The Church is not prepared for what is to come.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The scripture below dosent even imply or suggest a pre-trib rapture, its a fabricated man made fairy tale
For the record, you brought up this passage, I did not. And I don't cite it as a proof text for a pre-trib rapture.

Much love!
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you thinking this is meant to apply here on earth during our terrestrial lives?

Much love!
The verse below is talking about the church that will overcome during the tribulation "On Earth", the church that wont be raptured away from the tribulation as you teach and suggest

You create a distraction from this truth, trying to replace the reward found in the Eternal, before the overcoming on earth "Error"

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the reason so many Christians will be deceived by the government's and religious leaders in the final hours... You are associating the state of the church with the political environment. They bear no relation to one another.
IMHO, if any Christian believer is deceived then 2 things happened.
1. The pastor did not teach them how not to be deceived by obeying what His Word says
And
2. The individual put too much trust in the pastor to teach them without studying scripture for themselves and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them into the knowledge of His Truth.
Obeying what the Word commanded.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and Truth7t7

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The verse below is talking about the church that will overcome during the tribulation "On Earth", the church that wont be raptured away from the tribulation as you teach and suggest

You create a distraction from this truth, trying to replace the reward found in the Eternal, before the overcoming on earth "Error"

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
I see what you are saying. It would be easier if you were more direct and less, what should I say, derisive?

You are saying "overcometh" is something that will only happen during the "tribulation"?

Much love!
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see what you are saying. It would be easier if you were more direct and less, what should I say, derisive?

You are saying "overcometh" is something that will only happen during the "tribulation"?

Much love!
You suggest in error that the church will escape the hour of earth's temptation by being raptured to heaven away from this temptation?

Scripture clearly teaches the church will be on earth and divinely protected by God, and instructed to enter the dwelling until the hour of temptation is past, just like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For the record, you brought up this passage, I did not. And I don't cite it as a proof text for a pre-trib rapture.

Much love!
Revelation 3:10 is cited as a standard verse, in claiming a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven by those following dispensationalism, are you new to the subject of eschatology?
 

Earburner

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2019
6,469
1,539
113
74
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well teh chruch will not be herwe for the 7 years of tribulation or the mark of the beast. I do not need discernment- we have the bible that tells us this. So we need not discern, but rejoice that God has delivere4d us from that wrath to come.
I beg your pardon, but you most definitely need discernment!
Come down from your high horse, with your secret rapture theory!
Our deliverance shall be in the SAME DAY "when" Jesus is REVEALED from Heaven in Flaming FIRE.

As for "flaming fire" please notice my quoted words of "same day", "revealed", "fire" and "when" in the following verse:

Flaming Fire- Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the [that] day when the Son of man is revealed.

Now compare that with 2 Thes. 1:7-10, paying particuliar attention to the word "when":
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that [same] day.

Q. WHEN does Jesus deliver His Saints?
A. In the SAME day that He destroys the wicked. It' a simultaneous event!
 
  • Like
Reactions: NewMusic

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You suggest in error that the church will escape the hour of earth's temptation by being raptured to heaven away from this temptation?
You need to get me separated in your mind from others. YOU were the one who brought up this verse. I've asked a couple of questions, that you don't seem to want to answer, just the same, you brought up this verse. We can talk about something else.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 3:10 is cited as a standard verse, in claiming a pre-trib rapture of the church to heaven by those following dispensationalism, are you new to the subject of eschatology?
Try not to assume my point of view.

And Revelation 4:1 is cited also, but not by me.

I think you are assuming my arguments, and then arguing against what you assume I think.

Much love!
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You need to get me separated in your mind from others. YOU were the one who brought up this verse. I've asked a couple of questions, that you don't seem to want to answer, just the same, you brought up this verse. We can talk about something else.

Much love!
Ok you dont see Revelation 3:10 as a pre-trib rapture as dispensationalism does, then we agree

We will talk about something else, still waiting for your scripture in support of a pre-trib rapture?
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Try not to assume my point of view.

And Revelation 4:1 is cited also, but not by me.

I think you are assuming my arguments, and then arguing against what you assume I think.

Much love!
I am posting to the standard claims of a pre-trib rapture within dispensationalism and not your belief, still waiting for your scripture in support of a pre-trib rapture?
 

David H.

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
2,465
1,893
113
55
michigan
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It saddens me that I've yet to find anyone who can hold to a real debate on that topic!

Just like you start off with the insults, I can't find anyone to debate rapture timing who doesn't dissolve into insults and fallacies.

It's too bad!

Do not take this the wrong way, But perhaps if you would not be so easily offended by those who disagree with you, You could have these debates. I Have tried showing you from scripture my Pre wrath views, How My timelines work, But it is you who get defensive and offended thus hindering dialogue.

I Disagree with @Truth7t7, But we can still have dialog about eschatology and respect one another's positions. You should try this sometime. Instead of trying to convert everyone to your own opinion, just present your opinion and let the facts speak for themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

David H.

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
2,465
1,893
113
55
michigan
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well teh chruch will not be herwe for the 7 years of tribulation or the mark of the beast. I do not need discernment- we have the bible that tells us this. So we need not discern, but rejoice that God has delivere4d us from that wrath to come.

What if you are wrong? Not saying this as an insult, But would it not be better to know all the ways the events "could" unfold so that you are not caught blindsided?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Truth7t7

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,760
3,215
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do not take this the wrong way, But perhaps if you would not be so easily offended by those who disagree with you, You could have these debates. I Have tried showing you from scripture my Pre wrath views, How My timelines work, But it is you who get defensive and offended thus hindering dialogue.

I Disagree with @Truth7t7, But we can still have dialog about eschatology and respect one another's positions. You should try this sometime. Instead of trying to convert everyone to your own opinion, just present your opinion and let the facts speak for themselves.
Well said, it might come to disagreement so what, no need in resorting to hyper sensitivity and personal attacks

A pre-trib rapture is a fairy tale, that's directed at a teaching, not a person

Preterism in 70AD fulfillment is fairy tale, that's directed at a teaching not a person

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is fairy tale, that's directed at a teaching not a person
 
Last edited:

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,280
160
63
87
Joinville
Faith
Christian
Country
Brazil
You and many others who hold to the belief systems of "church-ianity" are in for a terrible rude awakening, and will not escape.

As for "flaming fire" please notice my quoted words in the following verse, "same day" and "revealed":

Flaming Fire- Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Now compare that with 2 Thes. 1:7-10, paying particuliar attention to the word "when":
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that [same] day.
Q. When is when?
A. When Jesus is revealed from Heaven....in flaming fire...
When He shall come to be Glorified in His saints....
See Luke 17:29-30 again.


Yes! And what I quoted and said to you, is the Word of God, "understand"?
Evidently not! Because if you did, you wouldn't have replied in the manner that you did!
"Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have." Luke 8:16-18


All of God's dreams, visions, parables and prophecy are subject to interpretation. Whether, that interpretation is performed by our own analytical and logical mind or by the Holy Spirit of God within us, each conclude two entirely different situations. The former is contrived, whereas latter is revealed.

Since the beginning JESUS left very clear, saying: Luke 12:v.49
49 I am come to send FIRE on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?


You posted a video -post #47 - of the vulcan in La Palma, and LITERALLY suggest it as being similar to the return of JESUS "in flame fire in conjuction with 2 Thes. 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:1-13". The question is that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. That said, what you literally interpret and write according your "own analytical and logical mind", its effect is for to death, everyone that come to believe in your "own analytical and logical mind" spiritually dies, you perform it as a killer of souls sowing your tares among the believers, the God's people.

What all readers can see in all posts of yours, beginning by your post #47, you only interpret Scriptures by the letter and according human perspective, not according GOD's perspective, it even as you say, it is by your own analytical and logical mind.

Not me, but the Word Judges you -the Word is GOD- and JESUS said: John 12:v.47-48:

47...I came not to Judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that Judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall Judge him in the last Day. -->Well, the last Day, the LORD's Day, that is the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium, it has arrived.

To ALL

GOD is a devouring/ consuming FIRE.
The Word is GOD. I am walking within this FIRE but I am not burned, I'm not even burned. The question is: Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah 33:v.10 to 14

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off (Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near (Jewish people), acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

The punishment of the world of Devil had a predetermined time to begin, and it has already begun because the time arrived, and this punishment will be for ever, it will never stop, but never. Woe of the world of Devil.

 
Last edited:

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,383
6,295
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
IMHO, if any Christian believer is deceived then 2 things happened.
1. The pastor did not teach them how not to be deceived by obeying what His Word says
And
2. The individual put too much trust in the pastor to teach them without studying scripture for themselves and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them into the knowledge of His Truth.
Obeying what the Word commanded.
In the very last days, (not yet but soon) what we see here...
KJV Revelation 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
... Can be summarized by some very important points...
  • This beast is a political system, as are all beasts in prophecy.
  • The political system is in league with the church in enforcing worship.
  • The particular type of worship is in harmony with that of the first beast... The Papacy.
  • The second beast is a democracy. It speaks and appeals to the people... All them that dwell upon the earth... That they should make the image.
The people, obviously either in fear of some impending disaster or personal safety, agree that such coercion to worship in accordance to papal dogmas is appropriate. This is Protestantism apostatizing and clasping hands with the Papacy in order to form a new global medieval tyranny. The mark of the Papacy is but the only natural conclusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

NewMusic

Active Member
Sep 13, 2021
239
89
28
43
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do not take this the wrong way, But perhaps if you would not be so easily offended by those who disagree with you, You could have these debates. I Have tried showing you from scripture my Pre wrath views, How My timelines work, But it is you who get defensive and offended thus hindering dialogue.

I Disagree with @Truth7t7, But we can still have dialog about eschatology and respect one another's positions. You should try this sometime. Instead of trying to convert everyone to your own opinion, just present your opinion and let the facts speak for themselves.

Hey David, I have not seen your outline, but it seems from the paragraph above that you believe the church goes through the whole ordeal (post tribber), which is what I teach people.

Am I correct in my thinking about your position?

After I get an answer, I will ask you a question, or set of questions. :)
 

David H.

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
2,465
1,893
113
55
michigan
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hey David, I have not seen your outline, but it seems from the paragraph above that you believe the church goes through the whole ordeal (post tribber), which is what I teach people.

Am I correct in my thinking about your position?

After I get an answer, I will ask you a question, or set of questions.

I Am a pre wrather. I do not see the great tribulation as the wrath of God, but as the wrath of Satan, mixed with plagues from God. I See the Rapture occurring simultaneous to the two witnesses being resurrected. Which is then followed by the day of the Lord and Jacob's trouble, the time of the Wrath of God being poured out. This would make me more of a "mid tribber" than a Post tribber.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is Prophesied to happen next, will be so sudden, shocking and world changing, that people will have trouble readjusting to a world quite different to what we know today. Isaiah 48:3, Jeremiah 25:30-32
There will be a choice; become a member of the One World Government, or migrate to the holy Land and join the new Christian nation of Beulah. Isaiah 35, Isaiah 66:7-24, Isaiah 62:1-12, Ezekiel 34:1-16, Romans 9:24-26, +

As you say: the Church is not prepared. Mostly they have been taught and believe false ideas like being 'raptured' away from it all. Not going to happen, we must stand firm in our faith thru it all.
In the USA, the majority of the population still identifies as Christian, even if only marginally so. Combine that with the highest rates of gun ownership in the world and you have the perfect makings of civil warfare.
The political left, having a strong foothold in government vocally disregard the threat, saying that any insurrection is doomed to "nuclear" failure, without regarding the truth that tactical nuclear weapons are politically indiscriminate.

We don't see anything representing the USA in eschatological scripture unless this nation has become representative of Babylon the great, so I'm inclined to believe that my nation will be effectively destroyed by warfare before or during the rise of the antichrist (but we certainly do bear some resemblance to ancient Rome and possibly are the most representative of "spiritual Babylon" in this moment of time.)
 

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,280
160
63
87
Joinville
Faith
Christian
Country
Brazil
Revelation 11:v.15 to 19

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD (world of Devil) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were (will be) angry, and GOD's wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth. (The everlasting chastisement was predetermined to happen in this Day, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, and the punishments have already started, and will NEVER stop, yeah, never more, the current punishment is for ever and ever).

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.