The Church is not prepared for what is to come.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

You say the church isn't prepared. What church are you speaking of?

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Being prepared physically and spiritually means we have to know what God has planned for His people and for the world. Do you know?
From many Prophesies, we can see that the Lord will soon reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-40
We are told to stand firm in our faith and to call upon the Name of the Lord on that terrible Day.

Bruce Atkinson said:

Like Gods' 8 covenants with Israel...they apply to Israel ONLY. Some Christians try to make the 8th covenant, the 'New Covenant' apply to Christians, but nothing could be further from the truth per Jeremiah 31:31-33 - what part of verse 31 don't they understand?

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We Christians are not required to keep the 'feasts'. For now at least.
We aren't under the Law, but we are under the Commandments, as Jesus reiterated.

Who is the true Israel?
Are they only those citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who call themselves Israelis, but are mostly secular or practice Judaism?
Jesus came to save the lost people of the House of Israel. Did He fail, as the Jews rejected and killed Him and continue to reject Jesus. Thinking they will miraculously convert soon, is contrary to many scriptures. Romans 9:27

The truth is that we Christians ARE the Israelites of God, His faithful people, from every race nation and language. Revelation 7:9, Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 6:14-16

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I believe the True church that has Jesus as it's foundation and him as head of that church to be a global church. I just don't believe that the True church has divisions in it, what some call denominations. I can understand that church not being ready, I just don't believe it to be the True Church.

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I use the term 'denominations' and 'denominal churches' to mean denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. Each of them selectively pick and choose what they believe in Gods' Word, change it as desired, and add to it as well. Yes, there definitely some born again believers in the denominations. But it's certainly hard to believe the truth when it's well hidden by those in denominational churches.

Keraz said:

Being prepared physically and spiritually means we have to know what God has planned for His people and for the world. Do you know?
From many Prophesies, we can see that the Lord will soon reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah. Matthew 24:37-40
We are told to stand firm in our faith and to call upon the Name of the Lord on that terrible Day.

We Christians are not required to keep the 'feasts'. For now at least.
We aren't under the Law, but we are under the Commandments, as Jesus reiterated.

Who is the true Israel?
Are they only those citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, who call themselves Israelis, but are mostly secular or practice Judaism?
Jesus came to save the lost people of the House of Israel. Did He fail, as the Jews rejected and killed Him and continue to reject Jesus. Thinking they will miraculously convert soon, is contrary to many scriptures. Romans 9:27

The truth is that we Christians ARE the Israelites of God, His faithful people, from every race nation and language. Revelation 7:9, Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 6:14-16

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You believe that the day that God reset civilization during Noah's day to be a terrible day? How was it terrible? It's my understanding from the scriptures that God did something righteous and just, when he destroyed the wicked. How is what God did terrible? Isn't the definition of the word terrible, strongly repulsive, objectionable, etc.? I don't think what God did to those he destroyed during Noah's day to be objectionable, or repulsive. So I don't believe when God destroys the wicked during Armageddon to be objectionable or repulsive either. Now those being destroyed will most likely believe it to be objectionable or repulsive of what's happening to them even though it's God destroying them, but God is destroying them because they chose Satan and became God's confirmed enemies just as Satan is.
I agree that those who are the true servants of the True God are to stand firm in the faith. And I agree that true christians are from every race, nation and language, but that's not a denomination. In the united States there are so many different denominations, who can keep up with how many they are. So just because true Christians will be in different nations, and races and languages, that's not denominations or divisions.

Keraz said:

The truth is that we Christians ARE the Israelites of God, His faithful people, from every race nation and language. Revelation 7:9, Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 6:14-16

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Amen, We Agree

michaelvpardo said:

We don't see anything representing the USA in eschatological scripture

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This is highly debatable. And the answer is the more realistic reason why the church isn't ready for what is to come.

Bruce Atkinson said:

I use the term 'denominations' and 'denominal churches' to mean denominations like Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. Each of them selectively pick and choose what they believe in Gods' Word, change it as desired, and add to it as well. Yes, there definitely some born again believers in the denominations. But it's certainly hard to believe the truth when it's well hidden by those in denominational churches.

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I understand what you believe, that you honestly believe this to be the true church, and that's your right to believe that, I just disagree with you. I also believe that the denominations that you spoke of, Lutheran, Episcopalians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. truly believe they are true Christian organizations. I just don't agree with that. This is why I can understand that this global church that they believe is the true church will not be ready for what's ahead. I believe the true global church will be prepared, God will prepare his people.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I understand what you believe, that you honestly believe this to be the true church, and that's your right to believe that, I just disagree with you. I also believe that the denominations that you spoke of, Lutheran, Episcopalians, Catholics, Methodists, etc. truly believe they are true Christian organizations. I just don't agree with that. This is why I can understand that this global church that they believe is the true church will not be ready for what's ahead. I believe the true global church will be prepared, God will prepare his people.

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You sound arrogant and proud.

However you wish to define the true church, or elect, they still have sin in them and varying types and degrees of disobedience, which need to be repented of.

This is why God's wisdom is so excellent. Throughout the end days, the judgment begins in the House of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17) and continues on for the whole world.

And by the way, there are 2 ways of interpreting "begins in the House of the Lord":

1) It physically starts with His Body before anything or anybody else, or

2) His Body of people (the church) recognize God's judgments that are unleashed on the whole world before everybody else because the saints are knowledgeable and spiritually aware and practicing being aware of God's judgment, respond to God's judgment and begin to get disciplined and repent.

Last comment for this ridiculous debate:

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

NewMusic said:

You sound arrogant and proud.

However you wish to define the true church, or elect, they still have sin in them and varying types and degrees of disobedience, which need to be repented of.

This is why God's wisdom is so excellent. Throughout the end days, the judgment begins in the House of the Lord (1 Peter 4:17) and continues on for the whole world.

And by the way, there are 2 ways of interpreting "begins in the House of the Lord":

1) It physically starts with His Body before anything or anybody else, or

2) His Body of people (the church) recognize God's judgments that are unleashed on the whole world before everybody else because the saints are knowledgeable and spiritually aware and practicing being aware of God's judgment, respond to God's judgment and begin to get disciplined and repent.

Last comment for this ridiculous debate:

1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

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I Know that the true global church doesn't have sinless people in it. I never said that the true church was filled with sinless people. But I don't believe when it comes to the true Church that it must have divisions in it just because the people in the true Church have inherited sin. That would mean that the scriptures that said a kingdom or house divided can't stand are wrong. I don't believe that when a scripture says that if a kingdom or house is divided it can't stand to be wrong. So since a kingdom or house can't stand because it's divided, then the true church would not have divisions in it. Just because the true Church has people who have inherited sin doesn't mean the true Church has divisions in it. The truth is that those who are truly servants of the True God and therefore his Only Begotten Sons disciples know and understand that the True God is the rightful sovereign of the universe. So even though true Christians live in many societies and under different circumstances, they all obey the same laws of the True God and live by the same Bible principles. The fact is that when it comes to true christians and therefore the true church it is united in love, because the True God has taught them to love one another as no one else can, so as the united Church of the True God their love surpasses all organizations, even countries. The true Gods word tells us at Colossians 3:12-14 to "clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long suffering. Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has cause for complaint against another. Even as the True God forgave you, so do you also. But, besides all these things, clothe yourselves with love, for it is a perfect bond of union." The scripture at John 13:35 teaches us, this perfect bond of union, "love" is the quality that principally identifies true Christians. Also true Christians and therefore the true church are also United because they look to God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind. True servants of the True God are also United because they know that very shortly God's Kingdom will replace all human governments and bless obedient mankind with genuine, lasting peace. So I can understand that the church you speak of, not to be prepared, but the True church the True God has prepared.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I Know that in the true global church doesn't have sinless people in it. I never said that the true church was filled with sinless people.

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Not on topic, but I need to understand what you mean here. If you are saying that there are no-one who doesn't have a sin nature, then I would agree. We all inherited that nature from Adam. But if you are saying they're are no-one anywhere who doesn't sin, then I would ask how do you know and why not?

Backlit said:

Not on topic, but I need to understand what you mean here. If you are saying that there are no-one who doesn't have a sin nature, then I would agree. We all inherited that nature from Adam. But if you are saying they're are no-one anywhere who doesn't sin, then I would ask how do you know and why not?

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NewMusic posted in post number 247: "However you wish to define the true church, or elect, they still have sin in them and varying types and degrees of disobedience, which need to be repented of."
I thought he was saying, when I said the true church wouldn't be divided by denominations he was suggesting that the true church because it's members still have sin in their flesh that would be the reason that the true church isn't united and why they have denominations. I was simply saying that we all sin. I wasn't saying that members of the true church were perfect and never sinned or make mistakes, and I'm not talking about practicing sin, like I said a mistake. A true Christian can make a mistake like adultery, but he/she doesn't make a practice of such sin. There's a difference between a person making a mistake and someone who practices something.

Backlit said:

Not on topic, but I need to understand what you mean here. If you are saying that there are no-one who doesn't have a sin nature, then I would agree. We all inherited that nature from Adam. But if you are saying they're are no-one anywhere who doesn't sin, then I would ask how do you know and why not?

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Allow me to step in here and answer this.

First, we did not inherit a sin nature. This is another horrible teaching from christendom.

I shall answer it two ways. One from logic, and the other from scripture.

And I have encountered this first-hand in my lifetime: Heathens saying that Jesus dying on a cross was not a big deal because countless others in history have suffered far worse and for far greater lengths of time.

These are true statements from the heathen. And seemingly difficult to respond to.

They then go onto say that if they inherited sin from somebody else, that not only would that not be fair, but then God made them that way and so they are only acting in accordance with the way He created them.

Again, both logical arguments and impossible to negate.

But those ideas come from horrible teaching out of christendom, which took numerous bad teachings from Catholicism and the protestants unwisely adopted them.

If original sin were true, then sinners who stand before the Judgment Seat of the Great White throne would in fact be able to say to God,

"Why do you find fault? You made me this way!"

And all their rejection of truth and the gospel of Jesus Christ would be based on the sin character they were created with while still in the womb.

Their argument would be solid, except that it would be based upon a lie.

The scriptures do not teach it.

2) The actual truth, and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out, is :

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

Men are called sinners BECAUSE ALL MEN have sinned! That is what Paul wrote in 5:12.

The noun "sinners" comes from the cause, the verb phrase "have sinned". Death being a result of having sinned.

And that makes perfect sense. No need for a long drawn out discussion. Sometimes common sense is enough, and you see what is written and the bell goes "ding, ding, ding."

Why did death spread to all men? Because all men have sinned.

Simple

Men do not sin because they are born sinners.
Men are sinners because they have sinned. Romans 5:12 again if you need to.

You do not need a sinful nature to sin.

Did Adam and Eve have sinful natures before they gave into the devil's temptation to sin? Of course not! So you see you can sin without a sinful nature. And all of us have acted just like Adam/Eve in choosing to sin. It seemed pleasurable to us.

Oh... and for you who think you know anything about hermeneutics and want to quote David's psalm 51, please read it again. It's not even close to saying that he was born a sinner from the womb.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

If you did not already have a bias and bad exposure to this "teaching", nobody in their right mind would conclude that David was talking about himself as being born a sinner. Nobody would. They would say, rightfully so, that he is making a statement about the world or his parents, and that his mother was likewise a sinner when she conceived him.

In reference to himself, David is making statements about the world or his parents when he was brought forth, and a further statement about his own mother.

C'mon people. Sin is not something that is passed on genetically. For crying out loud!!!!!

You cannot take some genetic material and give it to another and say, "Here. This is some sinful stuff."

Sin is an action; a disobedience against God's commandment(s). It is wrongdoing.

Wake the heck up! At some age of knowing right from wrong, we have all chosen to go wrong. That is what makes us sinners. And you can see the scripture support for this, too, in Isaiah 7:15 speaking of the virgin birth.

Isaiah 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

= = = = = =

The other point that heathens make about Jesus not having suffered as much as other humans in history, fails to take into account all of the truth of Jesus' suffering. Again, most of christendom fail to elaborate on this, out of ignorance. Here's the truth referring to the Passover Lamb (Jesus) in Exodus 12:

Exodus 12:9 Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted with fire, its head with its legs and its inner parts.

That verse is speaking about the Christ -- the Lamb of God.

Jesus suffered immeasurably, roasting in hell for the sins of the world, and for all humans. And since there are varying degrees of guilt and punishment (i.e. It will be more tolerable on Judgment Day for Sodom and Gomorrah, than it will be for them who have who rejected the gospel), we know that it is inconceivable how much pain and suffering Jesus went through since He paid the price, the punishment for all the world. It's logarithmically off the chart.

He suffered for all my sins (past, present, and future), and all your sins likewise, and all the sins of the people you know are far more wicked (various politicians and hideous terrorists), and all...and all and all.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


It's incomprehensible what Jesus went through for the sins of the whole world.

Anybody thinking that his suffering was only on the cross, which was extremely horrible, are greatly mistaken because they overlook what happened when he breathed his last and descended into the belly of the earth.

That is why He cried blood when He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, in my opinion.

@NewMusic

Okay. First, I agree with the bulk of your first section, and little of your last section.
The part of the first section I disagree with is your contention we are not born of a sinful nature. I agree with the part where you contend we are sinners because we choose to. We sin for theological reasons, not biological. But to understand that we need to differentiate between evil as a subjective noun, and sin as an objective action. Let me explain.
Definitions... Original sin... Sin as nature.
Definition A ..We are not guilty because we are lost, or because of what we say, or do or think, but because of what we have inherited. Thus we become a sinner because we are born. We make sinful choices because we are sinners by nature.

Definition B... Sin is deliberately choosing to go your own way despite all awareness of God's ways and His laws. Sin is not biological, but theological. It doesn't originate in the genes, but in the mind. We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we sin.

Two different gospels are built according to which of the above definitions you subscribe to. Two different means and ways to salvation.
KJV Genesis 2:17
17 ... the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die....
....KJV Revelation 13:8
8 ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As soon as there was sin, there was a Savior. Definition A declares that despite what Jesus did, I am still paying for Adams sin. I can only pay for my own sin.
KJV Ezekiel 18:4
4 ...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Luke 13:1-5. Two historical stories here, the incident where Pilate murdered several people and mingled their blood with the sacrifices, and the incident where 18 men were killed building a tower which fell on them. There was evil present, but Jesus made it clear that there was no guilt. Here is the difference between evil and guilt.
For example, when your cat goes outside and kills a beautiful lorikeet, is that evil? Yes. Is there guilt? No. Because the cat didn't know it was bad... It was food.

John 9:2 Lord, this dude is blind, he must be a sinner, but who sinned... His parents?.... Or did he sin in his mother's womb?
Jesus... Neither.
Don't assume that the results of sin is the same as the guilt of sin. Don't assume that evil and guilt are the same thing. Blindness is a result of Adams sin, but there is no guilt attached. Even death is one of the results of sin. It is evil, but there is not necessarily guilt attached. The death we inherit is sleep. Sinners found guilty are condemned to the second death.
KJV John 5:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
When Adam sinned it brought two things... Evil and guilt. We can be forgiven which takes care of the guilt, but the evil, even the sleep of death, remains. What we don't get is the second death as a result of guilt/responsibility.
So does evil transform into guilt, and how?
KJV John 15:24
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
KJV John 9:41
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Knowledge turns evil into guilt.
KJV James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
KJV James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
....this being drawn to something, even by our lust and desires, when we find something, or someone, attractive, Definition A says that is sin. Therefore temptation is sin. Outward stimulus from Satan using all manner of triggers in the world, finding a responsive chord inside ourselves in our ambition or desires, equals temptation. It is real. It is certainly evil. And we have to consider our options. BUT IT ISN'T SIN. Only when it's born, conceived, does it become sin. The thought becomes your own, something you cherish and actually wish were real. That is sin. When you cherish evil. When you tolerate evil. That is sin.
Ezekiel 18:1-4,20 stands of individual responsibility. Choice.
KJV Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
No light... No guilt.
KJV Psalms 87:4-6
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." 4SpiritualGifts 3.3
If definition A is true, If sin is by nature, it is inevitable that we shall constantly and continually sin until Jesus comes when we are translated or resurrected. If such were true, how could Jesus ever leave the sanctuary and His intercession for His people to come and take them home?
If the inevitably of sin is the result of birth, then there is no responsibility.
If sin is by choice, then we are responsible for the choices we make. We can't blame Adam, our wives, our neighbors. And we can't say the devil made me do it.
Conclusion. If definition A were true, then Jesus could not come and inherit our nature because that would make Him a sinner also. He must have a perfect nature and found it easy not to sin. Just as Adam would have found it easy. It was a new nature not inherited from Mary, but a new creation like Adam. Jesus therefore was not tempted in all points such as we were. That is definition A. And this presents the world with a completely different gospel to definition B, because if we cannot stop from being sinners, we are sinning now. Victory over sin is impossible. The gospel is only about justification.
But what of definition B? It brings sanctification as a promise.

So. What are we born with? Hereditary weaknesses and a penchant for the day way. We are born with desires and lusts if the flesh. We are born into a world filled with evil that grates and rubs off on us everywhere we turn. If we let it.

Backlit said:

@NewMusic

Okay. First, I agree with the bulk of your first section, and little of your last section.
The part of the first section I disagree with is your contention we are not born of a sinful nature. I agree with the part where you contend we are sinners because we choose to. We sin for theological reasons, not biological. But to understand that we need to differentiate between evil as a subjective noun, and sin as an objective action. Let me explain.
Definitions... Original sin... Sin as nature.
Definition A ..We are not guilty because we are lost, or because of what we say, or do or think, but because of what we have inherited. Thus we become a sinner because we are born. We make sinful choices because we are sinners by nature.

Definition B... Sin is deliberately choosing to go your own way despite all awareness of God's ways and His laws. Sin is not biological, but theological. It doesn't originate in the genes, but in the mind. We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we sin.

Two different gospels are built according to which of the above definitions you subscribe to. Two different means and ways to salvation.
KJV Genesis 2:17
17 ... the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die....
....KJV Revelation 13:8
8 ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As soon as there was sin, there was a Savior. Definition A declares that despite what Jesus did, I am still paying for Adams sin. I can only pay for my own sin.
KJV Ezekiel 18:4
4 ...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Luke 13:1-5. Two historical stories here, the incident where Pilate murdered several people and mingled their blood with the sacrifices, and the incident where 18 men were killed building a tower which fell on them. There was evil present, but Jesus made it clear that there was no guilt. Here is the difference between evil and guilt.
For example, when your cat goes outside and kills a beautiful lorikeet, is that evil? Yes. Is there guilt? No. Because the cat didn't know it was bad... It was food.

John 9:2 Lord, this dude is blind, he must be a sinner, but who sinned... His parents?.... Or did he sin in his mother's womb?
Jesus... Neither.
Don't assume that the results of sin is the same as the guilt of sin. Don't assume that evil and guilt are the same thing. Blindness is a result of Adams sin, but there is no guilt attached. Even death is one of the results of sin. It is evil, but there is not necessarily guilt attached. The death we inherit is sleep. Sinners found guilty are condemned to the second death.
KJV John 5:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
When Adam sinned it brought two things... Evil and guilt. We can be forgiven which takes care of the guilt, but the evil, even the sleep of death, remains. What we don't get is the second death as a result of guilt/responsibility.
So does evil transform into guilt, and how?
KJV John 15:24
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
KJV John 9:41
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Knowledge turns evil into guilt.
KJV James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
KJV James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
....this being drawn to something, even by our lust and desires, when we find something, or someone, attractive, Definition A says that is sin. Therefore temptation is sin. Outward stimulus from Satan using all manner of triggers in the world, finding a responsive chord inside ourselves in our ambition or desires, equals temptation. It is real. It is certainly evil. And we have to consider our options. BUT IT ISN'T SIN. Only when it's born, conceived, does it become sin. The thought becomes your own, something you cherish and actually wish were real. That is sin. When you cherish evil. When you tolerate evil. That is sin.
Ezekiel 18:1-4,20 stands of individual responsibility. Choice.
KJV Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
No light... No guilt.
KJV Psalms 87:4-6
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." 4SpiritualGifts 3.3
If definition A is true, If sin is by nature, it is inevitable that we shall constantly and continually sin until Jesus comes when we are translated or resurrected. If such were true, how could Jesus ever leave the sanctuary and His intercession for His people to come and take them home?
If the inevitably of sin is the result of birth, then there is no responsibility.
If sin is by choice, then we are responsible for the choices we make. We can't blame Adam, our wives, our neighbors. And we can't say the devil made me do it.
Conclusion. If definition A were true, then Jesus could not come and inherit our nature because that would make Him a sinner also. He must have a perfect nature and found it easy not to sin. Just as Adam would have found it easy. It was a new nature not inherited from Mary, but a new creation like Adam. Jesus therefore was not tempted in all points such as we were. That is definition A. And this presents the world with a completely different gospel to definition B, because if we cannot stop from being sinners, we are sinning now. Victory over sin is impossible. The gospel is only about justification.
But what of definition B? It brings sanctification as a promise.

So. What are we born with? Hereditary weaknesses and a penchant for the day way. We are born with desires and lusts if the flesh. We are born into a world filled with evil that grates and rubs off on us everywhere we turn. If we let it.

Click to expand...

That's a lot to read and attempt to follow. And I think the John 9:44 statement is changed by you or whomever you quoted in the analysis, because as I just got done writing in another thread, that in the Law, Leviticus and Numbers, the people were guilty when committing sins of ignorance. There was a certain type of sacrifice to be made when the sin became known.

So what Jesus said to the Pharisees has to be taken in context of the whole of what God gave in the Law.

But let's keep this short.

You cannot establish that men are born with sinful natures. You just can't. Try as you like, you won't be able to.


And I'll give you a hint, because I think I know the passages and verses that will be played with and brought forth by others in the hours ahead, to try and make the claim that man is born with original sin. Oh, and before I forget, the term "original sin" is also not in the bible. Funny isn't it?

The hint is this: "Nature" and the "natural man". All types of theology are going to come forth from others who attempt to dispute what I wrote above.

What I wrote was simple, from the scripture, and very logical. If you dispute it, you are disputing Paul and logic.

I would suggest anybody who starts off trying to argue on the natural man, to search the Greek word for "natural" as can be found for 1 Cor 2:14.

All the English translations made a poor translation from that word. And when you discover the Greek work, you should ask yourself, "Why in the world did they translate that word into 'natural'?" It's not a good choosing. But when you learn the true Greek word and the definition of it, you will then have better footing to progress on your learning.

The Greek word there (and I'm a bigger fan of the Aramaic, but I'll go with the Greek on this) will help you to know the true meaning of what you think you know.

I'm not going to supply everything. I know the Greek word, and it will help you. Do your homework.

NewMusic said:

And I'll give you a hint, because I think I know the passages and verses that will be played with and brought forth by others in the hours ahead, to try and make the claim that man is born with original sin.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with the concept of original sin. Quite the opposite. I think it's a mistake to merge the meanings of original sin with sinful nature. I thought I'd make that clear in my post, I guess not.
Let me just lay it out but in shorthand.
We are born with all the degenerate moral depravity of our forbears. The propensity to sin. But we are not born with the guilt of sinning. We are not sinners until such Tim he as we have made informed choices in favor of ditching the right way in favor of those immoral leanings that tug at our hearts every day. That find such a responsive chord to the devil's promptings. Then we are sinners once we accept those thoughts and temptations as our own. When we act upon them. We inherit all the results of 6000 years of human weaknesses and evil. We don't inherit responsibility for them.

Backlit said:

I don't agree with the concept of original sin. Quite the opposite. I think it's a mistake to merge the meanings of original sin with sinful nature. I thought I'd make that clear in my post, I guess not.
Let me just lay it out but in shorthand.
We are born with all the degenerate moral depravity of our forbears. The propensity to sin. But we are not born with the guilt of sinning. We are not sinners until such Tim he as we have made informed choices in favor of ditching the right way in favor of those immoral leanings that tug at our hearts every day. That find such a responsive chord to the devil's promptings. Then we are sinners once we accept those thoughts and temptations as our own. When we act upon them. We inherit all the results of 6000 years of human weaknesses and evil. We don't inherit responsibility for them.

Click to expand...

Wow. Much better.

You are now touching on a subject that I and several of my inner group have speculated on for a long time. I like what you are trying to say, but can you flesh it out some more for me? Can you explain some better details on how that moral depravity is inherited?

We know that Adam and Eve's spirit died the day, that very day, that they ate of the forbidden tree. Their souls became preeminent (supreme) while their spirit died or sank very low. Probably died since that's what God said would happen.
Thus, all men ever since are "soul men". All their thinking, willing, emoting, is from their soul and they have dead spirits. This has come to mean to most, a natural man. That's how the word for soul has been translated, instead of what it actually is -- soulical man (the adjective form of soul), or man of the soul as it should have been worded in 1 Cor 2:14. The correct translation should be:

1 Cor 2:14 But the soulical man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Side note: Unfortunately, Christians still live according to their soul, unless they have been trained by a good disciple and taught to embrace the cross, which is applied to their soul, so that the Holy Spirit can actually lead and guide. The soul is always trying to get the upper hand. We must buffet our bodies, and renew our minds, and think and pray in the spirit, always. Very hard to do, but this is the Way.

When we get born again, it is our spirit that gets made alive, or anew.

So Adam and Eve's children are born how...., with a dead spirit? An inactive spirit? Or do all children have a spirit and it dies upon their own first sin?

Now you've got my attention. Flesh it out for me if you can.

Backlit said:

@NewMusic

Okay. First, I agree with the bulk of your first section, and little of your last section.
The part of the first section I disagree with is your contention we are not born of a sinful nature. I agree with the part where you contend we are sinners because we choose to. We sin for theological reasons, not biological. But to understand that we need to differentiate between evil as a subjective noun, and sin as an objective action. Let me explain.
Definitions... Original sin... Sin as nature.
Definition A ..We are not guilty because we are lost, or because of what we say, or do or think, but because of what we have inherited. Thus we become a sinner because we are born. We make sinful choices because we are sinners by nature.

Definition B... Sin is deliberately choosing to go your own way despite all awareness of God's ways and His laws. Sin is not biological, but theological. It doesn't originate in the genes, but in the mind. We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we sin.

Two different gospels are built according to which of the above definitions you subscribe to. Two different means and ways to salvation.
KJV Genesis 2:17
17 ... the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die....
....KJV Revelation 13:8
8 ... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
As soon as there was sin, there was a Savior. Definition A declares that despite what Jesus did, I am still paying for Adams sin. I can only pay for my own sin.
KJV Ezekiel 18:4
4 ...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Luke 13:1-5. Two historical stories here, the incident where Pilate murdered several people and mingled their blood with the sacrifices, and the incident where 18 men were killed building a tower which fell on them. There was evil present, but Jesus made it clear that there was no guilt. Here is the difference between evil and guilt.
For example, when your cat goes outside and kills a beautiful lorikeet, is that evil? Yes. Is there guilt? No. Because the cat didn't know it was bad... It was food.

John 9:2 Lord, this dude is blind, he must be a sinner, but who sinned... His parents?.... Or did he sin in his mother's womb?
Jesus... Neither.
Don't assume that the results of sin is the same as the guilt of sin. Don't assume that evil and guilt are the same thing. Blindness is a result of Adams sin, but there is no guilt attached. Even death is one of the results of sin. It is evil, but there is not necessarily guilt attached. The death we inherit is sleep. Sinners found guilty are condemned to the second death.
KJV John 5:24-25
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
When Adam sinned it brought two things... Evil and guilt. We can be forgiven which takes care of the guilt, but the evil, even the sleep of death, remains. What we don't get is the second death as a result of guilt/responsibility.
So does evil transform into guilt, and how?
KJV John 15:24
24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
KJV John 9:41
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Knowledge turns evil into guilt.
KJV James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
KJV James 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
....this being drawn to something, even by our lust and desires, when we find something, or someone, attractive, Definition A says that is sin. Therefore temptation is sin. Outward stimulus from Satan using all manner of triggers in the world, finding a responsive chord inside ourselves in our ambition or desires, equals temptation. It is real. It is certainly evil. And we have to consider our options. BUT IT ISN'T SIN. Only when it's born, conceived, does it become sin. The thought becomes your own, something you cherish and actually wish were real. That is sin. When you cherish evil. When you tolerate evil. That is sin.
Ezekiel 18:1-4,20 stands of individual responsibility. Choice.
KJV Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
No light... No guilt.
KJV Psalms 87:4-6
4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6 The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." 4SpiritualGifts 3.3
If definition A is true, If sin is by nature, it is inevitable that we shall constantly and continually sin until Jesus comes when we are translated or resurrected. If such were true, how could Jesus ever leave the sanctuary and His intercession for His people to come and take them home?
If the inevitably of sin is the result of birth, then there is no responsibility.
If sin is by choice, then we are responsible for the choices we make. We can't blame Adam, our wives, our neighbors. And we can't say the devil made me do it.
Conclusion. If definition A were true, then Jesus could not come and inherit our nature because that would make Him a sinner also. He must have a perfect nature and found it easy not to sin. Just as Adam would have found it easy. It was a new nature not inherited from Mary, but a new creation like Adam. Jesus therefore was not tempted in all points such as we were. That is definition A. And this presents the world with a completely different gospel to definition B, because if we cannot stop from being sinners, we are sinning now. Victory over sin is impossible. The gospel is only about justification.
But what of definition B? It brings sanctification as a promise.

So. What are we born with? Hereditary weaknesses and a penchant for the day way. We are born with desires and lusts if the flesh. We are born into a world filled with evil that grates and rubs off on us everywhere we turn. If we let it.

Click to expand...

Okay.. I'm reading what you wrote with newer eyes, but I still find problems with most of it.

I already told you that people can be guilty while being ignorant. Actually, not me, but the Law.

And even in the New Testament, Christ says this:

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
Luke 12:48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.

So ignorance does not acquit of guilt.

Regarding temptations, temptations are not equal to sin, as you wrote. No way. You are supposed to resist temptations, but the temptations themselves are not sin. How did you ever come to that notion?

Okay Backlit, where did you get this statement from?

, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." 4SpiritualGifts 3.3

I'll jump in here with a couple of brief answers to some of what has been posted in the past day or so...

1. We are ALL BORN SINNERS: (all verses from KJV)

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thinking that we are not BORN sinners is NOT BELIEVING Gods' inerrant Word.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)

We are saved by faith alone in who Jesus IS and what He died for...our sins, as shown in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, aka, the Gospel.

2. Regarding the 'true church': The true church is all born again, saved individuals. They/we are saved by faith alone without works. I had a conversation maybe 15 years ago with a very Catholic friend of mine and he kept coming back to James 2:14-15

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (KJV)

He was using his works in the Catholic church as proof of his faith. He believes his works will be good enough to get him into heaven. He ignored completely James 1:1 being written to the 12 tribes (Israel, not gentiles)

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (KJV)

He went on to say his faith is in 'holy scripture and the traditions of the Catholic Church'. Holy scripture is what the Catholics choose to believe from the Bible. And traditions? Reminds me of what Jesus told the Pharisees in
Mark 7:13

Mar7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (KJV)

I'll pick on the Catholic church a bit as an example that various denominations add, subtract, change, and ignore Gods' Word. My high school sweetheart was a Catholic. I was married to a Catholic for 5 years and saved 7 years after we divorced. I should also mention that I was raised in the Episcopal church and was even an accolyte. The Episcopal church is essentially the same as the Catholic church without the pope, nuns, and Latin.

Here’s a couple of snippets from the Catechism showing a couple of their teachings that are in contradiction to the Bible. I did a quick read to find them on the PDF I downloaded a few minutes ago.

44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

As contradictory to our being born sinners as one can get, in my opinion. Remember, religions are created by man and not always in agreement with Gods' intents.

58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel. The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek a figure of Christ - and the upright "Noah, Daniel, and Job". Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to "gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad"

Here’s the Noahic covenant in Genesis 8:20-9:17 (only 8:20-22 shown for expediency) clearly contradicts the above. "Heights of sancity...according to the covenant with Noah"? What happened to Jesus Christ?

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. (KJV)

492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son". The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love"

Where does Gods’ Word say He enriched and blessed Mary more than any other created person?

And lastly (for the sake of brevity):

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature". By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

Calling Mary “The Mother of God” in the Catechism as well as the “Hail Mary” elevates here ABOVE God! Sound familiar? Isaiah 14:12-15

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Pre-teen/early-teen Catholics have the Catechism taught to them every week for several years outside of regular school hours…usually on Saturdays, if I recall the Catholic friends of mine while growing up. I’ll agree that the Roman Catholic Church is about as far away from Gods’ Word, especially Pauls’ writings as any ‘denominational church’, can get.

Every Christian denomination, even the independent fundamental Baptist church I was saved in almost 23 years ago and have been an active member ever since has a couple of surprises. I was surprised to learn a couple years ago when the birthday party for a friends’ 16 year old daughter could not be held in the church fellowship hall due to a bylaw prohibiting dancing. Say what??? Depending on context, dance and dancing is both condoned and condemned in the Old Testament. And, for what it’s worth, the DJ for the dance (or should it be AJ as he played downloaded audios on his computer plugged into an amplifier system – audio jockey?) that also played keyboard and sang was the music leader for our church!


Simply put, the further a church or denomination strays from Gods’ as-written Word, the less likely people there will be saved. I’ll pick on Joel Osteen for a moment…when’s the last time he presented the Gospel? All he preaches is ‘feel good’ Christianity ‘tickling the ears’ of those who listen. How many have been saved at that church? Very few, I suspect.

NewMusic said:

Okay Backlit, where did you get this statement from?

, "If light comes, and that light is set aside, or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject." 4SpiritualGifts 3.3

Click to expand...

Comes from one of a series of books written by Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts.

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So Adam and Eve's children are born how...., with a dead spirit? An inactive spirit? Or do all children have a spirit and it dies upon their own first sin?

Now you've got my attention. Flesh it out for me if you can.
God warned A&E that they would die the day they eat of the tree of knowledge. This wasn't intended as a warning to just a part of the person. They would wholly and fully die. The reason they didn't was because as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior. And they were separated from that very thing which have them life... The tree of life. Hence why there is no such thing as an immortal sinner. Before the fall, Adam and Eve were holy. They had no knowledge of sin. They disobeyed by allowing the natural desires of the flesh to control their appetites, and when they ate, they received knowledge of their sin, and they also 'knew' they were naked. Guilt and fear overcame them. They may have feared God would kill them. So they hid. Separated from the tree of life, they did eventually die, but the death of sleep from which they can wake up... Resurrect. The second death would only apply if they didn't repent.

Nor the following... Israel is asking the prophet, how have we offended? What is the answer...

KJV Jeremiah 16:10-12
10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what is our iniquity? or what is our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?
11 Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law;
12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

They were guilty and we're warned except they repent, certain evils would began them, not because they were tempted or born with fallen natures, but because they died upon those evil tendencies allowing lust and appetite to control them.

Jesus illustrated this in the NT. Speaking to the Pharisees...
KJV John 8:42-44
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He was condemning them not because they were born and had inherited a fallen sinful nature, but because they walked in harmony with that nature. They obeyed the inclinations of the evil hearts, and acted out their murderous hearts and lying minds. The focus was on ye will do.
Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
KJV James 1:13-15
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
We are born with lusts and desires and appetites, and 6000 years of moral degeneracy had preferred them to such a degree that they now control everything we do. Unless we walk in the Spirit.
KJV Romans 8:1-9
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What does it mean to be spiritually minded? Talk about heaven all the time? Be a philosopher? Join the new age movement?
No, it means we walk in faith. We trust God to accomplish in us what we cannot do for ourselves. The just shall live by faith. And that's how Jesus walked. He was born in the likeness of sinful man. Meaning He had the same appetites, and same fleshly carnal cravings we have, but not even by a thoughts for He cherish, entertain, or make them His own. He never sinned. He was born as we are, but being filled with the holy spirit from birth, not once did He give in to those cravings because He by example proved that if we walk as He walked, by faith in the Father, we too can overcome.