The Flesh & The Spirit

aspen · Apr 15, 2011

Truth,

You are the most convicted liberal I have met in a chatroom in the last 10 years (THIS GUY'S GOT ZEAL!!!!!)- and I have had futile discussions with many people; including the usual suspects - James White, Matt [slicker than] Slick, and even some of the guys at CatholicAnswers. However, I have never met a person more liberal than myself, that has bothered to stick around long enough - that even cared enough to try and sway the opinion of others like you do! Most liberals simply want to state their opinions and and let the chips fall where they may or simply cannot compete with conservatives on their playing field and end up snubbing those that disagree with them or sulking - not you! You have the theology of an unothodox liberal Christian, combined with the conviction of the most 'fun' fundamentalist out there! I am serious! The result: your opinions have galvanized Catholics and Protestants - conservatives and liberals - even provocative posters and those who like to play it safe! We all may disagree with each other, but friend, we all agree your ideas are way, way out there.

In a way I am strangely impressed.........I've always admired persistence

On the other hand, I've never liked having to be the conservative in the conversation! I moved away from SF for a reason........being marginalized as "the conservation" in the Mecca of liberalism can be as quick as being "outed" for having one exclusive opinion......and that is a real drag.

Joseph Smith made a famous claim that he had done more for Christianity than Christ........You've certainly done more for unifying the divided body of Christ than Joseph Smith - I have to hand it to you, brother!

Alethos · Apr 16, 2011

Thankful 1 said:
Inquiring minds, like the human mind is going to understand God? What a fallacy that is, people want to believe they are intelligent, when to compared to God man is foolish.

You think man will find some hidden truth in the bible that the Early Christians, who knew Jesus while he was here on earth, and the bible, tells us they had the Holy Spirit teach them, and you want people to believe they did not understand your hidden truths?

It took all these years for your inquiring mind to discover these hidden truths. God hid these truths from his people for all these years, and people like you with inquiring minds are now privileged to share these truths. Again I say garbage.

Hi Thankful 1

I believe God wants to stretch my mind and have me strive to understand Him. He has given me His word and shown me that it is 'the glory of Kings to search it out' (Proverbs 25:2) and that in striving to humbly and sincerely do so, I give Him glory in some amazing and humbling way...

For those who may disagree strongly with my views, please don't stoop to insulting me. As you will see, I don't hold your views, but genuinely am comparing scripture with scripture and discerning His message.

The best thing you can do if you truly believe I am in error is patiently respond with scripture. I simply will not yield on a point simply because its 'orthodox' teaching or a council convened in the 3rd century and 'deemed the scripture meant this or that'.

I hold that the Bible prayerfully read and sincerely studied is the means by which God reveals His ways and His truth. This is why the insults and accusations won't sway me... but open the Bible and 'reason' (Acts 17:2, 18:4, 19, 24:25) with me out of the scriptures and I'm all ears...

God bless you Thankful 1

Alethos

Alethos · Apr 16, 2011

aspen said:
Truth,

You are the most convicted liberal I have met in a chatroom in the last 10 years (THIS GUY'S GOT ZEAL!!!!!)- and I have had futile discussions with many people; including the usual suspects - James White, Matt [slicker than] Slick, and even some of the guys at CatholicAnswers. However, I have never met a person more liberal than myself, that has bothered to stick around long enough - that even cared enough to try and sway the opinion of others like you do! Most liberals simply want to state their opinions and and let the chips fall where they may or simply cannot compete with conservatives on their playing field and end up snubbing those that disagree with them or sulking - not you! You have the theology of an unothodox liberal Christian, combined with the conviction of the most 'fun' fundamentalist out there! I am serious! The result: your opinions have galvanized Catholics and Protestants - conservatives and liberals - even provocative posters and those who like to play it safe! We all may disagree with each other, but friend, we all agree your ideas are way, way out there.

In a way I am strangely impressed.........I've always admired persistence

On the other hand, I've never liked having to be the conservative in the conversation! I moved away from SF for a reason........being marginalized as "the conservation" in the Mecca of liberalism can be as quick as being "outed" for having one exclusive opinion......and that is a real drag.

Joseph Smith made a famous claim that he had done more for Christianity than Christ........You've certainly done more for unifying the divided body of Christ than Joseph Smith - I have to hand it to you, brother!

Hi Aspen,

John the Baptist once said "He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease."John 3:30. The true nature of Jesus Christ must be preached and understood that many may know him and understand the great victory over sin and death, which both Father and Son achieved together for us. For God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. 2 Cor 5:19.

This persistence is not above me and never was, its all about knowing the true Jesus Christ; he it is who must increase and I must decrease.

I will leave you with John 17:3 which is where all our discussions and studies should lead us.

Love in the Master

Alethos

Duckybill · Apr 16, 2011

Truth said:
I hold that the Bible prayerfully read and sincerely studied is the means by which God reveals His ways and His truth. This is why the insults and accusations won't sway me... but open the Bible and 'reason' (Acts 17:2, 18:4, 19, 24:25) with me out of the scriptures and I'm all ears...

Jesus/God, the devil/ Satan/ the evil one, and eternal Hell are basic Bible truths. I doubt that you believe any of them.

Alethos · Apr 16, 2011

Duckybill said:
Jesus/God, the devil/ Satan/ the evil one, and eternal Hell are basic Bible truths. I doubt that you believe any of them.

Do you believe in these basic Bible truths because you have proven them for yourself? and do you actually understand what you believe? A loving brother and friend of mine sent me a quote the other day, which you might appreciate, or not?

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” - Galileo Galilei

Alethos 1 Pet 3:15

aspen · Apr 16, 2011

John the Baptist once said "He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease."John 3:30. The true nature of Jesus Christ must be preached and understood that many may know him and understand the great victory over sin and death, which both Father and Son achieved together for us. For God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. 2 Cor 5:19.

Well, I apologize, but it is hard for me to see a comparison between you and John the Baptist, as a voice in the wilderness Matt 3:3; when you misinterpreted Matt 7:7 on such a basic level in our previous conversation.

This persistence is not above me and never was, its all about knowing the true Jesus Christ; he it is who must increase and I must decrease.

Persistence is great! I wasn't criticizing you about your persistence - but I do question your understanding and use of scripture. The fact is, Christians do differ on interpretation, however, there are standards of agreement that cannot be compromised without recognizing and stating that you are going outside the lines. Here is an example: I believe that women should be allowed to be ministers - I recognize that I am clearly holding a belief that is considered outside the bounds of sound doctrine by many Christians - including my own Church. Is it okay to hold my own opinion? Sure! Is it okay for me to claim that my opinion is more credible than my Churches' opinion or the opinions of other Christians who hold to a more orthodox view - one that appears to be supported by scripture - NO! I simply do not have the authority to do so. I freely admit that my opinion on this subject is provocative and may be wrong. In this case, I am willing to be wrong, however, I am not willing to fight to re-write the doctrine of my church or try to twist scripture to support my views or ignore scripture that conflicts with it in order to teach or try to convince people of my opinion. I enjoy thinking about new ways to think about scripture, but I believe I should always be clear that I am merely presenting my opinion about Catholic doctrine and the Bible. I hope you can at least acknowledge this distinction and hopefully, see the dangerous possibility of teaching a private interpretation of the scripture when caution and clarity is disregarded.

I will leave you with John 17:3 which is where all our discussions and studies should lead us.

I agree completely!

Alethos · Apr 16, 2011

Sorry Aspen I was not referring to myself as John...rather his message.

I am nothing! let Christ be our voice and may he go before us. If all our energies are in the persuit of his will and pleasure we will fall under his hand and be his slaves, in love. Titus 2:9

Alethos

aspen · Apr 16, 2011

Truth said:
Sorry Aspen I was not referring to myself as John...rather his message.

I am nothing! let Christ be our voice and may he go before us. If all our energies are in the persuit of his will and pleasure we will fall under his hand and be his slaves, in love. Titus 2:9

Alethos

I totally agree with your statement - but it doesn't appear to match your willingness to teach provocative, unorthodox, and seemingly, private interpretations of scripture; which I find to be troubling; especially because you seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize the pattern.

Alethos · Apr 17, 2011

aspen said:
I totally agree with your statement - but it doesn't appear to match your willingness to teach provocative, unorthodox, and seemingly, private interpretations of scripture; which I find to be troubling; especially because you seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize the pattern.

Aspen,

The scriptures speak for themselves and to themselves. The true nature of Christ was taught and understood correctly during the time of the Apostles, so I present no knew teaching. The strength of the teaching is my conviction in their validity. I have proven them over and over and they are found to be true.

An example of the devil and satan study has revealed that many believe in a supernatural demonic being but how many have presented numerous scriptural references together to show a whole or complete understanding of satan? The context of the scriptures are always found to be vastly different to what has been previously thought. AS you would know we can approach a verse with pre conceived ideas.

This has created doubt in many because they thought they understood these verses, but did they?

If the Word of God is the foundation surely that foundation can be tested and retested for its strength and soundness? 1 Thess 5:21 2 Tim 2:15 Eccl 1:13 Eccl 7:25 Prov 25:2 and its what God does of us Psa 139:23

Alethos

St Columcille · Apr 17, 2011

aspen said:
I believe that women should be allowed to be ministers - I recognize that I am clearly holding a belief that is considered outside the bounds of sound doctrine by many Christians - including my own Church. Is it okay to hold my own opinion? Sure! Is it okay for me to claim that my opinion is more credible than my Churches' opinion or the opinions of other Christians who hold to a more orthodox view - one that appears to be supported by scripture - NO! I simply do not have the authority to do so. I freely admit that my opinion on this subject is provocative and may be wrong. In this case, I am willing to be wrong, however, I am not willing to fight to re-write the doctrine of my church or try to twist scripture to support my views or ignore scripture that conflicts with it in order to teach or try to convince people of my opinion. I enjoy thinking about new ways to think about scripture, but I believe I should always be clear that I am merely presenting my opinion about Catholic doctrine and the Bible. I hope you can at least acknowledge this distinction and hopefully, see the dangerous possibility of teaching a private interpretation of the scripture when caution and clarity is disregarded.

Wow. I'd have to say there is some compartmentalizing going on in your comments.

Rule 6. They have been made living members of th Church by being buried and raised with Christ in baptism; they have been united more intimately with the Church by profession. Therefore, they should go forth as witnesses and instruments of her mission among all people, proclaiming Christ by their life and words.
Called like Saint Francis to rebuild the Church and inspired by his example, let them devote themselves energetically to living in full communion with the pope, bishops, and priests, fostering an open and trusting dialogue of apostolic effectiveness and creativity.

Rule 19. Mindful that they are bearers of peace which must be built up unceasingly, they should seek out ways of unity and fraternal harmony through dialogue, trusting in the presence of the divine seed in everyone and in the transforming power of love and pardon.
Messengers of perfect joy in every circumstance, they should strive to bring joy and hope to others.
Since they are immersed in the resurrection of Christ, which gives true meaning to Sister Death, let them serenely tend toward the ultimate encounter with the Father.

I've cited these two Rules of St. Francis of Assisi approved by Pope Paul VI for Secular Franciscans as a means of a quide for myself to temper what I am going to further say.
I enjoy academic pursuits that challenge my faith. I am in full agreement with John Milton's "Aeropagetica" in regards to never allowing for censorship. It has served the Church well to preserve and investigate the ideas of pagan Rome, so much so that the Emperor Justin the Apostate made it illegal for Christians to teach on paganism because the Christians were able to refute it so well. When Paul was on Areopagus, he quoted the Greek's own poets. For many Christians, quoting Joseph Smith to make a point to Mormons is unorthodox, and yet Dr. Walter Martin did it so well that by his influence there were many who left Mormonism for Evangelical Christianity. So, while I admire academic pursuits, the aspect of full communion with the pope, bishops, and priests is having a true conversion to the truthfulness of the interpretation of the Magesterium.

12.I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters,a by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritualb worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world,c but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.d
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. 6 We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us: prophecy, in proportion to faith; 7 ministry, in ministering; the teacher, in teaching; 8 the exhorter, in exhortation; the giver, in generosity; the leader, in diligence; the compassionate, in cheerfulness.
Marks of the True Christian
9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; 10 love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord.e 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly;f do not claim to be wiser than you are. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God;g for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. 2008 (Ro 12). Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

I've cited the whole passage above because I feel it fits Rule 19. But, I underlined "transformed by the renewing of your minds" because this seems to be where the battle begins. I think it fits Rule 6. St. Francis was really creative in dealing with Al-Kamil when he walked straight across the carpet that was made with the images of crosses. When he wrestled with his flesh, he made several snowpeople and called them his family until his flesh relented. One does not have to be "liberal" to be creative. I, as a person pursuing becoming Franciscan, must abide by the Rule of St. Francis. I guess I am grateful that are unwilling to fight for woman ordination, we had a priest in Nashville who made a comment on YouTube who had to recant on the prompting of Bishop David Choby in the Nashville Register or face serious consequences as laid out in the Code of Canon Law. The priest obviously made a private opinion on the matter, but you cannot really seperate private from public when it comes to being in full communion with the teachings of the Church.

I am just saying. I had to wrestle for some time on the issue of capital punishment when I first became Catholic. But I sought out what I thought was sound apologetic reasons, and eventually I come to embrace the Church's position as it reflects a consistency on the principle of sanctity of human life.

aspen · Apr 17, 2011

The scriptures speak for themselves and to themselves. The true nature of Christ was taught and understood correctly during the time of the Apostles, so I present no knew teaching. The strength of the teaching is my conviction in their validity. I have proven them over and over and they are found to be true.

The scriptures are Truth. We form opinions about that Truth. Your opinions are not shared with the majority of Christian thought. That is fine, but you have over-identified with your opinion about Truth - and are teaching your minority opinion as actual Truth and you refuse to acknowledge it. BTW, believing strongly in an idea does not make it valid or true. The Cathars were willing to believe in some extremely heretical ideas which lead to their death, rather than give them up. They were wrong and they died for their wrong beliefs.

See that is the problem......you have proven nothing except that you are unwilling to listen to the many people who have pointed you towards orthodoxy. You appear stubborn, rather than right.

An example of the devil and satan study has revealed that many believe in a supernatural demonic being but how many have presented numerous scriptural references together to show a whole or complete understanding of satan? The context of the scriptures are always found to be vastly different to what has been previously thought. AS you would know we can approach a verse with pre conceived ideas.

The fact is, you have decided to dismiss every person who has attempted to reason with you. No one is as smart, humble, complete in their understanding as you believe yourself to be. All I am saying is, if you are here to declare you pet understanding of scripture that no one believes to be a true understanding of the Bible or Christian thought on the subject - simply say so!

This has created doubt in many because they thought they understood these verses, but did they?

So it is your purpose here to create doubt? Did Christ tell us to go forth and create doubt? Honestly, I think you are giving yourself a lot of credit. Once again, your appear stubborn and a bit arrogant, not Right.

If the Word of God is the foundation surely that foundation can be tested and retested for its strength and soundness? 1 Thess 5:21 2 Tim 2:15 Eccl 1:13 Eccl 7:25 Prov 25:2 and its what God does of us Psa 139:23

Not through private interpretation of the scriptures. The scriptures are not supposed to be used like Legos - stacked individually to create a private story. Doesn't it worry you in the least that someone like Augustine never thought about your obvious interpretations? Thomas Aquinas - the greatest scholastic thinker of the Middle Ages, the man who was brilliant enough to write the Summa Theologica, but never realized that satan wasn't really an angel and was killed by Christ? You see how this could be perceived as a bit presumptuous on your part?

You call yourself a simple man without a lot of learning..........you might want to consider reading some of the history of Christian thought .......perhaps a bit about common Christian heresy and how they were formed.....

Learning church history is a humbling experience for most......quite often, one finds that his/her brilliant discoveries were thought about and dealt with by people a lot smarter than themselves, a long time ago.

blessings

aspen · Apr 17, 2011

St. Columcille said:
Wow. I'd have to say there is some compartmentalizing going on in your comments.

Rule 6. They have been made living members of th Church by being buried and raised with Christ in baptism; they have been united more intimately with the Church by profession. Therefore, they should go forth as witnesses and instruments of her mission among all people, proclaiming Christ by their life and words.
Called like Saint Francis to rebuild the Church and inspired by his example, let them devote themselves energetically to living in full communion with the pope, bishops, and priests, fostering an open and trusting dialogue of apostolic effectiveness and creativity.

Rule 19. Mindful that they are bearers of peace which must be built up unceasingly, they should seek out ways of unity and fraternal harmony through dialogue, trusting in the presence of the divine seed in everyone and in the transforming power of love and pardon.
Messengers of perfect joy in every circumstance, they should strive to bring joy and hope to others.
Since they are immersed in the resurrection of Christ, which gives true meaning to Sister Death, let them serenely tend toward the ultimate encounter with the Father.

I've cited these two Rules of St. Francis of Assisi approved by Pope Paul VI for Secular Franciscans as a means of a quide for myself to temper what I am going to further say.
I enjoy academic pursuits that challenge my faith. I am in full agreement with John Milton's "Aeropagetica" in regards to never allowing for censorship. It has served the Church well to preserve and investigate the ideas of pagan Rome, so much so that the Emperor Justin the Apostate made it illegal for Christians to teach on paganism because the Christians were able to refute it so well. When Paul was on Areopagus, he quoted the Greek's own poets. For many Christians, quoting Joseph Smith to make a point to Mormons is unorthodox, and yet Dr. Walter Martin did it so well that by his influence there were many who left Mormonism for Evangelical Christianity. So, while I admire academic pursuits, the aspect of full communion with the pope, bishops, and priests is having a true conversion to the truthfulness of the interpretation of the Magesterium.

12.I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters,a by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritualb worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world,c but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.d
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. 6 We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us: prophecy, in proportion to faith; 7 ministry, in ministering; the teacher, in teaching; 8 the exhorter, in exhortation; the giver, in generosity; the leader, in diligence; the compassionate, in cheerfulness.
Marks of the True Christian
9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; 10 love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord.e 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly;f do not claim to be wiser than you are. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God;g for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version, Catholic Edition. 2008 (Ro 12). Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

I've cited the whole passage above because I feel it fits Rule 19. But, I underlined "transformed by the renewing of your minds" because this seems to be where the battle begins. I think it fits Rule 6. St. Francis was really creative in dealing with Al-Kamil when he walked straight across the carpet that was made with the images of crosses. When he wrestled with his flesh, he made several snowpeople and called them his family until his flesh relented. One does not have to be "liberal" to be creative. I, as a person pursuing becoming Franciscan, must abide by the Rule of St. Francis. I guess I am grateful that are unwilling to fight for woman ordination, we had a priest in Nashville who made a comment on YouTube who had to recant on the prompting of Bishop David Choby in the Nashville Register or face serious consequences as laid out in the Code of Canon Law. The priest obviously made a private opinion on the matter, but you cannot really seperate private from public when it comes to being in full communion with the teachings of the Church.

I am just saying. I had to wrestle for some time on the issue of capital punishment when I first became Catholic. But I sought out what I thought was sound apologetic reasons, and eventually I come to embrace the Church's position as it reflects a consistency on the principle of sanctity of human life.

I appreciate your comments. I have thought a lot about this issue. I am sure you recognize that I am merely using it as an example to illustrate a greater point on this thread. If you are interested in how I formed this opinion, you might want to read the thread about women in ministry - Selene and I have discussed the issue a great deal.
As you are well aware the Catholic Church teaches us to follow are conscious on issues we feel strongly about, as long as we are not teaching it as Catholic doctrine. On this issue, I am not even willing to teach it as Christian doctrine, but I still believe it to be true. Finally, if I am wrong, I guess we can all have a nice laugh about it in Heaven.

Duckybill · Apr 17, 2011

Truth said:
Do you believe in these basic Bible truths because you have proven them for yourself? and do you actually understand what you believe? A loving brother and friend of mine sent me a quote the other day, which you might appreciate, or not?

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” - Galileo Galilei

I believe them because they are there and very clear and simple. I notice that you didn't deny that you don't believe in Jesus/God and eternal Hell.

Alethos · Apr 17, 2011

The devil has been destroyed by Jesus in Heb 2:14 and that Jesus was sent to destroy its works 1 John 3:8:

Jesus Christ in his death destroyed the devil (Hebrews 2:14-18). Whatever you or I decide the devil to be, we are told that the purpose of his life was to destroy through his death the devil and his works. This happened on Calvary as expressed in Heb 2:14.

The verse also states the devil is that which has the power of death, which is sin (Romans 7:8-11, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57). And this shows us that ‘the devil’ is a term used for the natural tendency of men to sin. In Hebrew 2:14 it is style “Flesh and Blood”.

Jesus Christ did away with sin in living a life of perfect obedience (Rom 3:22), and finally at the conclusion of his life upon a tree he did away with his sinful nature (Rom 7:18; Job 14:4; 25:4; 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 8:3). In doing so destroyed the "devil" (Heb 2:14,15).

We have a powerful example when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness John 3:14; Num 21:9, Jesus finally put away the power of sin from himself at the closing moments of his life when he said “it is finished” and died the power of death died with him.

John 3:14 and Num 21:9 are inseparable. Jesus refers to himself as a “serpent” should not be overlooked, nor explained away, take heed to it and listen, regardless of how repulsive this may seem to you. Jesus Christ was born with a nature prone to sin and here represented as a serpent, stated in his own words. This was his lot as given to him by His Father and Heb 2:14 required Jesus’ gruesome death, being lifted up like the serpent in the wilderness; he destroyed the power of death, which is sin.

But you referred in your comments its various usages in the Bible. The word devil can vary depending on the context of the passage. For instance the devil is often used of evil rulers or kingdoms: 1 Peter 5:8 (here Peter is quoting Proverbs 20:2; 28:15), and in Revelation 12:9 (quoting from Daniel 7:7, 19-23).

Your questions:

Are you saying that the flesh is 'devilish' or wicked ? Yes, it can be devilish and wicked without divine restraint. Phil 2:5

Are you saying that sin is a spiritual person that lives inside of a physical body? No, sin occurs in the flesh Rom 7:23 "members" means "limb or body part; but is speaking to all flesh i.e the whole physical body is where sin occurs.

Are you saying that sin is more of a principle than a person or power? Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is born out of lust, which is in the flesh James 1:15 although sin can be manifested is various ways depending on circumstances it always finds it source in flesh! and nowhere else.

Are you saying that the whole notion of angelic powers being in conflict with flesh is illogical? Angels by their very nature are divine, pure and holy, like God. "The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all ( i.e. there can be no rebellion against God in Heaven). Bless the Lord, ye His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye His hosts; ye ministers of His, that do his pleasure" (Ps.103:19-21). “Praise him, all his Angels...his hosts" (Ps.148:2) "The angels...are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them (the believers) who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Heb.1:13,14).

Alethos

Duckybill · Apr 18, 2011

Only Satan has to gain by denying his existence and evil works in this world.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (NKJV)
[sup]14 [/sup]For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Duckybill · Apr 18, 2011

Truth said:
The devil has been destroyed by Jesus in Heb 2:14 and that Jesus was sent to destroy its works 1 John 3:8:

No, the devil has not been destroyed.

Hebrews 2:14 (NASB)
[sup]14 [/sup]Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

Take note of the word "MIGHT". Jesus rendered the devil powerless in that he gave His people power over Satan. "MIGHT" meaning IF we use our power over Satan then Satan is powerless over us. But as can easily be seen the world is filled with evil because most do not recognize Satan, including you.

James 4:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

God warned us, but most are still not aware of Satan's activities.

1 Peter 5:8-9 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. [sup]9 [/sup]Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

rjp34652@yahoo.com · Apr 18, 2011

Truth:
You have made several points with which I disagree.....
Additionally, your scripture references often have nothing at all to do with your preceeding statement. As such they are misleading.

Truth said:
The devil has been destroyed by Jesus in Heb 2:14 and that Jesus was sent to destroy its works

The devil is not destroyed by Christ in Heb 2:14. The reference is to the power of death not the devil. The 'power' being thus referenced is the effect of sin. Death is the consequence of sin. It is the consequence which Christ has brought to nothing in this passage, not the temptor.

Truth said:

The verse also states the devil is that which has the power of death, which is sin (Romans 7:8-11, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57). And this shows us that ‘the devil’ is a term used for the natural tendency of men to sin. In Hebrew 2:14 it is style “Flesh and Blood”.

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Romans 7:8-11 doesn't say that satan=power of death. Neither is there any scholarly interpretation that suggests it. The devil is not the tendency to sin. You are extrapolating terms and meanings that are not even suggested by these passages.

Truth said:

Jesus Christ did away with sin in living a life of perfect obedience (Rom 3:22), and finally at the conclusion of his life upon a tree he did away with his sinful nature (Rom 7:18; Job 14:4; 25:4; 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 8:3). In doing so destroyed the "devil" (Heb 2:14,15).

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This is the biggest error you make, that the flesh is sinful. It isn't. The Bible doesn't say it is. If it is, then Christ's death would be meaningless as the Bible states that God requires a spotless sacrifice; that is to say innocent and clean in body as well as in obediance.

Christ did not 'do away with his sinful nature', because he never had one. The sinful nature in references you quote is that of unregenerate humanity.
Neither on the cross nor in our 'doing away with the sinful nature' is satan destroyed.....merely it's works....the consequences of sin...meaning death.

Truth said:

Your questions:
Are you saying that the flesh is 'devilish' or wicked ? Yes, it can be devilish and wicked without divine restraint. Phil 2:5

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Phil 2:5 doesn't say that. Doesn't even come close. It speak of having the mind of Christ. How do you get a definition of the condition of the flesh by that? You cannot, since the passage speaks only of the mind.

Truth said:

sin occurs in the flesh Rom 7:23 "members" means "limb or body part; but is speaking to all flesh i.e the whole physical body is where sin occurs.

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Again, flesh is not sin. Romans 7:23 speaks of the war of sin WITHIN THE FLESH.

Truth said:

Are you saying that sin is more of a principle than a person or power? Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is born out of lust, which is in the flesh James 1:15 although sin can be manifested is various ways depending on circumstances it always finds it source in flesh! and nowhere else.

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This is a repetition of your false assumption that the flesh is the source of sin. The Bible doesn't say that at all. Neither is it found in any scholarly interpretation that I've consulted.

The mechanism is thus:
The flesh was created perfect in the garden and remains so to this day.
It was the heart or will of man that was corrupted in the garden and it is the human will or heart which USES the flesh to break God's law.

Satan tempts man to break God's law.
Man tends to be like minded with the temptation and therefore follows the lust of temptation into breaking the law.
Breaking the law results in all sorts of negative consequences, not least of which is the breaking of fellowship with God.

When man yields to sin he does a lot more than break the rules, he yields himself to the authority of sin.
Sin therefore becomes the predominant power in the life of the man.
The purpose of satanic temptation, therefore, is to obtain authority over the man thereby stealing the authority of man over himself and nature/the world.

Christ died on the cross to break the power of sin; the authority of it as well as it's consequences.
This is done by eliminating the animosity of God toward man because of sin.
Christ dies as a substitute for man and enables God to enter the life of the believer to combat the 'power of sin' He finds there.
For the believer, the war against sin BEGINS at the cross.

The death of Christ on the cross therefore accomplishes two things;
#1 the blood provides the atonement of sacrifical death God requires - the blood is for God
#2 the cross provides the method of breaking the power of sin - the cross is for us

In the book of Romans, St. Paul teaches about the war between the human will, which tends to yield to lust, and the spirit, which tends to yield to obediance.
"Wretched man that I am," Paul says as he expresses his awareness of the struggle.

In the end, it is a battle of the will. Christ died so that the Holy Spirit could engage satan where it does it's worst work, in the human heart.

Alethos · Apr 18, 2011

[email protected] said:
Truth:
You have made several points with which I disagree.....
Additionally, your scripture references often have nothing at all to do with your preceeding statement. As such they are misleading.

The devil is not destroyed by Christ in Heb 2:14. The reference is to the power of death not the devil. The 'power' being thus referenced is the effect of sin. Death is the consequence of sin. It is the consequence which Christ has brought to nothing in this passage, not the temptor.

Romans 7:8-11 doesn't say that satan=power of death. Neither is there any scholarly interpretation that suggests it. The devil is not the tendency to sin. You are extrapolating terms and meanings that are not even suggested by these passages.

This is the biggest error you make, that the flesh is sinful. It isn't. The Bible doesn't say it is. If it is, then Christ's death would be meaningless as the Bible states that God requires a spotless sacrifice; that is to say innocent and clean in body as well as in obediance.

Christ did not 'do away with his sinful nature', because he never had one. The sinful nature in references you quote is that of unregenerate humanity.
Neither on the cross nor in our 'doing away with the sinful nature' is satan destroyed.....merely it's works....the consequences of sin...meaning death.

Phil 2:5 doesn't say that. Doesn't even come close. It speak of having the mind of Christ. How do you get a definition of the condition of the flesh by that? You cannot, since the passage speaks only of the mind.

Again, flesh is not sin. Romans 7:23 speaks of the war of sin WITHIN THE FLESH.

This is a repetition of your false assumption that the flesh is the source of sin. The Bible doesn't say that at all. Neither is it found in any scholarly interpretation that I've consulted.

The mechanism is thus:
The flesh was created perfect in the garden and remains so to this day.
It was the heart or will of man that was corrupted in the garden and it is the human will or heart which USES the flesh to break God's law.

Satan tempts man to break God's law.
Man tends to be like minded with the temptation and therefore follows the lust of temptation into breaking the law.
Breaking the law results in all sorts of negative consequences, not least of which is the breaking of fellowship with God.

When man yields to sin he does a lot more than break the rules, he yields himself to the authority of sin.
Sin therefore becomes the predominant power in the life of the man.
The purpose of satanic temptation, therefore, is to obtain authority over the man thereby stealing the authority of man over himself and nature/the world.

Christ died on the cross to break the power of sin; the authority of it as well as it's consequences.
This is done by eliminating the animosity of God toward man because of sin.
Christ dies as a substitute for man and enables God to enter the life of the believer to combat the 'power of sin' He finds there.
For the believer, the war against sin BEGINS at the cross.

The death of Christ on the cross therefore accomplishes two things;
#1 the blood provides the atonement of sacrifical death God requires - the blood is for God
#2 the cross provides the method of breaking the power of sin - the cross is for us

In the book of Romans, St. Paul teaches about the war between the human will, which tends to yield to lust, and the spirit, which tends to yield to obediance.
"Wretched man that I am," Paul says as he expresses his awareness of the struggle.

In the end, it is a battle of the will. Christ died so that the Holy Spirit could engage satan where it does it's worst work, in the human heart.

I will today post a new topic on Sin and Death.

Please don’t refer to the scholar’s rjp, study to show "yourself" approved...that you may rightly handle the Word of God. 2 Tim 2:15. The scholars are exactly that, scholars, because they consult their many philosophies of men, and as you know have many books. 1 Cor 1:20-27

Rather than pull apart your thoughts which in many ways can be seen like dissecting a lab rat, often counterproductive, a new Topic is required and you are more than welcome to attend.

Alethos

p.s I did notice in your first comment you didnt mention why the devil is mentioned in Heb 2:14? Maybe you can think about why the Apostle decided to define the power, as the devil?

aspen · Apr 18, 2011

You know......this has all already been argued about on the other thread.....remember?

Alethos · Apr 18, 2011

aspen said:
You know......this has all already been argued about on the other thread.....remember?

Please visit here to see Sin & Death explained from the Bible

Aspen, you are also welcome.

Alethos

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