Where do people go when they die?

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Aunty Jane

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Sorry this is so long, but I believe that there was a lot to address....
I am not sure if you are going to be able to grasp this.
I have already explained the fact that Heaven and Hell as destinations are not part of the Jewish religion. So wanting to prove your belief in the Old Testament is a waste of time.
How can examining the scriptures be a waste of time. These were the very scriptures that Jesus himself and the apostles quoted from.

So if you wanting to harp on things that are irrelevant, I cannot help you.
I wasn't asking you to help me, I was asking you to understand that you have put all your beliefs into a box that is way too small to contain them unless you take all of scripture into account. You cannot ignore a major part of God's word and then treat it as if it is irrelevant.....who said it was irrelevant? Not Jesus...not the apostles...do you know better than they do?

I have already given you enough information to prove that the people...LOL...one of them being a God, believed in an eternal place of punishment and they described it with the most horrible terms that they knew....fire. It is all through the New Testament.

So lets go there and examine what Jesus said about this terrible place described in horrible terms that you think "they" spoke about....
I am assuming you mean "Gehenna"....so what is it? Where is it? and is anyone alive in that place?
What else does the Bible say about "fire" and its symbolism? How much of what it says is literal?

The New Testament was mostly written in Koine Greek with some Aramaic mixed in.
And a lot this I have already explained to you and if you cannot grasp it...that is it.
Its not a case of grasping anything....but it is about understanding what the Bible says....plain and simple.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Hades --- a Greek word --- cannot appear in the Old Testament because the Old Testament was written before the Greek language existed. So what is Hades? It is a little complex and I am sorry about that.
This is what my research uncovered....
It is apparent that you have forgotten about the Septuagint, which was...."the earliest translations of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, produced for the benefit of Greek-speaking Jews. Translation was begun in Egypt in the third century B.C.E. and was completed in the following century.


According to tradition, about 70 Jewish scholars embarked on the project—thus the designation Septuagint from the Latin Septuaginta, meaning “70.” The translation is commonly referred to as LXX, the Roman numerals for 70. Early manuscripts of the Septuagint use either Greek characters or the four Hebrew letters that make up the Tetragrammaton (YHWH in English) to render God’s name. After the translation of the Hebrew canon was completed, apocryphal writings were added to the Septuagint. However, there is no evidence that Christian Bible writers acknowledged the apocryphal writings by quoting from them, though they often quoted from canonical books in the Septuagint. Furthermore, some first-century Christians had a miraculous gift, enabling them to discern which Bible books were inspired.
(1 Corinthians 12:4, 10)

Today, the Septuagint is an important tool for studying and understanding the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it sheds light on the meaning of certain obscure Hebrew and Aramaic terms."

To say that "hades" is a Greek word that does not appear in the "Old Testament" is not quite accurate then, is it?
The Septuagint renders "Sheol" (Ecclesiastes 9:10) as "hades". So we have a reference there that Sheol is the equivalent of Hades.
For the ancient Jews, sheol was the "abode of the dead"...the place where all the dead reside....the common grave of mankind.

Eccl 9:5, 6 in the Septuagint is translated..."For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.
6 also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, have now perished..."

V 10 continues..."Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest."
So "sheol/hades" is the resting place for all the dead...it is not a place of conscious torment, but a place where there is no consciousness at all.
"The dead know nothing"...even their emotions are non existent.....not even love survives death.

The Apostles were tasked with writing the New Testament in Greek, mostly, and it was a Pagan language. The Greek language was developed by a culture that had a different view on morality and limited theological terms. So the Apostles had to take Greek words of close definitions and adjust them by the context of how they were used. Definitions on the fly!
Or they used the Septuagint to help them with their terminology and definitions.....not on the fly at all. The common language of the day in the first century Bible lands as you know, was Koine Greek....most Jewish people must have been able to speak both languages. It was a blended society under Roman domination.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Hades was translated into more modern languages as Hell. But actually Hades is a Greco-Roman god….that presided over a realm called Hades that was not as much a place of torture but as an underworld prison. It was closest Greek word the Apostles could come up with to represent a place of eternal punishment.
What the church did to sheol/hades is definitely nothing like what Jesus taught. But we already know that Jesus foretold an apostasy that would lead to a counterfeit form of Christianity being promoted by the devil....he found fertile ground to sown his seeds. All manner of twisting of the scriptures took root. The adoption of false religious ideas concerning the dead and the places they would go to, are the product of fertile pagan imaginations inspired by the devil rather than anything Jesus taught.

Gehenna the Aramaic name for a section of the Valley of Hinnom was a Roman trash dump that was kept on fire intentionally for sanitation purposes ….it was used as an analogy of Hell.
It was used as a means to help Jews understand what happens when they disobey God and are abandoned by him.
The Pharisees were wicked men, completely incorrigible and doomed as far as Jesus was concerned. He did not have a good thing to say about them. In fact he told them that they would not be able to "flee from the judgment of Gehenna". (Matthew 23:33)

What did Jesus' Jewish audience understand him to mean? The Jews believed in resurrection, not immortality of the soul, so how did Gehenna fit in with that view?

The fires of Gehenna were the final destination for the wicked. It was a literal place with literal fire and maggots, but Jesus reference had a deeper application. To a Jew, their final resting place had to identify them and their family lineage (go to any Jewish cemetery and see how ornate and elaborate their burial tombs are.) For a jew to have their body cast into Gehenna meant no possibility of a resurrection. No burial tomb to them, meant that God would not remember them in order to resurrect them. So it isn't a reference to a life of punishment after death, but the finality of it. The Bible presents everlasting life as a contrast with everlasting death.....opposites.
When Messiah's Kingdom came...those in Gehenna would not be part of it. So you see, the OT was still very much in Jesus' teachings.

Shoal is a Hebrew/ Israelite / Jewish belief, but it is not well defined. For the most part they believe everyone goes there. For the Old Testament Jews Shoal was the final destination, since Yahweh did not promise them Heaven or threaten them with “Hell.” Christians more or less just dropped the belief in Shoal but there is no biblical reason to believe it no longer exists or is not a possible destination.
Yes....the Jews over time changed their beliefs concerning sheol to include immortality of the soul, adopted from the pagan Greeks.
It was never part of their spiritual education. There were only two choices that God set before his people...."Life or Death" (Deuteronomy 30:19)....that's it. No heaven or hell.
Jesus never spoke of heaven or hell as opposite destinations.

It’s about a 400 year period between the Testaments and suddenly we have a devil and Heaven and Hell and a Lake of Fire that where possible destinations for people. Now for anyone that is paying attention, they should be asking themselves….What happened!!!
An interesting 400 years they proved to be.....speaking of "the great day of God the Almighty" God's prophets had warned the Israelites that they needed to work on their obedience to him before that dreadful day came......those not found worthy would be annihilated, but those found faithful would live to enjoy what came after that cleansing of the earth.
God did not send any more prophets to Israel during those 400 years because their ways were fully set in them to do bad.....God's prophets were always treated badly, so the last prophet God sent was his own Son. (Matthew 21:33-41)...and they killed him. (Matthew 23:37-39)
Israel as a nation lost her place in the kingdom...though individual Jews and people from all nations were welcome. (Acts 10:34-35)

Well a lot happened, but Fundamentalism does not cover that. Generally what they do is try to Christianize the Old Testament to compensate.
What Christendom has done to the word of God is IMO, disgraceful! Portraying Jehovah as some petulant despot who will roast people alive in flames forever if they displease him....disgusting! What a horrible character assassination!

But still since the Jews were looking for a human warlord messiah king…the advent of Satan may have made that impractical and it would take a God to straighten things out.
The "adversary" was always in Jewish scripture....Jesus identified the original serpent in the garden as satan the devil. (Revelation 12:7-12) He was nobody new to the Jews, but he was just never called satan the devil.

So the question of were do we go after we die….bottom line we do not know. You can say the grave. Some speculate that is it Shoal. Some believe you go to Heaven or Hell before resurrection and Judgment Day….which would not make any sense. Paul refers to it as sleep so where ever we go, we maybe unconscious.
Well, I beg to differ on that because the scriptures tell us exactly who goes where and for what purpose.....how can you not know this if you have studied the scriptures as well as you claim.....I believe that you know your own beliefs....but the truth is not all just contained in the NT....you are missing so much by cutting the OT out of your beliefs IMO....
 
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Grailhunter

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How can examining the scriptures be a waste of time.
I did not say that? So strike one! If you are the type of person that twist what I say this conversation will end. And I will mark you down as someone that I will never talk to.

I explained this very simply.....the Jews of the Old Testament did not believe in a devil or a Hell. God never talked to anyone in the Old Testament about a devil or warn them about a devil and He threatened them with Hell. Modern Jews do not believe in the devil or a Hell so why try to prove that there is not a Hell by looking in the Old Testament...

The devil and Hell are issues of the New Testament. Now if you are Jew or a Jehovah's Wittiness then that would be your argument.
Hell is not in the Old Testament and the Jehovah's Witnesses rewrote the Bible to support that belief.

I wasn't asking you to help me, I was asking you to understand that you have put all your beliefs into a box that it way too small to contain them unless you take all of scripture into account. You cannot ignore a major part of God's word and then treat it as if it is irrelevant.....who said it was irrelevant? Not Jesus...not the apostles...do you know better than they do?

I am not ignoring anything. I am not in a box, I am not a Fundamentalist. Now as far as a religion and taking "all scriptures as a formulated belief" That would entail mixing Judaism with Christianity....the people that attacked Paul's ministry.

So lets go there and examine what Jesus said about this terrible place described in horrible terms that you think "they" spoke about....
I am assuming you mean "Gehenna"....so what is it? Where is it? and is anyone alive in that place?
What else does the Bible say about "fire" and its symbolism? How much of what it says is literal?

Christ used Gehenna as analogy of Hell....the eternal fire. Alive? Define alive in Heaven or Hell.
How much does the Bible say about "fire" is literal. You wearing my patience thin! I have already explained this.
Spiritual thing and places....People ask why do we not know more about Heaven or Hell, it is an age old question. It is not in the Bible for Heaven or Hell. Why? The question of why we do not know more about Heaven and Hell is not Bible. So the answer to that is speculative. So there is nothing there to argue about from the perspective of the scriptures.

Is it that Christ did not want to confuse people about things that are uncomprehendible? There maybe things about Heaven and Hell that we do not have words to describe.

Christ and the Apostles described the eternal place of punishment with fire. Is it fire? Or is it much worst and fire was the worst thing way they could describe it?

Its not a case of grasping anything....but it is about understanding what the Bible says....plain and simple.
And that is where you are having problems.
 

Grailhunter

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It is apparent that you have forgotten about the Septuagint, which was...."the earliest translations of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, produced for the benefit of Greek-speaking Jews. Translation was begun in Egypt in the third century B.C.E. and was completed in the following century.


According to tradition, about 70 Jewish scholars embarked on the project—thus the designation Septuagint from the Latin Septuaginta, meaning “70.” The translation is commonly referred to as LXX, the Roman numerals for 70. Early manuscripts of the Septuagint use either Greek characters or the four Hebrew letters that make up the Tetragrammaton (YHWH in English) to render God’s name. After the translation of the Hebrew canon was completed, apocryphal writings were added to the Septuagint. However, there is no evidence that Christian Bible writers acknowledged the apocryphal writings by quoting from them, though they often quoted from canonical books in the Septuagint. Furthermore, some first-century Christians had a miraculous gift, enabling them to discern which Bible books were inspired.
(1 Corinthians 12:4, 10)

Today, the Septuagint is an important tool for studying and understanding the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it sheds light on the meaning of certain obscure Hebrew and Aramaic terms."

You error greatly if you do not think I know all about this.

To say that "hades" is a Greek word that does not appear in the "Old Testament" is not quite accurate then, is it?
The Septuagint renders "Sheol" (Ecclesiastes 9:10) as "hades". So we have a reference there that Sheol is the equivalent of Hades.
For the ancient Jews, sheol was the "abode of the dead"...the place where all the dead reside....the common grave of mankind.

So many translations that are error ridden. The Greek translation, translated the Hebrew texts into Greek. And yes there were errors. And as time went on more and more errors were added. God's name at one time appeared nearly 6,000 time in the Hebrew
Bible. Then it was entirely removed and replaced with the tetragrammaton. Then that was removed and replaced with God or LORD, which constituted around 28,000 modifications if I remember correctly.

Or they used the Septuagint to help them with their terminology and definitions

I know it is a hard thing to keep things straight with time periods....but the Septuagint is about the Old Testament. And they did use some of those definitions and those that translated the Hebrew were looking for similar words in the Greek. But Christianity is a spiritual religion, Judaism is not that spiritual so Christ and the Apostles were talking of the things...religious concepts that did not appear in the Old Testament. Using a language that is simply not that religious oriented.
 

Ezra

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This is what my research uncovered....
It is apparent that you have forgotten about the Septuagint, which was...."the earliest translations of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, produced for the benefit of Greek-speaking Jews. Translation was begun in Egypt in the third century B.C.E. and was completed in the following century.


According to tradition, about 70 Jewish scholars embarked on the project—thus the designation Septuagint from the Latin Septuaginta, meaning “70.” The translation is commonly referred to as LXX, the Roman numerals for 70. Early manuscripts of the Septuagint use either Greek characters or the four Hebrew letters that make up the Tetragrammaton (YHWH in English) to render God’s name. After the translation of the Hebrew canon was completed, apocryphal writings were added to the Septuagint. However, there is no evidence that Christian Bible writers acknowledged the apocryphal writings by quoting from them, though they often quoted from canonical books in the Septuagint. Furthermore, some first-century Christians had a miraculous gift, enabling them to discern which Bible books were inspired.
(1 Corinthians 12:4, 10)

Today, the Septuagint is an important tool for studying and understanding the text of the Hebrew Scriptures, and it sheds light on the meaning of certain obscure Hebrew and Aramaic terms."

To say that "hades" is a Greek word that does not appear in the "Old Testament" is not quite accurate then, is it?
The Septuagint renders "Sheol" (Ecclesiastes 9:10) as "hades". So we have a reference there that Sheol is the equivalent of Hades.
For the ancient Jews, sheol was the "abode of the dead"...the place where all the dead reside....the common grave of mankind.

Eccl 9:5, 6 in the Septuagint is translated..."For the living will know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing, and there is no longer any reward to them; for their memory is lost.
6 also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, have now perished..."

V 10 continues..."Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest."
So "sheol/hades" is the resting place for all the dead...it is not a place of conscious torment, but a place where there is no consciousness at all.
"The dead know nothing"...even their emotions are non existent.....not even love survives death.


Or they used the Septuagint to help them with their terminology and definitions.....not on the fly at all. The common language of the day in the first century Bible lands as you know, was Koine Greek....most Jewish people must have been able to speak both languages. It was a blended society under Roman domination.
FALSE DOCTRINE HAD WE LIVED IN O.T ERA YOU WOULD BE TOOK OUT AND STONED TO DEATH
 

Grailhunter

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What the church did to sheol/hades is definitely nothing like what Jesus taught. But we already know that Jesus foretold an apostasy that would lead to a counterfeit form of Christianity being promoted by the devil....he found fertile ground to sown his seeds. All manner of twisting of the scriptures took root. The adoption of false religious ideas concerning the dead and the places they would go to, are the product of fertile pagan imaginations inspired by the devil rather than anything Jesus taught.

And here is your error.

It was used as a means to help Jews understand what happens when they disobey God and are abandoned by him.
The Pharisees were wicked men, completely incorrigible and doomed as far as Jesus was concerned. He did not have a good thing to say about them. In fact he told them that they would not be able to "flee from the judgment of Gehenna". (Matthew 23:33)

What did Jesus' Jewish audience understand him to mean? The Jews believed in resurrection, not immortality of the soul, so how did Gehenna fit in with that view?

The fires of Gehenna were the final destination for the wicked. It was a literal place with literal fire and maggots, but Jesus reference had a deeper application. To a Jew, their final resting place had to identify them and their family lineage (go to any Jewish cemetery and see how ornate and elaborate their burial tombs are.) For a jew to have their body cast into Gehenna meant no possibility of a resurrection. No burial tomb to them, meant that God would not remember them in order to resurrect them. So it isn't a reference to a life of punishment after death, but the finality of it. The Bible presents everlasting life as a contrasted with everlasting death.....opposites.
When Messiah's Kingdom came...those in Gehenna would not be part of it. So you see, the OT was still very much in Jesus' teachings.

As I said it was an analogy.


What Christendom has done to the word of God is IMO, disgraceful! Portraying Jehovah as some petulant despot who will roast people alive in flames forever if they displease him....disgusting! What a horrible character assassination!

I understand your issues with this.....Reading your words is like being at a Jehovah's Wittiness service. My aunt was Jehovah's Witness and I have worked with families as an interventionist to save those from the religion.

Well, I beg to differ on that because the scriptures tell us exactly who goes where and for what purpose.....how can you not know this if you have studied the scriptures as well as you claim.....I believe that you know your own beliefs....but the truth is not all just contained in the NT....you are missing so much by cutting the OT out of your beliefs IMO....

What I was addressing was that people have different views about were you immediately go after death. Again I am going to warn you...if you twist what I say this conversation will come to an end. I do not tolerate that kind of people. I never said that all truth is only contained in the New Testament. We are talking about Hell...that information is not going to be in the Old Testament....period.
 

charity

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Q) Where do people go to when they die?

Hello @MatthewG

The soul is not immortal, it can and does die (Ezekiel 18:14). There is only One Who has immortality as we are told in 1 Timothy 6:14-16.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the body (which is made of dust) goes back to dust, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it, so man ceases to be a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Only the power of the resurrection can quicken the dead to life again, that they may once more become living souls (Matthew 10:28 - 'hell'='the grave').

* Throughout the Old Testament God refers to the grave as a place of rest for those awaiting resurrection (Psalms 6:5) , such as Job (Job 14:13), who believed that His redeemer lives and that he (Job) would (in his flesh) one day see Him (Job 19:25).

* That there is no consciousness in death is also made clear in such passages as, Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 31:17; Psalms 88:11.

* Yet by God's reckoning the believer throughout time is reckoned to 'sleep': for he has the promise of life in Christ Jesus (Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:17; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Thessalonians 4:14), and in God's eyes they are not dead, but living (Matthew 22:32).

* All men await the judgement of God, who will judge justly and apportion life or death according to His knowledge of the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:16). Until then man remains in the dust. Only, 'in Christ,' is there no condemnation (Romans 8:1).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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MatthewG

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Q) Where do people go to when they die?

Hello @MatthewG

The soul is not immortal, it can and does die (Ezekiel 18:14). There is only One Who has immortality as we are told in 1 Timothy 6:14-16.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the body (which is made of dust) goes back to dust, and the spirit (or breath of life) goes back to God Who gave it, so man ceases to be a living soul (Genesis 2:7). Only the power of the resurrection can quicken the dead to life again, that they may once more become living souls (Matthew 10:28 - 'hell'='the grave').

* Throughout the Old Testament God refers to the grave as a place of rest for those awaiting resurrection (Psalms 6:5) , such as Job (Job 14:13), who believed that His redeemer lives and that he (Job) would (in his flesh) one day see Him (Job 19:25).

* That there is no consciousness in death is also made clear in such passages as, Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 31:17; Psalms 88:11.

* Yet by God's reckoning the believer throughout time is reckoned to 'sleep': for he has the promise of life in Christ Jesus (Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:17; 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Corinthians 11:30; 1 Thessalonians 4:14), and in God's eyes they are not dead, but living.

* All men await the judgement of God, who will judge justly and apportion life or death according to His knowledge of the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:16). Until then man remains in the dust. Only, 'in Christ,' is there no condemnation (Romans 8:1).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello Charity, I don’t under this whole the soul is not immortal teaching. Wouldn’t the spirit be the soul that is give if God knitted is in the womb? I’m not so sure, because I believe personally for myself along with all other people when they die that mind(heart)/will/emotion of the person is what goes to be judged which is soul of the person.

You have shared scripture and have no problems with scripture, just would like to know where this teaching originated from.
 

charity

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Hello Charity, I don’t under this whole the soul is not immortal teaching. Wouldn’t the spirit be the soul that is give if God knitted is in the womb? I’m not so sure, because I believe personally for myself along with all other people when they die that mind/will/emotion of the person is what goes to be judged.

You have shared scripture and have no problems with scripture, just would like to know where this teaching originated from.
'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'

(Gen 2:7)

Hello @MatthewG,

God says in Ezekiel 18:4:- 'Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.' so the soul is not immortal.

* In his misery Job talks of his 'soul' in relation to himself as a whole man in Job 7:15:-
'
So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.'

* The spirit (ie., the breath of life) goes back to God who gave it, as in Genesis 2:7 (above).

* Judgment will take place at the end of the age. It is then that the fires of Gehenna that our Lord refers to will come into play. Until then the dead know nothing, for there is no consciousness in death. Although the believer is spoken of as being 'asleep in Jesus' (1 Thessalonians 4:14), for by God's reckoning he is not dead but living, for he has the promise of life in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 
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stunnedbygrace

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There is a vested interest even though it be macabre for those who insist on God burning certain people for eternity. Because of this I find it pointless to debate with them. Their vision of God and their theology stays primitive and reflects more of their own characters than God's.

They have effectually made God in their own image!
But see, that’s what I can’t figure out and it drives me nuts - what is the vested interest??
 

charity

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MatthewG

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'And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.'

(Gen 2:7)

Hello @MatthewG,

God says in Ezekiel 18:4:- 'Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.' so the soul is not immortal.

* The spirit (ie., the breath of life) goes back to God who gave it, as in Genesis 2:7 (above).

* Judgment will take place at the end of the age. It is then that the fires of Gehenna that our Lord refers to will come into play. Until then the dead know nothing, for there is no consciousness in death. Although the believer is spoken of as being 'asleep in Jesus' (1 Thessalonians 4:14), for by God's reckoning he is not dead but living, for he has the promise of life in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Interesting but still don’t understand it.

Where are all the spirit of life’s going back to God going? To heaven? What about the faithless?
 

quietthinker

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But see, that’s what I can’t figure out and it drives me nuts - what is the vested interest??
For one it's pride in the justification of their point of view and for two, its the insistence of superimposing their need for revenge onto God....a revenge that mirrors the characteristics of Satan himself.
 
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MatthewG

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Why give us a soul if it’s just going to die, I don’t understand that. Is it the mind, will, and emotion that dies? Is it the body that dies?
 

MatthewG

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Why does it seem like this disembodied spirit in Sheol seem to be alive? Remember the separation of Abraham and the rich man?
 

MatthewG

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Kind of depressing to think that our soul dies.

Cheers
 
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charity

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Interesting but still don’t understand it.
Where are all the spirit of life’s going back to God going?
To heaven?
What about the faithless?
Hello @MatthewG,

Our spirit, or 'the breath of life' which energises us, goes back to God Who gave it. It is life giving breath, not a disembodied spirit. Our Lord Himself commended His spirit to God too, in Luke 23:46.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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