I don’t resist that because of that, but that I find such as not what scriptures teach; and they are opposite to what I believe.
At least you affirmed those as being what you believe.
Tong
R4498
Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?
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At least you affirmed those as being what you believe.
Tong
R4498
The ramifications of your belief that you are a robot....are that you blaspheme God greatly. You degrade Christianity and give the Apostles and the saints no credit for their belief, dedication, or effort.
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.
It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.
If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what scriptures would he quote? Condemnation, judgment, negativity, hate? If Satan had a Bible in his lap, what Christian denomination would he form? Schemer that he is, he would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!
He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.
The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.
From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!
<<<If you want, you can believe that the real believer automatically will continue to believe.>>>
Automatically will continue to believe?
As I said, I am secured in Christ and have full faith in His promise, from the time I believed Him in my heart many years ago.
And since it is possible for you to stop believing, I exhort you to not stop but continue believing.
Tong
R4499
You can criticize what I believe, all you want, even with more than a million works, if that is what it will take you. If you think what I believe is foolishness, why do you feel the need to criticize it the way you did? For foolishness will not stand, even without lifting a finger to take it down.
And cone to think of it, all I said is what you believe and what I believe, and that we differ. At least you seem to affirm that it is what you believe I said you believe. At least I was not mistaken with that.
Tong
R4500
Another thing I want to point out is that you and I agree on most everything.
And like I said it was unfortunate that James used the word justified as in justified by works. But still I believe that it was an innocent mistake. At that point James could not know that the word justified would turn into a theological term. Because of our faith, we are justified through Christ. Because He redeemed us we are obligated to obey Him and do the things that please Him...and His example and instruction are to do good for one another.
Tolerance of differing beliefs. I am a walking example of that because I am multi-denominational.
People have the right to believe anything they want....hitch a ride to Heaven in a flying saucer....I do not care.
Where I draw the line is when someone's beliefs can lead people down the path to Hell.
Calvinists, Predestinationists, OSAS, and these new social religions, they draw people into a belief that blasphemes God, ruins lives, and leads people to Hell.
So I object.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I guess it's just easier in your theology to keep believing. I mean, until you find that maybe it's not.
"...the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. " 1 Corinthians 10:12
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Then what are you afraid of about a person doing the believing, or dis-believing in God's plan of salvation? You've made it clear that you think that makes salvation of man, not God. Believing is not a work of self righteous merit. So what are you afraid of?
Afraid of what? I have nothing to be afraid about whatever it is you think I am afraid about.
If you think you could lose your salvation or that you can stop believing, then I think that will be how it is with you.
Tong
R4502
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You are afraid free choice is a works gospel, right?
God decides if and when you can have the free choice to either accept or reject the gospel of salvation. It is entirely by God's grace that a person is given the opportunity to exercise free choice in the matter of salvation.
35 years and counting. No problem, yet. (I say that humbly.)
The criticism used to be that I was unfairly impressing the belief that you can stop believing onto others while I myself stayed in strong belief, defying my own beliefs about the matter. But I know how it is...it's that Matthew 11:17-19 thing, lol.
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You make it sound like they might leave. However, the Scripture gives no option for that.
If Christ remains in you, you are a Christian. If Christ does not remain in you, you are not. But if Christ is in you, if you are born again, these apply, and will not be shown false:
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Much love!
How magnanimous of you!
Christ in me has faith enough for both of us! My faith is His faith in me!
Galatians 2:16-21 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Actually, he is saying that.
"...if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" James 2:14
Dead faith can not save. And if are sure 'save him' can't be in regard to salvation, read on... ↓↓↓
"...because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God" 1 John 3:9-10
The man with no works to validate the presence of saving faith is not born again. That's why the truly saved, born again person must also be justified by works (as James means that) or else he is showing himself to not be born again. But we got a lot of people in the church today thinking their faith that is 'alone' saves them, and makes them ready for Jesus' return. They're in for a big surprise. Ultimately, in the end, works-less faith is the equivalent of no faith.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
This is exactly what I'm saying. So why are you contending with me?
James says a man is justified by works. Which we both agree means our works show our faith (James 2:18). So what are you contending with me about? A man is justified by, both, faith and works (James 2:24).
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
"...righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. " Romans 3:22
"...they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness." Romans 10:3
"...they were ignorant of God’s righteousness and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness." Romans 10:3
<<<You are afraid free choice is a works gospel, right?>>>
Nope. Why would I even be even afraid of that?
<<<God decides if and when you can have the free choice to either accept or reject the gospel of salvation.>>>
Among other things that God does in His work of salvation, God chooses who, if, when, where, how.
<<<It is entirely by God's grace that a person is given the opportunity to exercise free choice in the matter of salvation.>>>
No question, it is God’s grace. And that choice is given to a person. How do you suppose that comes to a person, the fallen natural man?
That’s good. And I would assume, considering what you believe and teach, that you’ve been given the opportunity to be saved and remain saved, and make the choice each and everyday for 35 years now, right?
Well,….you’d better not stop and keep choosing, while you can.
I sincerely pray that there would not be a day that you would not be able to.
Tong
R4510
Dead faith is not the faith that comes from God. Nothing dead comes from God. All that comes from God are of the Spirit, and the Spirit is life.
<<<The man with no works to validate the presence of saving faith is not born again.>>>
That would be bad news for the thief on the cross.
<<<That's why the truly saved, born again person must also be justified by works (as James means that) or else he is showing himself to not be born again.>>>
And so you conclude he must.
Tong
R4511
If it’s true that what you are saying is exactly what I am saying, then we need say no more.
Tong
R4512
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