Doctrines of Grace

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Iconoclast

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In the decree of election, God doth not fix conditions of eternal life, and choose such as will fulfil them, but he sets apart particular persons to be infallibly made partakers of eternal salvation.

1. Particular persons, as hath been just stated, have their names written in the book of life, Luke 10:20; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 21:27; Isa 4:3, etc.

2. Some men are represented as particularly and personally chosen to everlasting life, Eph 1:4-6; Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; John 10:3,26-27; John 13:18; John 17:9; John 6:37; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:10; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:13,23; Rom 11:5,7; 1 Thess 1:4; 1 Thess 5:9; 2Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Pet 2:9; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:10.

3. The infallible and unalterable connection between election, redemption, and eternal salvation, necessarily requires that those very persons, who are actually saved, must have been elected to obtain that salvation, Ps 33:11; Isa 14:24,27; Isa 46:10; Rom 8:28-39; Rom 9:11- 13,23; John 10:15-16,27-29. God's election of these particular persons is absolute, proceeding wholly and only from his own infinitely wise and sovereign will and good pleasure; and altogether independent on their foreseen faith or good works.


1. The Scripture represents his election of them as merely depending on his own will, and as purposed in himself, Luke 12:32; Luke 10:21; Matt 11:25-26; Rom 9:11-13,16,18; Rom 11:5-6; Eph 1:5,9,11; Deut 7:8; Deut 9:4; Deut 10:15; 2 Tim 1:9.

2. God, who chooses them, is absolutely sovereign in his disposal of his favours, Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Dan 4:35; Isa 57:17-18; Isa 43:24-25; Rom 5:20- 21; Rom 9:15-16,18,20-21; Ps 115:3; Ps 135:6; Job 33:13.

3. He could foresee no moral goodness in fallen and corrupted men, as moving Him to elect them to everlasting happiness, Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ps 5:9-10; Ps 14:1-4; Isa 59:1-15; Rom 1:21-32; Rom 3:10-19,23; Rom 5:12; Rom 8:7-8; Titus 3:3; Jer 13:23; Jer 17:9; Eph 2:1-3; Eph 4:17- 19; Job 14:4; Job 15:14,16; Matt 15:19.

4. No true faith or holy obedience, but what God himself works in them, can be found in any man, Phil 1:29; Phil 2:13; Eph 2:4-10; 2 Thess 1:11; James 1:17; 1 Cor 4:7; 2 Cor 3:5; Isa 26:12; Ps 57:2. Now God's own work in time can never be the condition of his choosing us before time to eternal life.

5. Our faith and holiness are the fruits of God's election of us; and hence can never be the cause or condition of it, Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 1:4-5; 2 Thess 2:13; John 8:47; John 10:26-27; Eph 1:4; 1 Pet 1:2.

6. Our faith and holiness are properly parts of our salvation largely taken, and evidences that we are in the state and begun possession of it. And hence they are not so much as proper conditions of salvation, but means of receiving or improving it, and of preparing for the full enjoyment of it, Titus 3:5-7; Rom 7:4; Rom 6:14. How absurd then to suppose them conditions of God's electing us to that salvation!

7. If God's election of men to everlasting life depended on his foresight of their faith and good works, his redeeming love could be no such distinguished favour as the Scripture represents it, John 3:16; 1 John 3:1; 1 John 4:9-10,19; Jer 3:19; Jer 31:3; Job 35:7; Job 41:11; Deut 10:11; 1 Cor 1:29; 1 Cor 4:7; Eph 1:6; Eph 2:7; Rom 9:15-16,18; Rom 5:8,20-21.

8. So far are our good works from being the conditions upon which God elected us to everlasting life, that the making them procuring causes of our salvation is represented as altogether eversive of the grace of God therein manifested, Rom 4:4; Rom 11:6; Rom 9:16; Gal 2:21; Gal 5:2,4.

Men are chosen by God to everlasting life in Jesus Christ, as their representing Head.

1. Our election is expressly represented as in him, as our new covenant Head, and the great mean of the execution of that decree, Eph 1:4; Eph 3:11; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2.

2. The effects of our election are all enjoyed in Christ—as redemption, Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 1 Cor 1:30; Rom 3:24-25;—effectual calling, Phil 3:14;— justification, Isa 45:24-25; 1 Cor 1:30; 2 Cor 5:21.—adoption; Gal 3:26;—regeneration and sanctification, Eph 2:10; 1 Cor 1:2; Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 1:30.—preservation in grace, Jude 1; Col 3:3; John 14:19; John 10:28; John 15:5,7,—spiritual comfort, John 14:18; 2 Cor 1:5; 2 Thess 2:16-17;—and glorification, Rom 8:15-18; Eph 2:6; Isa 45:17,25; Isa 60:19; Col 3:3-4.

3. Without supposing our election to everlasting life in Christ as our Head, God's putting our stock of holiness and happiness in Adam, as our covenant-head, could not be so clearly vindicated, Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21-22.—Nor does it appear, how we could have been recovered, quickened, justified, or sanctified by him, if we had not been chosen in him, Rom 3:10-26; John 5:25-26; Acts 3:15,26; Rom 8:1-2; 1 John 5:12; John 14:19; Col 1:19; Col 2:9-10,13; Eph 2:10; Eph 3:17,19; Heb 2:12-16; 1 Cor 6:17; Titus 3:5.—

But, though we were chosen in Christ as our Head, yet his mediatorial office and work are not the cause of our election, but only the cause of that salvation which we were chosen to obtain.


1. It hath been proved, that our election proceeds from the mere sovereign will of God.—It was of his mere free favour, that any men were elected to everlasting life. It was of his mere good pleasure, that such particular persons, and not others, were elected, Matt 11:25-26 Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11-23; 1 Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 1:25-30.

2. While Christ himself is, in God's electing purpose, chosen as our Head, his mediation is appointed in it, as the mean of executing it, and as the purchasing, procuring, and applying cause of our salvation therein decreed, Isa 42:1-7; Isa 49:1-6; 1 Pet 1:18-21; John 3:16-18; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10.

3. Christ died for men considered as sinful in themselves, but loved of God, and elected to everlasting life,—that they might obtain it in a way consistent with his honour, Matt 1:21; John 10:10,14-15; John 15:13; Eph 5:2,23,25; Isa 49:3; Isa 42:21.

Of God, the Author, Object, and End of All Religion;
John Brown
 

Iconoclast

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Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11-23; 1 Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 1:25-30.
2. While Christ himself is, in God's electing purpose, chosen as our Head, his mediation is appointed in it, as the mean of executing it, and as the purchasing, procuring, and applying cause of our salvation therein decreed, Isa 42:1-7; Isa 49:1-6; 1 Pet 1:18-21; John 3:16-18; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10.

3. Christ died for men considered as sinful in themselves, but loved of God, and elected to everlasting life,—that they might obtain it in a way consistent with his honour, Matt 1:21; John 10:10,14-15; John 15:13; Eph 5:2,23,25; Isa 49:3; Isa 42:21. Men were thus elected in Christ to everlasting life from all eternity.

1. It hath been proved, that God decreed all things from all eternity, Acts 15:18.

2. Christ was set up as the mediatorial Head of elect men from all eternity, Ps 2:7-8; 1 Pet 1:20; Prov 8:23-31; Mic 5:2; John 17:24.

3. Elect men were foreknown and chosen to salvation before the foundation of the world, Rom 8:29; Rom 9:11,23; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; Matt 25:34; Rev 13:8; Jer 31:3; 2 Thess 2:13.—How daring then to give God the lie, and contend, that he elects them only in time, at their death, etc. as their behavior deserves!

And how absurd to assert, that the beginning from which the Thessalonians were chosen, means the beginning of the gospel period.—It is certain, they did not hear the gospel, till not a few years after our Saviour's ascension, and the first erection of the gospel church, Acts 2-17.


God's purpose of election is unchangeable,—none who are elected can fall short of the grace or glory decreed for them, and none that are not elected can obtain it.

1. No unforeseen reason of alteration can occur; nor can any change happen in his own love, power, wisdom, or equity, Acts 15:18; Ps 147:5; Isa 46:10; Mal 3:6; James 1:17.

2. The Scripture peremptorily declares, that all those very persons that were elected, shall obtain that salvation to which they were chosen, Rom 8:28-39; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Thess 5:9-10; 1 Thess 4:17; 1 Thess 5:23-24; Eph 1:4; John 6:37; John 17:9,12; Rom 11:7; Acts 2:47; Acts 13:48; 2 Tim 2:19; Isa 46:10; Isa 49:14-15; Isa 45:17; Isa 54:8-10; Rev 3:4-5; Matt 25:34; Luke 10:20; John 10:27-29; Heb 6:17-20.—But to anticipate objections, it must be observed,

1. That men whose names were never written in the book of life, may have that plainly manifested, Rev 22:19.

2. Men may be really blotted out of the book of the living on earth,—out of God's comfortable providential care,—out of the number of the visible members of his church,—or out of temporal life, Ps 69:28; Ps 139:16; Ps 87:6; Ezek 13:9; Neh 7:64; Exod 32:32, without any blotting them out of God's purpose of election to everlasting life.

3. By frequent and vigorous actings of faith,—by an holy conversation,—and by much impartial self-examination, we may render our election more certainly evident to our own souls, while we thus enjoy the fruits of it, 2 Pet 1:4-10; 1 Thess 1:4-5; Eph 1:3-9.—But nothing can render it more certain and fixed in itself, as a purpose of the unchangeable God, Job 23:13; Ps 33:11; Isa 14:24,27; Isa 46:10; Rom 9:11; Heb 6:17-18.

God's decree of election may, therefore, be thus described: An act, in which the eternal, unchangeable, infinitely wise, gracious, powerful, faithful, and sovereign God, intending to manifest to men the glory of his own perfections, particularly of his power, wisdom, sovereignty, and free grace,
Rom 11:33; Eph 3:10; Matt 11:26; Matt 20:15-16; Rom 9:15-16,18-23; Rom 11:35-36; Eph 1:5-6; 1 Pet 2:9.—hath in his love foreknown and fore-chosen to the enjoyment of eternal salvation and all its benefits, Rom 8:29-30; 1 Pet 1:2; 2 Tim 2:19; John 3:16; Rom 5:8,21; Rom 9:13; 1 John 4:9-10; Isa 45:17; 1 Cor 1:30.—some persons of mankind,—the smaller number,—and whom he pleased,— as permitted, or to be permitted to fall into sin and misery, from which they could not recover themselves, Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; 2 Tim 2:19; John 10:26-28; John 13:18; John 17:6,9,12; John 3:16; John 15:19; Rom 8:29; Rom 9:16,18; Rom 5:8,10.—and hath predestinated them unto fellowship with, conformity to, adoption through, and joint heirship and eternal happiness in Christ, Eph 1:3- 5; Rom 8:29.—and without being, in the least, moved to it, by any foreseen qualities or acts of theirs, natural or moral,—hath of his own mere will, sovereign grace, and good pleasure, Matt 11:25-26; Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11,15-16; Eph 1:5-6; 2 Tim 1:9; 1 Cor 1:26-28.—from all eternity, Matt 25:34; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8.—chosen them in Christ as their Head, Prov 8:23,31; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9.—in infinite and compassion hath unalterably ordained and appointed them to be partakers of eternal salvation, life, and happiness through him, Rom 9:11,15-16,18,23; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:19; Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 5:9-10; 1 Thess 4:17; Isa 45:17; Rom 11:29.—and hath inscribed their names in his book of life, Luke 10:20; Rev 3:5; Rev 17:8; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 21:27; Phil 4:3; Isa 4:3.—thus distinguishing them from the rest of mankind, who are left to perish in their sinfulness and misery, 1 Cor 4:7; Rom 9:11-13; Eph 1:4.—and hath in that same wise and unchangeable counsel, appointed the mediation of Christ, an interest in his righteousness, effectual calling, faith, and holiness, as means of their obtaining and improving that eternal life,—that so his inflexible justice and infinite mercy may harmoniously shine forth therein, John 3:16-17; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10; John 10:10- 11,15,26-29; John 17:4,6,9; Eph 1:4; Eph 5:2,23-27; Col 1:19; Col 2:3,9-13; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:10,19; Isa 45:17,22,24-25; Acts 13:48; 2 Thess 2:13; Rom 4:16; Mark 16:16; Heb 11:6; Heb 12:14
 
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Iconoclast

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Objection I. "Such a scheme of election renders God a respecter of persons, contrary to Acts 10:34; Job 34:11,19; Deut 10:17-18; 2 Chron 19:7; Col 3:24-25; Rom 2:11; 1 Pet 1:17."

Answer 1. It no more represents him as a respecter of persons than his actual saving of some men, and not of any devils, and his giving to some temporal privileges or eternal salvation, which he doth not bestow on others as deserving.

2. In his purpose of election, God shews no respect to persons on account of their being Jews or Gentiles, poor or rich, great or small, in the world, which is the meaning of these texts, but acts from his own sovereign love and free grace.

3. If God should choose or reprobate, save or damn men, as their free will is pleased to exert itself, then, indeed, he would be a respecter of persons. Objection II. "In the declarations of the gospel, which are an extract of God's purpose of election, eternal salvation is suspended on our faith, sincere obedience, and final perseverance in holiness, Mark 16:16; John 3:16,18,36; Rev 22:14; Rev 2:7,11,17,26-28; Rev 3:5,12,21; Gal 6:9; Matt 24:13; Rom 2:7,10; Isa 1:19; Isa 3:10."

Answer 1. Not one of these declarations represents God's electing decree in the conditions of its establishment, but merely exhibits the connection fixed in it between the different fruits of it, or the parts and degrees of salvation.

2. Faith, sincere obedience, and perseverance in holiness, are not proper conditions on which our eternal happiness is suspended; but being necessary fruits of election, means of, and preparations for happiness, they characterize the persons who have been elected and shall be glorified, John 10:27- 29; Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 1:4-5; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2; Eph 1:4; Rom 8:29-30.

Objection III. "An absolute, unconditional, and unchangeable election of particular persons to eternal happiness, enervates and renders altogether unprofitable the whole preaching and ordinances of the gospel, with all the good endeavours of mankind, and encourages them to sloth and wickedness,—for, if they be elected, they will certainly be saved, do what they will; and if they be not elected they will not be saved, let them do what they can."

Answer 1. As in this decree the means of happiness are fixed along with, and inseparably from the end, it is highly absurd to contend, that the fixing the end will render the means unnecessary or unprofitable.

2. Even in the common affairs of life, they who believe that God hath unalterably foreordained all things which come to pass, are as diligent in their lawful employments, and as careful to provide and use food, raiment, houses, medicine, etc. as others who do not.

3. No man hath any reason to expect eternal happiness, but in the way of a diligent attendance on, and improvement of the ordinances of the gospel, public, private, and secret, according to his capacity and opportunity,—and of earnest and persevering endeavours to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord, Rom 10:17; Isa 55:1-7; Matt 7:7,13- 14; Matt 6:33, Luke 13:24; Prov 8:17,34-36; 2 Pet 1:3-11; Heb 11:6; Heb 12:14; 1 Cor 15:58; 2 Cor 7:1.

4. No man can have any evidence of his being elected by God, without an active study of holiness in all manner of conversation, 2 Pet 1:3-10; 2 Tim 2:19; Eph 1:4; Col 1:22; 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2.

5. Though our diligent attendance on gospel ordinances, our faith, repentance, or new obedience, cannot, in the least, promote God's making choice of us, and electing us to eternal life, as that was fixed long before we existed,—yet they mightily promote the execution of his electing purpose in our actual enjoyment of all the benefits of that salvation to which we were, from eternity, elected, Phil 2:12-13; 1 Cor 9:24-27; 1 Cor 15:58; Rom 5:1-5; Ps 19:11; Ps 84:7,11-12; Job 17:9; Prov 4:18; 2 Tim 4:7-8; Rev 3:7,12,21.

6. It is impossible for men cordially to believe the giving, the redeeming, the electing love of God, without being thereby delightfully constrained, and effectually animated to an earnest care of their salvation, and an active study of faith and holiness. Nor are we, the friends of unconditional election, afraid to compare practices with our opponents when they please, if they will but admit the exceeding broad law of God, in both its tables, to be the rule and standard of judgment, 1 Thess 1:3-10; Gal 2:19-20; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:19; 1 Cor 15:10; 1 Thess 2:1-10.
 

Iconoclast

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Objection IV. "An unconditional unalterable election of particular persons of mankind to everlasting life, is inconsistent with the wisdom, goodness, and integrity of God."

Answer 1. If God, in providence, bring particular persons of mankind to everlasting life, it is but absurd blasphemy to rail at his fixed election of them to it in his eternal purpose, as if that were contrary to his nature.

2. If it be consistent with the perfections of God to choose particular angels, and render them eternally happy, how can it be inconsistent with them, that some particular men should be elected and rendered eternally happy?

3. Not an unconditional, but a conditional election of men is manifestly inconsistent with, and disgraceful to God's wisdom, goodness, and integrity. His wisdom is infinitely more brightly displayed in that election which, without hurting a single creature, infallibly secures the salvation of thousands of millions, Rev 7:9, than in that which leaves matters so loose and undetermined, that Christ may die for all men,—intercede to his uttermost for them, and bestow all his ordinances upon them, and the Holy Ghost, with all his might, strive with each of them to no purpose,—their whole happiness depending on the proper exertions of their free will, a carnal mind, enmity against God, a heart deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.—It is infinitely more kind and gracious, unalterably to purpose to exert his almighty power, and other perfections, in order effectually to bestow that grace and glory, which are necessary to make them for ever holy and happy, upon unnumbered millions, than merely to resolve to give all men an infinitely improbable, nay impossible chance of being happy,—that is, to prepare happiness for them, upon condition that their desperately wicked heart convert itself to believe the gospel, love God, and persevere till death in all holy obedience to him; and meanwhile scarcely give the hundredth part of them the smallest hint of his proposals.—God in his word hath candidly declared, that of the many who are called by the gospel, few are chosen, and that few find the way that leadeth to eternal life, while many walk in the broad way which leadeth to destruction, Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; Matt 7:13-14, and in Christian countries few, very few, bear the characters of saintship marked in his word.—How can our affirming that which is so manifest in his word and in his providence, be an impeachment of his candour?—If, in the declarations of the gospel, he assure men that it is both their duty and interest to believe in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation, how is it an impeachment of his candour, to maintain that this indispensable rule of our duty to him is not necessarily the rule of his providential conduct toward us?—or to maintain, that he cannot inform us of our duty, without divulging to us his most secret purposes? It is time enough for us to claim the same rule of conduct with Jehovah, when our free will hath transformed our mean and desperately wicked nature into true Godhead. II. With respect to the reprobation of men, it may be observed, I. That God purposed to permit sin.

1. This the Scripture expressly affirms, Gen 50:20; Acts 2:23-24; Acts 4:27-28; hence,

2. He hath foretold multitudes of evil actions, Gen 15:16; Deut 31:16,20,29; Deut 32:6,15-21; Isa 1; Isa 5; Isa 10; Jer 25; Rev 6; Rev 8-9; Rev 11-13; 2 Tim 3:1-6,13; 2 Thess 2:3-12. 3. In time God actually permits much sin, Acts 14:16; 2 Thess 2:9-11; Gen 50:20; Gen 45:5,7; Ps 81:12; Rom 1:21-32. No sin, which hath been, or is in the world, can be said to have happened without his foreknowledge of it, Acts 15:18; Isa 46:10- 11; Ps 147:5, or, notwithstanding all that his infinite power could have done to prevent and hinder it, Gen 18:14; Jer 32:17,27; Matt 19:26. Nay, his permission of it tends to the honour of his absolute sovereignty, infinite wisdom, holiness, and justice,—and to the advantage of established angels and men. II. God in his predestinating purpose, left some men unelected to perish in their sin, to the praise of the glory of his justice.

1. The Scriptures plainly declare this, Prov 16:4. (where pahhhal, hath made, signifies to appoint, ordain, prepare, Exod 15:17; Ps 31:19, even as poieo, Mark 3:14; Heb 3:2.) 1 Pet 2:8. (where stumbling denotes sinning) Jude 4. (where krima, condemnation, denotes the sinful cause of condemnation or what is criminal) John 9:39; Rev 13:8; 2 Cor 4:3-4; Rom 9:13-22; 1 Thess 5:9; 2 Thess 2:10-12-13. 2. In God's providence, which is an exact copy of his decree, Acts 15:18; Isa 46:10; Eph 1:11; Ps 33:11, multitudes appear plainly left to perish in their sin, Matt 7:13-14; 2 Thess 2:10-12; 2 Thess 1:8-9; Rev 13:3,8; Rev 17:17; Ps 9:17. Millions of fallen angels had never a Saviour provided for them, Jude 6; 2 Pet 2:4. Hundreds of millions of men, for many ages, have never been informed of the method of redemption through Christ, Ps 147:19-20; Prov 29:18; Eph 2:12; Acts 14:16; Acts 17:30.—The far greater part of those that hear the gospel, or at least are called Christians, are, by their rejection of it, ripened for hell, Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; Matt 7:13-14; John 10:26; John 12:39-40; 2 Cor 4:3-4; Isa 6:9-10; Acts 28:26-27; Phil 3:18-19; 2 Tim 3:1-5; Rev 13:3,8; Rev 14:9-11. III. It follows that certain particular persons have been, in God's decree, appointed to wrath, Mal 1:2-3; Rom 9:11-18; 1 Thess 5:9; Jude 4; were never favourably known by God, Matt 7:23; were never appointed or ordained to eternal life, Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8.—Nay, particular election of some necessarily infers a particular reprobation of others.—In which act of reprobation is included, 1. God's passing by certain persons, leaving them unelected, Matt 7:23; Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8. 2. A pre-appointment of them to undergo his just wrath, to be inflicted on them as the punishment of their foreseen sinfulness, 1 Thess 5:9. But it must be remarked, that though men's sins be foreseen and viewed in God's pre-appointment of them unto wrath, as the cause of their condemnation and punishment, yet they are not the cause of his leaving them unelected to perish in their sin; for, 1. Reprobates are no worse by nature than those that are elected, 1 Cor 1:26-27; 1 Cor 4:7; John 13:18; Eph 2:1-3. 2. Their practice was foreseen as no worse than that of many elected persons before their conversion, 1 Cor 6:9-11; Eph 2:1-13; 1 Tim 1:13,16; Titus 2:3-6. 3. The wickedness of unelected men is represented as the consequence, though not the proper effect of their reprobation, 2 Cor 4:3; John 10:26; John 12:39; 1 Pet 2:8-9; Jude 4; Rev 13:8.
 

Grailhunter

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Actually the heretical doctrine of grace according to Calvinism.
How is it that someone would put this much work into trying to prove God is a monstrous puppet master. That all of reality is a puppet show.
What will be the reaction of God that someone tried to use the scriptures against Him.
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!
 
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tabletalk

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Actually the heretical doctrine of grace according to Calvinism.
How is it that someone would put this much work into trying to prove God is a monstrous puppet master. That all of reality is a puppet show.
What will be the reaction of God that someone tried to use the scriptures against Him.
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!


I love the doctrines of Grace.
 
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Robert Gwin

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In the decree of election, God doth not fix conditions of eternal life, and choose such as will fulfil them, but he sets apart particular persons to be infallibly made partakers of eternal salvation.

1. Particular persons, as hath been just stated, have their names written in the book of life, Luke 10:20; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 21:27; Isa 4:3, etc.

2. Some men are represented as particularly and personally chosen to everlasting life, Eph 1:4-6; Matt 20:16; Matt 22:14; John 10:3,26-27; John 13:18; John 17:9; John 6:37; Acts 13:48; Acts 18:10; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:13,23; Rom 11:5,7; 1 Thess 1:4; 1 Thess 5:9; 2Thess 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Pet 2:9; 2 Tim 1:9; 2 Tim 2:10.

3. The infallible and unalterable connection between election, redemption, and eternal salvation, necessarily requires that those very persons, who are actually saved, must have been elected to obtain that salvation, Ps 33:11; Isa 14:24,27; Isa 46:10; Rom 8:28-39; Rom 9:11- 13,23; John 10:15-16,27-29. God's election of these particular persons is absolute, proceeding wholly and only from his own infinitely wise and sovereign will and good pleasure; and altogether independent on their foreseen faith or good works.


1. The Scripture represents his election of them as merely depending on his own will, and as purposed in himself, Luke 12:32; Luke 10:21; Matt 11:25-26; Rom 9:11-13,16,18; Rom 11:5-6; Eph 1:5,9,11; Deut 7:8; Deut 9:4; Deut 10:15; 2 Tim 1:9.

2. God, who chooses them, is absolutely sovereign in his disposal of his favours, Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Dan 4:35; Isa 57:17-18; Isa 43:24-25; Rom 5:20- 21; Rom 9:15-16,18,20-21; Ps 115:3; Ps 135:6; Job 33:13.

3. He could foresee no moral goodness in fallen and corrupted men, as moving Him to elect them to everlasting happiness, Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ps 5:9-10; Ps 14:1-4; Isa 59:1-15; Rom 1:21-32; Rom 3:10-19,23; Rom 5:12; Rom 8:7-8; Titus 3:3; Jer 13:23; Jer 17:9; Eph 2:1-3; Eph 4:17- 19; Job 14:4; Job 15:14,16; Matt 15:19.

4. No true faith or holy obedience, but what God himself works in them, can be found in any man, Phil 1:29; Phil 2:13; Eph 2:4-10; 2 Thess 1:11; James 1:17; 1 Cor 4:7; 2 Cor 3:5; Isa 26:12; Ps 57:2. Now God's own work in time can never be the condition of his choosing us before time to eternal life.

5. Our faith and holiness are the fruits of God's election of us; and hence can never be the cause or condition of it, Acts 13:48; 1 Thess 1:4-5; 2 Thess 2:13; John 8:47; John 10:26-27; Eph 1:4; 1 Pet 1:2.

6. Our faith and holiness are properly parts of our salvation largely taken, and evidences that we are in the state and begun possession of it. And hence they are not so much as proper conditions of salvation, but means of receiving or improving it, and of preparing for the full enjoyment of it, Titus 3:5-7; Rom 7:4; Rom 6:14. How absurd then to suppose them conditions of God's electing us to that salvation!

7. If God's election of men to everlasting life depended on his foresight of their faith and good works, his redeeming love could be no such distinguished favour as the Scripture represents it, John 3:16; 1 John 3:1; 1 John 4:9-10,19; Jer 3:19; Jer 31:3; Job 35:7; Job 41:11; Deut 10:11; 1 Cor 1:29; 1 Cor 4:7; Eph 1:6; Eph 2:7; Rom 9:15-16,18; Rom 5:8,20-21.

8. So far are our good works from being the conditions upon which God elected us to everlasting life, that the making them procuring causes of our salvation is represented as altogether eversive of the grace of God therein manifested, Rom 4:4; Rom 11:6; Rom 9:16; Gal 2:21; Gal 5:2,4.

Men are chosen by God to everlasting life in Jesus Christ, as their representing Head.

1. Our election is expressly represented as in him, as our new covenant Head, and the great mean of the execution of that decree, Eph 1:4; Eph 3:11; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2.

2. The effects of our election are all enjoyed in Christ—as redemption, Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 1 Cor 1:30; Rom 3:24-25;—effectual calling, Phil 3:14;— justification, Isa 45:24-25; 1 Cor 1:30; 2 Cor 5:21.—adoption; Gal 3:26;—regeneration and sanctification, Eph 2:10; 1 Cor 1:2; Acts 26:18; 1 Cor 1:30.—preservation in grace, Jude 1; Col 3:3; John 14:19; John 10:28; John 15:5,7,—spiritual comfort, John 14:18; 2 Cor 1:5; 2 Thess 2:16-17;—and glorification, Rom 8:15-18; Eph 2:6; Isa 45:17,25; Isa 60:19; Col 3:3-4.

3. Without supposing our election to everlasting life in Christ as our Head, God's putting our stock of holiness and happiness in Adam, as our covenant-head, could not be so clearly vindicated, Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21-22.—Nor does it appear, how we could have been recovered, quickened, justified, or sanctified by him, if we had not been chosen in him, Rom 3:10-26; John 5:25-26; Acts 3:15,26; Rom 8:1-2; 1 John 5:12; John 14:19; Col 1:19; Col 2:9-10,13; Eph 2:10; Eph 3:17,19; Heb 2:12-16; 1 Cor 6:17; Titus 3:5.—

But, though we were chosen in Christ as our Head, yet his mediatorial office and work are not the cause of our election, but only the cause of that salvation which we were chosen to obtain.


1. It hath been proved, that our election proceeds from the mere sovereign will of God.—It was of his mere free favour, that any men were elected to everlasting life. It was of his mere good pleasure, that such particular persons, and not others, were elected, Matt 11:25-26 Luke 12:32; Rom 9:11-23; 1 Cor 4:7; 1 Cor 1:25-30.

2. While Christ himself is, in God's electing purpose, chosen as our Head, his mediation is appointed in it, as the mean of executing it, and as the purchasing, procuring, and applying cause of our salvation therein decreed, Isa 42:1-7; Isa 49:1-6; 1 Pet 1:18-21; John 3:16-18; 1 John 3:5,8; 1 John 4:9-10.

3. Christ died for men considered as sinful in themselves, but loved of God, and elected to everlasting life,—that they might obtain it in a way consistent with his honour, Matt 1:21; John 10:10,14-15; John 15:13; Eph 5:2,23,25; Isa 49:3; Isa 42:21.

Of God, the Author, Object, and End of All Religion;
John Brown


Jehovah is very kind for sure, but if one truly wants to be saved they will obey Jesus by realizing that you have to have an active accurate faith. Jesus said to some that salvation was dependent upon doing Jehovah's will Mat 7:21
 

Iconoclast

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Actually the heretical doctrine of grace according to Calvinism.
How is it that someone would put this much work into trying to prove God is a monstrous puppet master. That all of reality is a puppet show.
What will be the reaction of God that someone tried to use the scriptures against Him.
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!
I deal with many unbelievers when I am out in public.
Actually the heretical doctrine of grace according to Calvinism.
How is it that someone would put this much work into trying to prove God is a monstrous puppet master. That all of reality is a puppet show.
What will be the reaction of God that someone tried to use the scriptures against Him.
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!
I deal with many unbelievers out in public each and every day. They offer carnal philosophy and their own ideas about what they think and what they believe. But like you they often no scripture they have no insight into actual scripture verses and when I offered scripture to them like I've offered in this thread they have no response from scripture , because without the Holy Spirit indwelling the person they cannot welcome or receive the word of God and that seems to be very common nowadays
 

Iconoclast

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Jehovah is very kind for sure, but if one truly wants to be saved they will obey Jesus by realizing that you have to have an active accurate faith. Jesus said to some that salvation was dependent upon doing Jehovah's will Mat 7:21
If you will work through what was offered you will discover that salvation is the work of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
3 Divine co equal co eternal persons .
It is God's work that saves us by His grace and Mercy being extended to us.After being justified we do good works that were not ordained for us.
 

Grailhunter

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I deal with many unbelievers when I am out in public.

I deal with many unbelievers out in public each and every day. They offer carnal philosophy and their own ideas about what they think and what they believe. But like you they often no scripture they have no insight into actual scripture verses and when I offered scripture to them like I've offered in this thread they have no response from scripture , because without the Holy Spirit indwelling the person they cannot welcome or receive the word of God and that seems to be very common nowadays

There is really no scriptures about God not allowing free-will
There is really no scriptures defending Him against those that would believe God is a monstrous puppet master. The Apostles at times would have to deal with situations in congregations of rebellious people but never accusations so evil as the Calvinists levy. So it is not going to be a discussion in scriptures. It is too far over the top evil.
The whole storyline of the Bible is about people have the choice of faith and warnings about not sinning....that is the perspective of the whole story of the Bible....not that is not....Don't worry about faith! God will force it on you! Don't worry about sinning....God has you completely under His control.

Predestination is a power of God....that does not mean He chose to enslave all of humanity.

Christ talks about the Jews pounding their chests and puffed up but no sect of Christians that were so self centered that they considered themselves the "elect" We are loved more by God than you! God selected us before creation, but He damned you! We stand above everyone else! We are better than you with the Great Puppet Master God! Who mercilessly damns people before they are born....born into damnation with no escape!....HA HA HA! Isn't that great!!! No mercy for you!
LOL It is a fool's folly!
 

Curtis

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Forget all the Calvinist “doctrines of grace” proof texts for now, because once you realize what a vile insult Calvinism is to God’s very character and nature, you can easily google ‘refuting Calvinist proof texts’ and see how they are eisegesis and not exegesis.

When you study Calvinism you find that in that doctrine, God not only causes every single event that happens without exception, he also puts every thought that anyone has into their heads, without exception.

This means that god not only caused Lucifer to fall and become the evil one and father of lies, he put the very thoughts in Satan that caused him to rebel.

This means god not only caused Adam to break the command against eating the forbidden fruit, (then punished him for breaking it) he put the very thoughts in his head that led him to do so.

So every war that happens, every rape, every murder, every child molesting, every death, everything bad, is decreed by god to happen, without exception, including the fall of mankind - and was directly caused by god - making him, not Satan, the author of lies and evil, and caused Adam and Eve to fall, making God the author of our sin - thus making the god of Calvinism is the only real sinner in existence.

And of course every evil perverted thought of a child molester who rapes and kills a young child, was put in their head by Calvin’s god, as well as all the evil thoughts of every mass murderer like Mao, Hitler, Stalin, etc.

The holocaust was also Gods decree.

And that’s why Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods very character and nature

It’s almost funny reading John Calvin’s writings trying to explain that even though God decrees everything that happens including the very thoughts that we think, he is not really the author of sin.

After contradicting himself over the years with his doublespeak attempts, he finally explains it by saying God has a secret will that we can’t understand, and shouldn’t question.
 
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Iconoclast

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I have a question: Is the grace of God extended to all along with the universal invitation to repent and believe the Gospel?
Hello Paul,

God is good to all men.
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Men are given two lights, the light of conscience and the light of nature. romans1;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The goodness of God is meant to lead men to repentance;
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


As the gospel is preached to all men who are able to hear it, Jesus is offered freely.It started with a small group in Jerusdalem, and is now spreading worldwide, even to New Zealand.
 

Iconoclast

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"Curtis,"

[Forget all the Calvinist “doctrines of grace” proof texts for now, because once you realize what a vile insult Calvinism is to God’s very character and nature, you can easily google ‘refuting Calvinist proof texts’ and see how they are eisegesis and not exegesis]

We do not forget scripture by live by every word of it.. The foolish podcasts claiming to refute everything are teaching at an imbecilic level. You cannot be serious.

[When you study Calvinism you find that in that doctrine, God not only causes every single event that happens without exception, he also puts every thought that anyone has into their heads, without exception.]

Your post is proving what I said. God is not the author of sin at anytime. You invent a caricature and strawman, but cannot go line by line and offer correction to any link offered. You seek to dismiss it with your bogus statement.


[This means that god not only caused Lucifer to fall and become the evil one and father of lies, he put the very thoughts in Satan that caused him to rebel.]

Those podcasts you listen to offer such nonsense, but no biblical Calvinists says any such thing.


[This means god not only caused Adam to break the command against eating the forbidden fruit, (then punished him for breaking it) he put the very thoughts in his head that led him to do so.]

These blame God for mans sin fantasies that you are suggesting are actually profane. No Calvinist says what you say. Obviously you have never understood what is taught in the Confessions of faith , held by the historic church.


[So every war that happens, every rape, every murder, every child molesting, every death, everything bad, is decreed by god to happen, without exception, including the fall of mankind - and was directly caused by god - making him, not Satan, the author of lies and evil, and caused Adam and Eve to fall, making God the author of our sin - thus making the god of Calvinism is the only real sinner in existence.]

This is an evil and blasphemous thought as you continue to try and blame God for mans sin.


[And of course every evil perverted thought of a child molester who rapes and kills a young child, was put in their head by Calvin’s god, as well as all the evil thoughts of every mass murderer like Mao, Hitler, Stalin, etc.]
More evil thoughts by you.
[The holocaust was also Gods decree.]

Do you think anything that comes to pass, surprises God? Do you think God is a spectator, and a victim wringing His hands and saying, oh no, what are they doing now??? Sounds like you do not know the biblical God at all;

This God; psalm115;

2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

dan4:
34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


[And that’s why Calvinism is a vile insult of Gods very character and nature]

The vile insult is your post suggesting God is the author of sin.
 

Robert Gwin

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If you will work through what was offered you will discover that salvation is the work of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
3 Divine co equal co eternal persons .
It is God's work that saves us by His grace and Mercy being extended to us.After being justified we do good works that were not ordained for us.

Not a Bible teaching Jn 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3
 

Iconoclast

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Not a Bible teaching Jn 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3
Sure it is.Jesus in His humanity , humbled Himself and submitted to the Father as He explained in Jn6
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

Jesus in His humanity, as mediator submits to the Father.

Do not get hung up on JW.error.
 

Robert Gwin

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Sure it is.Jesus in His humanity , humbled Himself and submitted to the Father as He explained in Jn6
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,

Jesus in His humanity, as mediator submits to the Father.

Do not get hung up on JW.error.

You stated previously he was equal to Jehovah, I simply pointed out as you confirmed in this post that Jesus was not equal to Jehovah, neither as a human as Jesus personally stated, nor as the returned spirit being as God revealed through the apostle Paul
 

Iconoclast

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You stated previously he was equal to Jehovah, I simply pointed out as you confirmed in this post that Jesus was not equal to Jehovah, neither as a human as Jesus personally stated, nor as the returned spirit being as God revealed through the apostle Paul

my friend,any who deny Jesus is God go into second death.
They will learn that as He tells them depart from me,I never knew you.
 

Paul Christensen

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Hello Paul,

God is good to all men.
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Men are given two lights, the light of conscience and the light of nature. romans1;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


The goodness of God is meant to lead men to repentance;
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


As the gospel is preached to all men who are able to hear it, Jesus is offered freely.It started with a small group in Jerusdalem, and is now spreading worldwide, even to New Zealand.
So, if grace is extended to all, yet some are saved and others are lost, is grace the reason why sinners are saved, seeing that the same grace is extended to those who are lost? So grace may not be the deciding factor of whether someone is saved and someone else is lost, don't you think?
 

Iconoclast

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So, if grace is extended to all, yet some are saved and others are lost, is grace the reason why sinners are saved, seeing that the same grace is extended to those who are lost? So grace may not be the deciding factor of whether someone is saved and someone else is lost, don't you think?
Hello Paul
There is a common grace given to all men .
God allows them to breathe His air, enjoy the blessings of Married life,family, friends .
Men are kept in check by a God given conscience.
These Grace's are common to all men.
Saving faith, repentance and faith, a new heart, are only given or graced to those elected by God before the world was.2tim.1:9
These Grace's are made effectual simultaneous to regeneration, new birth.