset by the good news. The day of the Lord is bad news for all who oppose Christ and his incoming Kingdom. And also for those who have been led to believe blasphemous lies about the relationship of God and his son. Those who have been fed false doctrines and traditions of men by a very corrupt "church" system hijacked by the devil. Jesus forewarned us about the weeds that satan would sow in the world to mislead people.

Also, can you help with what is “the evil day” we are to withstand? Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

Our suit of armour is what Paul described at Ephesians 6:11-13. It will be an evil day indeed for the wicked.....but walking out of that situation unharmed will be a joyous thing.

Hope that helps....

VictoryinJesus · Sep 23, 2021

@Aunty Jane it does help. Thank you. It is late here so I’ll hopefully come back to it tomorrow morning. It is a lot to digest.

Aunty Jane said:
The prophet Micah adds his voice to that of the other prophets.....Micah ch 4...
"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.
. . . . 5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers back to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and strike the land with complete destruction.”

But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.

Does make me think of:
Romans 16:19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Webers_Home · Sep 24, 2021

.
According to Rev 16:18-19 where there's predicted a world-wide earthquake
preceding Christ's return so severe on the Richter scale that cities all over
the world will collapse at once.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of
New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al.

The carnage will be beyond belief. Surely nobody in a right mind is anxious
to see all of that start to happen.

By the time the tribulation is completed, Jesus will have a massive clean-up
on his hands what with all the destruction and death all over the globe caused
by earth movements, disease, war, and famine.

The thousand years of his kingdom on earth is predicted to be prosperous. It
would be cool if Jesus set up an FDR style WPA because that would be a big
step towards getting the earth back to a green condition and simultaneously
providing jobs for tribulation survivors; else they'll be homeless: prowling
the rubble and roaming the land like human wildlife in a Mad Max movie.

Jesus will have to restore essential services too like fire, police, and medical;
besides water, power, and sanitation.

Where will the church be during all this reconstruction? I'm guessing right in
the middle of it.
_

Aunty Jane · Sep 24, 2021

Webers_Home said:
According to Rev 16:18-19 where there's predicted a world-wide earthquake
preceding Christ's return so severe on the Richter scale that cities all over
the world will collapse at once.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of
New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al.

The carnage will be beyond belief. Surely nobody in a right mind is anxious
to see all of that start to happen.

The Bible does not concentrate on the carnage except to indicate the magnitude of it. The “many” whom Jesus rejects at the judgment (Matthew 7:21-23) will be like the flood victims in Noah’s day...given ample opportunity to change their ways, but choosing rather to go with the majority view, only to be confronted with the reality.....but too late. None of them will be in any doubt as to who is bringing this judgment against them, and who it was who tried to warn them. Jesus said it would be just like the days of Noah....demon inspired violence and immortality seen everywhere. (Matthew 24:37-39) Now we are experiencing the other aspects of Jesus “presence”. (Matthew 24:3-14) He is already here, overseeing the work that he assigned his disciples to do. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) God will never bring anything upon mankind without first warning them. Whether people act on that warning is up to them. But if it’s “like the days of Noah”, then only a minority will actually respond because the devil will make it seem highly improbable......or like the Pharisees of Jesus’ day, many will have unreal expectations about where they stand with God.

By the time the tribulation is completed, Jesus will have a massive clean-up
on his hands what with all the destruction and death all over the globe caused
by earth movements, disease, war, and famine.

Again the scriptures do not concentrate on the clean up or how much involvement the survivors will have to contribute to it. But like the flood, I’m sure God will have his own way to manage the clean up and to get on with preparing for the resurrection (John 5:28-29)....I cannot see him bringing them back to chaos.....and imagine the educational work involved in bringing them up to speed as to what has occurred in their absence, and what is now required of them in this new world where satan does not interfere....how amazing will that be? That 1,000 years will bring all mankind back to God’s first purpose, and after one final test, everything will go back to the way it should have been all along. (Isaiah 55:11)

The thousand years of his kingdom on earth is predicted to be prosperous. It
would be cool if Jesus set up an FDR style WPA because that would be a big
step towards getting the earth back to a green condition and simultaneously
providing jobs for tribulation survivors; else they'll be homeless: prowling
the rubble and roaming the land like human wildlife in a Mad Max movie.

I can’t see anything but a coordinated and orderly clean up, but who knows what God has up his sleeve in order to get things back to a manageable level? Our power is meagre compared to his.

Jesus will have to restore essential services too like fire, police, and medical;
besides water, power, and sanitation.

I can’t see that those will be necessary either. No disaster will befall anyone in the new world. Important services will be restored in rapid time or else the survivors will suffer hardship....I can’t see God adding to what they have already been through. Unlike the services provided by man, God will have more natural ways to deal with those things.....ways that do not pollute the waterways, the soil or the air. Everything on this planet was designed to recycle. So that theme will play out in every aspect of the new world I believe.

That was the whole idea of placing humans in paradise with no knowledge of evil....it was never meant to be in their experience. There was never to be any old age, sickness or death. God was to be their eternal King and all his subjects would have been expected to fulfill his commands to make the whole world into the garden of Eden. In exchange for their services, they would get to enjoy the beauty, serenity and peace of what was to become a jewel in his crown. Who knows what he has planned for the rest of the universe? I’m guessing that he did not create it for nothing.

Where will the church be during all this reconstruction? I'm guessing right in
the middle of it.

I guess that depends on what you mean by “the church”......that is a whole other question....

VictoryinJesus · Sep 28, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Jesus said it would be just like the days of Noah....demon inspired violence and immortality seen everywhere

I’ve been thinking a lot about Noah’s ark. Especially pertaining to movies and having heard it said that by Noah’s ark the world was saved. But that isn’t true as only eight were saved and the rest perished. Even in science fiction movies today that destruction comes upon the earth and the people hurry to build arks either going to some other planet or to ride out the storm…there is always room for more than eight. In fact we get offended when in movies the rich pose an lottery for tickets for seats on arks and those not selected perish. Honesty that is about how I feel with this we are going to need police and emergency services reinstated after the carnage. And if not, then at least Jesus Christ will help us clean up all the stink of the rotting corpses in all the rubble.

Aunty Jane said:
But if it’s “like the days of Noah”, then only a minority will actually respond

have you ever considered that like in the days of Noah people will shut up their bowels of compassion? 1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Consider that above with Noah’s ark where only eight were saved. Condemnation and death “But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?”

you said “But if it’s “like the days of Noah”, then only a minority will actually respond” what of Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

Great questions....I can see that you are a thinker.

There is a lot to address so I will break it up....

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve been thinking a lot about Noah’s ark. Especially pertaining to movies and having heard it said that by Noah’s ark the world was saved. But that isn’t true as only eight were saved and the rest perished. Even in science fiction movies today that destruction comes upon the earth and the people hurry to build arks either going to some other planet or to ride out the storm…there is always room for more than eight. In fact we get offended when in movies the rich pose an lottery for tickets for seats on arks and those not selected perish. Honesty that is about how I feel with this we are going to need police and emergency services reinstated after the carnage. And if not, then at least Jesus Christ will help us clean up all the stink of the rotting corpses in all the rubble.

It is true that the scriptures paint a graphic picture of the end times carnage, but we can leave that to Jehovah. This is his battle not ours. This final war will end all wars forever.
God’s adversary will never be permitted to take humankind to the brink of extinction in rebellion again.

The story of Noah’s ark has many facets of interest that are used by Christian Bible writers to illustrate certain points. Jesus himself likened the time of his return to “the days of Noah” because mankind would again reach this level of violence and immorality. It doesn’t shock people anymore, just like it must have seemed “normal” to someone growing up in that environment in Noah’s day.

So why did God bring the flood in the first place? Genesis tells us that ”the sons of God” noticed that “the daughters of men” were very beautiful. Contrasting the “sons of God” with “the daughters of men” reveal that these “sons” were not humans, but rebel angels in materialised form, seeking the pleasures of the flesh with beautiful human women. Other accounts tells us of such matialized visitation by angels to God’s ancient servants. So when these angels took on human form, they wanted to have sexual relations with human women and they took “all whom they chose”....and they actually produced children...freakish offspring who grew up to be gigantic in size and violent bullies by nature. These were the “Nephilim”, literally meaning ‘those who caused others to fall down’.

The violence and immorality produced by these creatures and their errant fathers caused God to act in a very dramatic way......in order to put a stop to this evil influence on mankind, he had to end all avenues for these creatures to remain on earth, but at the same time to provide pictorial examples of things to come....

1) The level of violence and immorality that was possible for humans when satanic influence was involved, and would be seen again.
2) The fact that all mankind were influenced by these creatures, except one man whose heart was with God and who kept himself separated from all of that, proving that it was possible to resist evil when all around you were not.
3) The fact that God did not “save” Noah, but gave him instructions on how to save himself and his family, tells us that working for our own salvation can be a lengthy and difficult task.
4) The instructions were detailed and had to be followed to the letter, with no deviation or inclusion of his own ideas, showing us the value of obedience.
5) It took time and hard work for Noah to save himself and all the creatures that God selected for inclusion in this enormous vessel. To this day, the ratios of width/ height/ length that were used in the ark are still proven to be extremely stable for the construction of vessels that travel the oceans of the world in all weather conditions. The ark was not a boat, but an enormous box, designed to float, not to navigate. It had no bow or stern or rudder.
6) The means that God used to eliminate these threats to human existence, had never been experienced before, so when Noah warned the people of what God was going to do, it seemed like fantasy. The people instead ridiculed him and his construction.
7) It must have taken decades for the construction to take place because Noah was childless when he received his instructions.....he had three sons who helped in the construction and these in turn had a wife who also contributed to the work, gathering food supplies and all the necessary things for the animals as well as themselves. All the creatures of that time were vegetarians. There were no carnivores. (Genesis 1:29-30)
8) The ark was the only place of safety....everything outside of the ark that breathed air...perished......the ones on the ark were the only creatures saved.

VictoryinJesus said:
have you ever considered that like in the days of Noah people will shut up their bowels of compassion? 1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Consider that above with Noah’s ark where only eight were saved. Condemnation and death “But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?”

Sorry but I had to look that up in a modern English translation...
“But whoever has the material possessions of this world and sees his brother in need and yet refuses to show him compassion, in what way does the love of God remain in him?”

Are you wondering how Noah felt about his own relatives who scoffed at his message? Was he shutting up his compassion for them? No, he must have felt sad for the ones who failed to listen, but this was God’s righteous judgment not Noah’s. All he could do was warn them of God’s intentions and leave the rest to Him. Since God’s judgments are altogether righteous and the penalty he renders is always just, we do not have any fingers to point at God who gives a warning to humankind before he deliver a punishment, providing all an opportunity to repent and come over to his side. The ark was enormous, capable of housing many more humans, but no one wanted to get on board. It wasn’t Noah who closed the door of the ark...it was God. The ‘door of opportunity’ is still open for those who now face a similar but final judgment today.....the majority of whom are standing outside the ark ridiculing God’s messengers in the same way, and for the same reasons as they did back then.

Aunty Jane · Sep 28, 2021

VictoryinJesus said:
you said “But if it’s “like the days of Noah”, then only a minority will actually respond” what of Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Unlike Noah’s Day, there will be many who do respond.....but they will be “few” in comparison to the world’s population. (Matthew 7:13-14) These are the ones whom Christ has reconciled with God because they wanted to come on board....these are the ones on the ‘spiritual’ ark today. They have accepted the invitation to be in the only place of safety there will be when the final showdown comes on this world. It is very near and this catastrophic event will take the majority of people by surprise....just like the flood did in Noah’s time. Imagine the thoughts of those who ridiculed Noah, with the water swirling around them, now wishing they had heeded his warning....

We also have to be mindful of who is a “goat” when Jesus comes to judge all of us.
Matthew 7:21-23 is important...
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

Calling ourselves “Christians”...like these ones claiming Jesus as their “Lord” But not “doing the will of the Father” is a warning. Jesus tells these ones that he “NEVER knew them”.....but they thought they were doing everything right. So it is up to each and every one of us to examine what we believe and to make sure that it is in agreement with God’s word. Remember the parable of the “wheat and the weeds” that Jesus gave? (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-42)
He warned that the devil would sow seeds of a counterfeit Christianity that would cover the whole world. Stand back and look at Christendom and ask what fruitage you see in that fragmented mess that claims to be the “Christianity” that Jesus taught. They are a force for nothing positive in this world, often divisive and up to their necks in the politics and bloodshed of their respective nations. Even calling their churches after their own countries as if Christ is divided by nationality. (Acts 10:34-35)
We are not to be like that. (Matthew 5:43-44; John 18:36; John 15:18-21)

If we see God’s righteous judgments as a necessary part of his final path to reintroducing his rightful rulership over this earth, then we will feel the impact of what Jesus said about becoming a disciple....
Matthew 10:34-39
“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is notworthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.“

Love for our family members cannot come between us and God or we become unworthy of salvation.
Satan wants to divide our loyalties because he knows that it can gain him a victory....he has used the same tactics from the beginning......and they are still working. The first and most important Commandment is to “Love God with all our heart and soul” so if we can’t keep the First Commandment, then keeping the second “to love our neighbor as ourselves” (relative or friend) has no value.

These are tough questions and the answers are sometimes hard to process....but taking our concerns to God and asking for the right attitude will help us to overcome emotional obstacles to our thinking. Many of God’s servant in the past had to do so.
Emotions have their place, but satan will manipulate them to get us to disobey God.

I hope that has helped to answer your questions....sorry it was so long, but I am a stickler for detail.
I have to be able to see the big picture and fit everything into it.
Peace to you VIJ....

quietthinker · May 4, 2022

For those of us who have come to know a God of breathtaking kindness and for those who feel justified in peddling a God who is itching to fry the opposition, take a look at this very condensed version of 'Sinners in the hands of a loving God'

David in NJ · May 4, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
I might be one of those coddlers by sappy versions of Christianity. Anyways, thank you for commenting. I can’t remember now why I even started this thread.

Maybe because the Holy Spirit says His Wrath is on the way and coming soon to the Jew first and also to the Gentile who have hardened their hearts unto the Day of Judgment.

Prepare yourself by reading the Gospel of John, Acts, 1 Corinthians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 John and Revelation.

Reading all of the NT and Genesis is even better.

Davy · May 5, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
I’ve always wondered about James 1:20 especially when I get bitter, angry and vengeful in not getting things my way. “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.”

If the wrath of man (to be repented of)works not the righteousness of God…then is The wrath of God unique from mans in His wrath works righteousness (not to be repented of)?

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation (Life)not to be repented of:

but the sorrow of the world works death.

When we speak of The wrath of God in some future is it godly sorrow working repentance to salvation or sorrow of the world working death? Because when considering that which works death to be repented of …it is sin working death revealed by that which is good; that sin might become exceeding sinful. Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Yet godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation (Life) not to be repented of. So how is the wrath unique from mans which works not the righteousness of God?

Keep it simple. Righteous indignation we have is just (true indignation per God's Word), because it aligns with what God had said He hates, and which He has said He will cast His Wrath upon for those worthy of punishment. And one of the things He has said His wrath is going to come upon are the beth-avens (houses of vanity). He is going to literally destroy them (Hosea 10:8).

ScottA · May 5, 2022

VictoryinJesus said:
So how is the wrath unique from mans which works not the righteousness of God?

Man's wrath is against men, but God's wrath is for man but against evil.

The wrath of God?

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