The beast that was and was not and yet is

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Insight

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After reading the entire thread I see how shilohsfoal has certainly caused some grief among those who love God’s chosen people. It appears he certainly lacks a certain fear of Yahweh and His mighty army that many others possess. This spiritual army has actively defended God’s people throughout the ages and will do so till the end. The promises made to Abraham are still honored to this day and God jealously upholds these promises to the death!

For this reason shilohsfoal, you do not know the God of Abraham.

Let’s look briefly at Rev 17

The beast shall - go into perdition - - Rev 17:8 - - The Greek word signifies apoleia destruction. Now what exactly will be destroyed? An individual nation? A particular religious group? Or a Political System?

The later is spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:4 which will also be destroyed by Christ at his coming?

But what follows next is amazement ???

"And they that dwell on earth shall wonder"

Why wonder?

This speaks to John’s experience when he was astonished (wonder) at the deplorable state of Christianity in Rev 17:6.

No, this beast system is larger than little Israel - - Israel is already hated among many nations and if they were destroyed tomorrow many would rejoice!

One must look more broadly to see the wonder of the destruction of this Political System.

Insight
 

Arnie Manitoba

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The Jew and Israel have always been central in God's plan.

The sun has been shining on the grafted in gentile Christian Church for 2000 years , but in the future God's focus comes full circle back to Israel.

God does it for his own reasons , and for His Holy Name ........ in spite of stubborn Israel, and their unbelief (as to Jesus) ,

Read the prophecies again . It is very clear.
 

Groundzero

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Just read this out of curiosity. Almost spat food all over my laptop it was that funny!

Seriously, shilohsfoal, if what you are stating is that clear Biblically, why don't you show it, instead of punching air with your declarations about Israel being the Beast! Show me a Scripture! You gave an example. Yeah, what about this one: Babylon. Babylon once was, and then was revived in the theology of the Roman Catholic Church! Your reasoning is spineless! Don't point fingers at people in you don't have a spine. Even then, you should only do it in love! I see NO Scriptural basis for what you have said.
 

dismas

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The 3rd Temple is the seat of Mystery Babylon - which is why New Jerusalem comes down from the sky, to replace the 3rd Temple devoted to Satanism. (Remember, the ac sits in it and calls himself god.)

All this rah, rah Israel bs is, IMO, Satanically designed to lead Christians into apostasy/ the strong delusion via Christians' (programmed via propaganda) hatred of Muslims. Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet at least, Jews do not.

Matthew 10
quote:



17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.​

We know that Christians will be hated for Christ's name, meaning Christ is despised by some false accusation that people will believe.

IMO, this is accomplished by the Mahdi ("Islamic antichrist"/ not the real antichrist) (probably Mullah Omar of the Taliban) swearing allegiance to a false Christ that shows up at the faked end of the world, Dec. 2012. (remember, Muslims acknowledge Jesus/ Issa as an end time figure). This alliance probably would be : Mahdi swears allegiance to fake Jesus from the "secret chambers", fake Jesus swears allegience to faked UFO's. "UFO's" destroy the world's cities with the Great Tribulation hail and fire/ plagues. The secular world says, "look, Jesus is a terrorist.". Ultimately, the Pope is "forced to admit" that they made up Jesus.

Against the manipulated hordes of Muslims, stands the noble manipulated hordes of US and EU "holy warriors" fighting "demon" possessed Muslims.

"But, but, those were "demons" pretending to be Jesus! The antichrist was Mahdi and his false prophet was Bin Laden (or Dajjal or whoever) and Satan was Dabbutal Ard (an Islamic end time figure that is not called a "dragon" but clearly is a "dragon".)
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?17816-The-Beast-Dabbatul-Ard-that-will-appear-at-the-End-of-times!
Features and Qualities of the Beast:

Ibn Jurayj reported that Ibn Az-Zubayr[ra] described the beast in such words, "Its head is like the head of a bull, its eyes are like the eyes of a pig, its ears are like the ears of an elephant, its horns are like the horns of a stag, its neck is like the neck of an ostrich, its chest is like the chest of a lion, its color is like the colour of a tiger, its haunches are like the haunches of a cat, its tail is like the tail of a ram, and its legs are like the legs of a camel. Between each pair of its joints is a distance of twelve cubits. It will bring out with it the staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman. There will be no believer left without it making a white spot on his face, which will spread until all his face is shining white as a result; and there will be no disbeliever left without it making a black spot on his face, which will spread until all his face is black as a result, then when the people trade with one another in the marketplace, they will say, `How much is this, O believer' `How much is this, O disbeliever' And when the members of one household sit down together to eat, they will know who is a believer and who is a disbeliever. Then the beast will say: `O so-and-so, enjoy yourself, for you are among the people of Paradise.' And it will say: `O so-and-so, you are among the people of Hell,' This is what Allah says:

And when the Word is fulfilled against them, We shall bring out from the earth a beast for them, to speak to them because mankind believed not with certainty in Our Ayat.[ 27: 82]

...

The beast will emerge from the earth, and with it will be the staff of Musa and the ring of Sulayman, peace be upon them both. It will strike the nose of the disbelievers with the staff, and it will make the face of the believer bright with the ring, until when people gather to eat, they will be able to recognize the believers from the disbelievers.

(As you can see, this beast / "dragon" to Western eyes has the staff of Moses and the ring of Solomon that it uses to mark believers with - meaning there is a dragon marking Muslims with the Seal of Solomon/ the Star of David! - a false Israel, just like the real Antichrist, Prince William, will institute.)


But I digress. So, the EU and US defeat this "demonic" horde, but there's no Christ showing up, huh.

"Well, Prince William defeated them, so I guess that must make him the messiah, yep that must be the case. And since Jesus isn't real, let's all get with William and unite in world wide brotherhood!" Or some sort of crap like that...

One more thing about Israel.

http://www.glennbeck.com/israel/gbtv
Here we have Glenn Beck's "Restoring Courage to Israel" rally on August 24, 2011.

Restoring Courage: Courage to Stand
Wednesday, August 24, 2011
  • GBTV Broadcast Times:
    • LIVE: One hour pre-show begins at 9:00am ET followed by the event at 10:00am ET
    • PRIMETIME REBROADCAST: 7:00pm ET
On August 24, 2011, Glenn Beck will host an event at the Davidson Center in Jerusalem. Taking place just steps from the Western Wall and the Temple Mount, this program calls for unity among all faiths, and will honor Israelis who have displayed courage in their struggle for survival and peace. It will also issue a challenge to all citizens of the world to stand with and declare their support for Israel. Joining Glenn will be religious leaders, esteemed speakers and entertainers including the Rabbi of the Western Wall, Shumuel Rabinovitch, Academy Award winning actor Jon Voight, internationally renowned singer Dudu Fisher, and the Jerusalem Great Synagogue Choir. Tickets to this event are sold out; however, you can watch the program LIVE on GBTV.com!

Compare this to Daniel 9
[sup]24[/sup]Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[sup]25[/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[sup]26[/sup]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[sup]27[/sup]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Strangely enough, starting on Friday, August 26, 2011, there are 69 completed weeks until Friday, December 21, 2012.

12-21-12 11:11 am plus 3.5 days is 12-25-12 when the 2 witnesses are killed and people exchange gifts (Rev chap 11). They watch their corpses for 3.5 days and then the 2 witnesses are raptured (in conspiracy circles, this is the "Project Blue Beam" fake rapture) on 12-28-12.

Dec. 21, 2012 through Dec. 28, 2012 would be the completed 70th literal week.

Presumably, the AC (Prince William) makes a covenant with Israel for literally 1 WEEK and in the middle of the week (Wednesday, 12-25-12) breaks the covenant.

If this pattern is correct, then something bad happens on the completion of the 62nd week, Friday Nov. 2, 2012, something that cuts the "Prince" off.

Are the people behind this rally so blind to scripture? NO. They are Satanists that know full well what they are doing, making a ritual out of a prophecy to produce the antichrist.
 

BibleScribe

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Dec. 21, 2012 through Dec. 28, 2012 would be the completed 70th literal week.
...


This is quite an interesting post. I was caught completely unaware that if you start form Dec. 29, 2012, and count backwards (YES, -- it's actually possible to count BACKWARDS) seventy weeks, that you could have EVER arrived at some insignificant date! WOW!


I certainly hope you contact the White House and tell them of your discovery. <_<


BibleScribe
 

veteran

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Yeah, and the Dec.21, 2012 date most likely is part of Satan's plan to come as fake king messiah on that date, proclaiming to be Christ Himself! That's how many Christians would be deceived.

I mean anyone that would claim prince William as the Antichrist/false messiah, I mean really, that idea is really out there!! Why not Castro?? or an Arafat resurrection too??
 

Arnie Manitoba

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People who dislike Israel compose a long list of things Israel has done wrong . Israel is guilty of disobedience and un-belief Yes , that is true.

But We must also compose a list of all the good Israel has done , and the plans God still has for future Israel . It is a long list .

You cannot eliminate God's plans for Israel without prophecy collapsing altogether. Israel plays a major and important role in future events , whether we like it or not. Thanks

We Christians hang on the branch grafted into the olive tree. Israel is the Olive tree. Remove it and we fall apart too. Don't cut the roots off your tree. It is not beneficial.

Best regards.
 

veteran

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You're becomming more and more like the Scribbler....

Explain yourself!

Matthew 13 about the parable of the tares of the field. Prince William is definitely not the Antichrist like dismas said in his post, which would logically be a belief of the "tares" who work against God's people.
 

tgwprophet

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I wrote:
"God has chosen his people.. the Jews - It is Christains that have chosen God, thanks to and through
Jesus. If I was to venture to consider a nation as the beast that was and is not and is yet to
come... I would have to consider it the Roman Empire. "
BibleScribe wrote:
"I hate to break the news, but the Roman Empire ceased to exist approximate 425 - 625 A.D. Did
the newspaper boy miss his delivery that day?"
BibleScribe, I should have written it as " I would have to consider the Roman empire. - not - I
would have to consider "it" the Roman Empire." (I got carried away in the wee hours when I
posted that.
----- Although, I do not see your logic in disqualifying the Roman Empire. Mainly, I consider the
Beast that was and is not and yet is... as being a single being. But, this is my consideration.
..... God Bless you
 

texian

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I just read some comments from April 20111 on this thread:

shilohsfoal, you are involved in the spiritual conflict of the end times. The tradition of men
which took over most of Christianity since the late 19th century is promoting physical Israel,
who, as a group rejected Christ, though a small Remnant accepted Christ. Now, there is some
movement among physical Israel to compromise, and say they accept Jesus as their Messiah, but they
hold on to their genetic status as descendants of Abraham, the chosen people, and various
ways and degrees of worship according to the law of the Old Covenant. These are the groups called
Messianic Judaism.

The tradition of men as the False Prophets are preaching that physical Israel must be honored, and as Revelation
13: 12 says, the second beast causes people to worship the beast whose deadly wound was healed, which sounds a lot
like the nation of Israel. Those who are in love with the truth of the New Testament cannot accept the
promotion of a people and a nation that "confessith not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh" (I John 4: 3). This does
not mean that those in love with the truth (II Thessalonians 2: 10-12) are "anti-semetic" as the ADL might claim.

Revelation 17: 8 tells us "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Revelation 17: 11 says "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

There are two beasts in Revelation 13, the first which can be identified as a government beast because of verse two harking back to Daniel 7 with the four beast empires, and the second beast who appears like a lamb (as a Christian), but who speaks like a dragon. And there is that scarlet colored beast on which the woman of Revelation 17: 1-6 rides..

You have to be careful here because there are more than one beast in the Book of Revelation. And you have to be very careful not to overly literalize and/or anthropomorphize the beasts just because your theology says all scripture should be interpreted literally.

The beast of Revelation 17: 8 who comes out of the bottomless pit, using the literalist "hermeneutic," from
the pagan god Hermes, does sound like one individual demon spirit. It could be a demon spirit and also the human entity that he inspires, which may be the case also in Revelation 9: 1-5, on the Fifth Trumpet Judgment where the bottomless pit is opened and locust-scorpions appear. The human scorpions (Ezekiel 2: 3-6) could be led by the demon spirits released from the bottomless pit, which in itself is also a metaphor.

Revelation 17: 11 is a general principal about how man, controlled by God, moves. Implicit in this brief statement, which is so important, is Genesis 1: 26, 31 and Genesis 2: 2-3, that man was made on the sixth day, and God rested on the seventh day.

n2thelight says "When the last of the elect, and the 144,000 of Israel are sealed, then Satan will arrive as the Antichrist. This age is a repeat of the first earth age. Now, what about the other Christians? They will follow false doctrine, and go into Satan's camp. The deception will cover the whole earth, yet the truth is in your hands to forewarn those around you in this generation."

Under the tradition of men which took over most of Christianity decades ago prophecy has to wait until the dispensationalist seven year tribulation to be fulfilled. Under dispensationalism, no major prophecy has seen some fulfillment before the tribulation begins. There cannot be a leavening of the church until it is totally leavened (Luke 13: 21), the falling away (II Thessalonians 2: 3) cannot have started in the late 19th century (because that implicates the very theology which now runs most of Christianity), and False Prophets, some as Christian celebrities, could not have been deceiving Christians for many decades.

And THE Antichrist must be a one man world political leader and/or a False Christ as some kind of mix of the two.
Oh, I forgot, the 144,000 who are sealed right before the tribulation begins in Revelation 7: 1-3, must be all Jews because the theology demands a literal interpretation. They cannot be the Remnant of Israel (Zephaniah 3: 12-13), that Israel which Paul in Galatians 6: 16 says is the Israel of God, to distinguish it from the other Israel Paul defined in Romans 9:8 and Galatians 4: 25.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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None of us can possibly know exactly who the Beast is (or will be) . We are simply not given enough information at this time.

The best we can do is ponder all the possibilities as the years go by. Eventually we may be able to be more accurate as world events fit Revelation in a more precise manner.

But I do feel it is wise for us to always consider all the possibilities ,

How about a re-incarnated Nebuchadnezzar!
kaoticprofit made the above quote , I have often considered that the Beast could be someone (famous) who once was , now is not , and yet will come (return).

How about a miraculous resurrection of Mohamed , or Hitler , or JFK , How about Saddam Hussein (who already thought he was the second coming of Nebuchadnezzar) .... anything is possible.

This is pure conjecture of course , but just for a second consider if Lady Diana reappeared tomorrow. Half the world would bow down to her. They practically did at her death and funeral already. The world would love a resurrected Lady Diana , They certainly hate the resurrected Jesus right ?? . Think about it.

It will be a time of miraculous deception authored by Satan , The AC , false prophets and all their workers.

We will not buy the lie , but the world will. That is the whole purpose.

Most of end times prophecy and the book of revelation is about what the world will follow (believe)

We are not the world. We are the Church.

And Israel is Israel.

Way to many Christians make the mistake of applying the world prophecies to the Christian Church , or The Chosen People. We should know better.
 

veteran

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None of us can possibly know exactly who the Beast is (or will be) . We are simply not given enough information at this time.

The best we can do is ponder all the possibilities as the years go by. Eventually we may be able to be more accurate as world events fit Revelation in a more precise manner.


Those who don't... already know, are in trouble already today.

As a believer on Christ Jesus, you can know, and should know, that is, IF He gave for you to know. It is not given for all to be able to recognize what or who the Revelation 'beast' is.


Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)


As a Christian, who do you 'think'... that is?

Break that verse down part by part, then put it all back together. Right there our Lord Jesus gave His enough to know who that is.
 

tgwprophet

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I see so much distain that one must remain immune to while in this forum. And so, i write this in hopes of streghtening one's immunity inorder to continue the base for these discussions - truth and understanding in prophecy. Tis a good thing to be on fire for Jesus and for the Word of God. We should remember that our perspective is not the only perspective and should consider the intentions of our fellow Christains. I have read very interesting concepts and ideas from nearly everyone here and though some I understand are wrong and some are challenging and some are right, I simply allow them to give me strenght in continuing my quest.

I read one claiming the ring of Solomon would or could be used as the mark and it gave me a reason for ponder, wondering if the Mark of the Beast need not be an identifyer of that person, but merely a "branding" and one continued to use their Social Security cards, Their credit cards, Drivers License and such just as always, but the person "behind the counter" would be required to see the branding. Hmmmmm, I must give that concept credence and explore it further.
 

veteran

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In other words, it's more profitable to ponder as many different things for the 'mark' like a bunch of Greek philosophers who only loved to hear new things while never coming to the truth, instead of learning what God's Word reveals about it and who the antichrist will be? Is that the kind of reasoning the Churches are teaching today?
 

n2thelight

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Rev 17;8

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.


The beast had existed before John even wrote this verse veteran.
Yet you are looking for something that has never existed.
Why cant you pay attention to one verse?
You would ignore all that is written about the beast just so you can teach your fairy tales about your new world order.

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This "beast" was in the Garden of Eden deceiving [beguiling] Eve; he is not here now, for he is in heaven accusing the saints before the throne of God, now. He [Satan] will ascend out of the bottomless pit, as we saw in Revelation 9:1, and 2, and "he will go to perdition", following the judgment at the end of the Millennium kingdom age. Friend, "he" spoken of here, is Satan, and don't let any one tell you any different. Satan is the "son of perdition" as recorded in II Thessalonians 2:1-4, and he will be the first Christ to come at the end of this earth age.

"Perdition" means to "perish", and only Satan has had that sentence passed on him at this time. We are told that those "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world", [that first earth age], will wonder, or follow after Satan. They fell in the first earth age, and they will also fall in this earth age. Those of who were chosen in that first earth age stood against Satan then, and they will also stand now. They are God's elect.

When the last of the elect, and the 144,000 of Israel are sealed, then Satan will arrive as the Antichrist. This age is a repeat of the first earth age. Now, what about the other Christians? They will follow false doctrine, and go into Satan's camp. The deception will cover the whole earth, yet the truth is in your hands to forewarn those around you in this generation.
There will be no equal to the deceptions that are going to come, in the history of all mankind. Yet the sermons of today are full of nonsense, with no sense of urgency given even as this great hour of deception is at our doorstep. The Church sleeps, while the Kenites steal the sheep.

Commentary by Roger Christopherson
 

BibleScribe

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Ummmmmmmm, I could be wrong, but this "beast" is not of ancient authority. There are FIVE kings before it who have fallen, one that is, one that is yet to come, and then finally this eighth.

This "Roger Christopherson's" focus on this eighth as though it were independent and absent of the previous seven, is ill considered.


Thus I would advise one to identify the seven, before attempting the eighth.

BibleScribe

None of us can possibly know exactly who the Beast is (or will be) . We are simply not given enough information at this time.
...



Hi Arnie Manitoba,

You are incorrect in your presumption. These are CLEARLY identified in multiple confirmations by both Scripture and History. Please consider the full merit of the evidence.


BibleScribe