Looks like you do not understand the meaning of death. Either the first or the second.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I like a bit of homework....
but I was hoping that you could provide the scripture that supports God being a fiendish torturer of naughty souls in eternal flames. I find that repugnant....don’t you?Punishment is not possible after death because you have to be alive and conscious in order to suffer.
The dead are not alive, nor are they conscious.....(Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) so how does that work? How can humans beings, created in God’s image have no superiority over animals in death? They have the same spirit, breathe the same air, and die the same death.
Punishment can only be experienced before you die....after death the punishment can continue in your absence because your death will be permanent.....you will know nothing about it.
'If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
Mortify (or reckon as dead) therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection,
evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: ... '
(Colossians 3:1-5)
Hi @stunnedbygrace,
You have raised an important point and one which needs to be considered carefully. It is true that by God's reckoning, and by our own reckoning by faith, we have already died with Christ: been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and ascended with Him to God's right hand, now awaiting His appearing in glory, where we too will appear with Him. For God has placed us 'in' Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30-31). He is our life: our life being 'hid' with Christ in God.
Yet though we acknowledge the truth of that, and live within the light of it: nevertheless we are made up of so many pounds in weight, and are living and breathing souls of men; who will die and go back to the dust from whence we came. Our spirit, or, 'breath of life', having returned to God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Only the power of the resurrection can raise the dead to life again, and unite spirit and body, to become a living soul once more. Only God can cloth us with the spiritual body prepared for us, suited to our resurrection life (1 Corinthians 15:44 & 49), which He has prepared for us (2 Corinthians 5:2).
As for the record we have of those who were raised to life at the death of Christ, and were seen by the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that you refer to: They, I believe, were raised as Lazarus was, to earthly life, which was still subject to death.
In Revelation 20:4-6 we see two resurrections referred to: those who are privileged to have part in the first of those resurrections will not be subject to the second death: but will be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for one thousand years; whereas those who are not raised until the end of that period, will be subject to the second death. These two resurrections, are revealed within the context of the times being referred to in the book of Revelation: but there is another also in 1 Thessalonians 4, in which those that have been, 'asleep in Christ,' shall be raised (1 Corinthians 15:23), along with those who, 'are alive and remain,' at Christ's coming again, who will never die (John 11:26). So there is much to be considered isn't there?
God knows what He is doing, and knows the end from the beginning, and is fully aware of what the outcome will be for each and every one of us. You and I can only read His word and seek to understand by His grace. I hope and pray that we are not in error, but only He can know that and by His grace put us right.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I like a bit of homework....
Punishment is not possible after death because you have to be alive and conscious in order to suffer.
The dead are not alive, nor are they conscious.....(Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) so how does that work? How can humans beings, created in God’s image have no superiority over animals in death? They have the same spirit, breathe the same air, and die the same death.
Punishment can only be experienced before you die....after death the punishment can continue in your absence because your death will be permanent.....you will know nothing about it.
This will take a few posts but we can straighten this out.
First off it is true we do not know a lot about Heaven and Hell. They are mostly New Testament topics.
For this topic the Old Testament is mostly irrelevant. God never promised the Hebrews / Israelites /Jews Heaven for being good or threaten them with Hell for being bad....blessings and punishments for the Jews occurred in this world. Then they died and gathered with their fathers in Sheol and that was their permanent destiation...no Heaven. The Jews knew of Satan but never were told he was a devil. They did not believe in a devil in the Old Testament and still do not believe in the devil or Hell today...not in their religion. So we have to concentrate on the topic of Hell in the New Testament. Word analogies...Hell...Hades...are separate topics that I have already covered.
So the "400 years" between the testaments....some....of the Jews became aware of Heaven, Hell, Angels, the resurrection and of course Satan as a devil. What happened? Well scholars believe they know but it is a separate topic. Suddenly in the New Testament....Heaven is opened up for Mankind. The devil is a threat to souls and Hell is a possible destination. Then you have the book of Revelation and Judgment Day and the Lake of Fire.
Punishment....Charles "Taze" Russell had issues with Hell and a God that would painfully punish people for eternity...He of course was the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He also had issues with Christ being a God. Some of the words you say echo his words and beliefs.
Hellfire! Why fire? Well even though you do not believe in an eternal hellfire punishment it is described that way directly or in analogies by Christ and the Apostles. I am going to have to assume that you know this....because if you are not familiar with the Bible, this is going to get real long. The Bible is not going to talk about dungeons and racks such like that. It is just eternal punishment by fire. Do souls feel anything? Whether it is good feelings in Heaven or agony in hell. We only know so much about that, but as an existence without some form of feelings...it might not be good. But if Christ and the Apostles did not believe that souls had feelings hellfire would not matter. The punishment would be more like locked up for eternity in darkness....no feeling, no sight, no hearing.
I was at church camp one time and was sitting around a campfire with the preacher and the team members and the topic of Heaven came up. So someone ask the preacher what he thought Heaven would be like? He believed that the souls would go to Heaven...not really bodies....more like spirits, praising the Lord continually. Well to cut to the chase because the conversation went on for a while. He believed that we would not hunger or eat...or go to the bathroom....no sleep....no labor...no wives or husbands....no sex....no eyes so no sight...(sensory I guess) no solids or surfaces so no need to have a sense of touch. No mouths to talk with. Of course I am asking humorous things like about baseball and fishing. But non-of-that. And because of all that emotions would be different and that is why there would be no sadness or tears. Of course the questions continued and he explained that the Bible really did not get into the details of what souls did in Heaven. So in the end I nudge him and replied, It sounds a little depressing. So I waited for a minute and asked what he thought Hell would be like...in the humorous context like, if it would be better.
Well he said the bible indicates that we go body and soul to Hell....He referenced the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man and Lazarus were talking. Well that means both had mouths to talk with and the rich man was experiencing discomfort. Well if he was standing in a wall of fire he probably would not be talking much...mostly screaming....but the story is an analogy of sorts.
So we get back to the question of why fire? The fire is definitely in the scriptures. But is it really fire, or just an analogy of the worst punishment imaginable? We are in the parameters of speculation here. Fire is the worst thing they knew of back then. The reality of it, they could only explain things from that spiritual realm in vague detail....could they/we comprehend it....is it worse than fire... they described it as the worse thing imaginable. For one you are completely separated from God.
Christian imagination took it from there. Most of the images of Hell that Christians have are from screen plays and poems, like Dante's Divine Comedy...early 14th century....John Milton's Paradise Lost mid 17th century and a mix of certain traditions from around Europe.
On the question of why God would punish people for eternity? The real question is, is it God punishing them? Is it a factor of the spirit world?....a condition of the spirit world? God is not going to surround Himself with evil. So they will not be around God...the alternative being separated from God. Is that the horror and pain of Hell? It is still speculation. Outside of Fundamentalism there is more information, like various levels of Heaven...Sheol...and Hell. But that is not biblical and there are other Christian writings that occurred centuries later....there are books that include these early writings but they are not generally of any interest to Fundamentalists ...and these books give detailed explanations of Hell and the why's.
What is not speculation is that the Bible says that the punishment will be eternal and references fire. Will we have questions when we get to Heaven? You betcha. But by all biblical indications, Hell is not were you want to end up.
Now as far as the words Hades, Hell, and Sheol I have already discussed this in this thread. If you want to rehash it we can.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Very good.'If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above,
where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
Mortify (or reckon as dead) therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection,
evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: ... '
(Colossians 3:1-5)
Hi @stunnedbygrace,
You have raised an important point and one which needs to be considered carefully. It is true that by God's reckoning, and by our own reckoning by faith, we have already died with Christ: been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and ascended with Him to God's right hand, now awaiting His appearing in glory, where we too will appear with Him. For God has placed us 'in' Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30-31). He is our life: our life being 'hid' with Christ in God.
Yet though we acknowledge the truth of that, and live within the light of it: nevertheless we are made up of so many pounds in weight, and are living and breathing souls of men; who will die and go back to the dust from whence we came. Our spirit, or, 'breath of life', having returned to God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Only the power of the resurrection can raise the dead to life again, and unite spirit and body, to become a living soul once more. Only God can cloth us with the spiritual body prepared for us, suited to our resurrection life (1 Corinthians 15:44 & 49), which He has prepared for us (2 Corinthians 5:2).
As for the record we have of those who were raised to life at the death of Christ, and were seen by the inhabitants of Jerusalem, that you refer to: They, I believe, were raised as Lazarus was, to earthly life, which was still subject to death.
In Revelation 20:4-6 we see two resurrections referred to, those who are privileged to have part in the first of those resurrections will not be subject to the second death: but will be priests of God, and of Christ, and shall reign with Him for one thousand years; whereas those who are not raised until the end of that period, will be subject to the second death. These two resurrections, are revealed within the context of the times being referred to in the book of Revelation: but there is another also in 1 Thessalonians 4, in which those that have been 'asleep in Christ' shall be raised (1 Corinthians 15:23), along with those who 'are alive and remain' at Christ's coming again, who will never die (John 11:26). So there is much to be considered isn't there?
God knows what He is doing, and knows the end from the beginning, and is fully aware of what the outcome will be for each and every one of us. You and I can only read His word and seek to understand by His grace. I hope and pray that we are not in error, but only He can know that and by His grace put us right.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
While I do not really disagree, I do believe that what a "lie" is to God may not be quite the same as it many times might be to man.
I believe that God does work on the Left hand as well as on the Right. Who is it that does the left hand work for God?
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You mean there are two deaths .
YES THERE ARE . and the second death awaits all who have not Come to CHRIST that they may have life and life eternal .
There is a natural death and there is spiritual death . And the second death is a death that none would ever want to face .
The answer , thus the solution is , PROCLIAM THAT IF ONE BELIEVES IN JESUS , CONFESSING HIM BY MOUTH
and BELIEVING from the heart that GOD has rose HIM from the dead , that they shall be saved .
But enoch , BE NOT AS THE MANY who are going under the all inclusive many path lie .
For the END OF THAT LIE ........................now heed this real closely , IS THE SECOND DEATH .
NEVER tell a muslim HE is serving the same GOD as we are , NEVER tell anyone or give anyone any false hope .
THERE IS BUT ONE , and enoch i do mean ONLY ONE , WAY UNTO GOD . ITS IN JESUS , IN HE ALONE .
I TAKE THIS TO MY GRAVE and i only pray others will as well . WE cannot be swept away with the grand delusion of the all inclusion .
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
God is love. That I believe is an absolute Truth. Everything He does, thinks, says, is motivated from love. Everything. He cannot lie. He cannot deceive. He cannot coerce. Not because He is following a self imposed arbitrary rule, but because His very nature recoils at the suggestion of Him doing different, acting inconsistently, or changing the game to suit His agenda. Which is why the new testament is not a new way of salvation to the old. The new testament is an unfolding of the plan of salvation that began before creation. It wasn't an afterthought or plan B because the old failed. There were setbacks, that God used for good. But sin and death were never a part of the plan. The irony is that because of sin and Calvary, we now understand the character of God better. And now, through the indwelling Spirit of God, we are closer to God than Adam ever was in the garden.
I was writing in another thread and explaining the difference between sin and evil. When scripture says God created evil, it isn't saying He created sin, or that He approves or even uses sin. He doesn't sin that good may come, as Paul said. We need to be careful I think when considering the nature of our God. It is holy ground.
While the details may not be all the same, or at least perhaps are not described the same, much of what you believe, I believe that I believe.
Communication between people remains a problem when it comes to putting our understanding or beliefs into words for others read or hear even at time when there is no real disagreement. Sometimes we agree but need to communicate better to let each other know.
I strive to always be careful when describing things of importance [what are they?], including the nature of God, but as you know, people often want to make everything all black and white as if they perfectly understood the Absolute Truths [ATs] of God. They exist, I believe, but a lot of things people hold onto and insist upon as ATs also, I believe, cause them to stumble because they are unwilling to admit even the possibility of error on their own part. I was taught this lesson a very hard way. Is this an AT for me?
I still miss my way too often but I also know that I need to bring it all [all of anything that might be considered an AT by me] to Him regularly for addition, subtraction or correction.
God is always able... but He has made it so that during our allotted time, I believe, we must give Him permission to work within us to fix whatever needs fixing. Many times we do not know what! He always does!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Amen to all that my brother. That thing you often remind us of... The low place... Always a great place to start each day.
This is physical immortality. Adam was denied the fruit, as were all who came after, and yet they live. Sinners are in sheol, alive, yet dead. Which to me is very significant also, and so I understand there to be a part of a man that continues after physical death.
What I mean was not that man was "intended" to live forever, and at such and such a time that condition would be fulfulled. What I mean is, what if man were manufactured to be durable. That the soul of man was built to last.
Much love!
With human ideas of justice based an imperfect knowledge of how things really are, I think.
Much love!
So then you don't think it was Samuel speaking to King Saul in Endor?
Or when you say "immortal soul", do you mean this as a qualification? That souls survive the death of the body, but not forever?
Much love!
bbyrd009
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likely an allegory for “spiritual life,” but im done discussing the possibility of “living forever” with Christians. No, i seriously doubt that Genesis confirms that God created man to have everlasting life, just like i doubt that put on immortality means become immortal, no matter how many ancient Pharaohs and Caesars and even Chinese Emperors, etc, ad nauseum, were obsessed with it
There is only ONE IMMORTAL, Who dwells in unapproachable light
”live forever” is an english translation, right, and i bet it is being read too literally? Especially considering the rest of Scripture; near as i can tell we arent even promised toooooooomorrow lol
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I am with you, because in the creation story, we are not told how long man was designed to live, except that we are told that they lived for a long period of time.
It is good to see you back. There are so few people on this forum who can put their laughing matter to good use.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Well, what came after this statement was nothing scriptural. Just waffle....I’m not interested in people’s opinion of scripture if it is merely a mask for what they want it to say.
I am thinking that speculation is a waste of time if it does not use scripture as a firm base. So just using the scriptures and a good concordance can we just cut to the chase and examine what the Bible tells us about death and focus on the big picture, not just a verse or two that seems to indicate that God is a despotic and sadistic fiend who grants life, but who then demands that we obey him or he will torture us forever in flames....is this who you think he is? That is not the God I know.
Yes...so let’s look at that. Let’s unwrap some concepts here and figure out where they came from and who promoted them....and what they mean in the big scheme of things.
So you think all Christians are heaven bound? Why do you imagine that God placed humans on earth then? Did he not already have a large spiritual family in heaven that he created to live there? Did any of them need ‘training’ here to live there? If not, then why us? What was God’s purpose in putting us here? Can you explain?
“Hell” does not exist in the Bible.....not the word and not the concept.....not anywhere.
Sheol is not hell....hades is not hell....the lake of fire is not hell.....these concepts developed long after Jesus and the apostles died....a time when Jesus indicated that the devil would create a counterfeit “weed”-like “Christianity” that would lead people away from God, but that would be allowed to remain in the world until it was time for the “harvest”.....the “weeds” would be the first to go.
Sorry I could not find them...perhaps you could remind me.....?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is one of my favourites......
Some facts.....
Samuel was dead? Yes.
Did the Jews believe in an immortal soul that departed from the body at death? No.
Did the pagans who were former inhabitants of the land believe in such things? Yes.
Did God command that Saul remove all the ones practicing spiritism from the land? Yes.
Did Saul thereafter prove himself to be unfaithful to his God? Yes.
Had Saul been abandoned by God because of his disobedience, so even the living prophets would not speak to him? Yes.
Why did he disguise himself after finding the only spirit medium left in the land? Was he aware that he was breaking God’s law concerning such practices? Yes.
Did this woman contact the spirit world and “bring up” the dead prophet? No.
Was the woman the only one who saw and heard this spirit who was pretending to be Samuel? Yes.
Did Saul at any time hear or see “Samuel”? No.
So, since these details are all in the account, it really depends on your own mindset as to how you interpret the story....would God speak to a disobedient and unfaithful King who was breaking his law and allow a dead prophet to tell him what to do, when his living prophets would not even speak to him?
Please read the account at 1 Samuel 28:3-25 again with these points in mind.
No....I mean that there is no such thing as an “immortal soul”. “Souls” in the Bible are living breathing creatures....humans and animals. “Souls” are never referred to as disembodied spirits....ever.
So because souls are mortal, they require external things to keep them alive. In the flesh immortality is impossible...that is why the terminology is different for humans...they were granted “life without end”...or “everlasting life” which is not “eternal” because that word means “without beginning or end”...humans have a beginning but were given the opportunity to live forever in their mortal flesh...on one condition...that they obey the directives of their Creator.
Only spirits can be granted immortality because they do not require external means to keep living. But in all of God’s heavenly family, none of these spirits was immortal in the literal sense of the word. They, like humans could have their lives terminated.
“Immortality” is “the power of an indestructible life”...IOW there is nothing that can cause their death. God only grants immortality to those who have proven worthy of it.
So, IMV it is a fanciful idea that God would create humankind in his own image, and place them as material beings on a material planet in a material universe, if he was only going to take them to heaven after struggling though this life, anyway....what would be the point?
I see no mention of this in the scriptures....so where do you get this idea that all Christians must go to heaven whilst the bad guys must go to hell? These concepts were unheard of to Jesus’ Jewish audience. He was a Jew who preached only to his fellow Jews, so you tell me why he would all of a sudden, preach something that was foreign to them? He used only the Hebrew Scriptures in his teachings, so the truth has to be in those scriptures as a foundation for all that he taught.....for most Christians today, the “Old Testaments” is just that....”OLD”...but it is no such thing. Without the Hebrew Scriptures, the Greek scriptures make no sense on their own. “All scripture is inspired of God”...remember?
sorry i dont deal with strange fire !!! you can make the Bible say anything you want and proclaim it truth you can play with your strange fire and i will pour water on it..
bbyrd009
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i now suspect even the “969 years” thing is meant as an analogy, although i dont know
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