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As you already know, it is important to note that Paul and others realized that the ultimate foundation of our perfection for our salvation was laid down by Christ. And then by Paul himself and other apostles as in the form of their actions and their spoken and written words of God, inspired to and through these men's lives. We must all, as believers, as we are compelled by the Spirit to do so, is to build upon and 'work out' or upon this same foundation for salvation already established. We all build at different paces and speed. The first to built the highest building of salvation has not necessarily the most robust that can weather the storms however -standing up to the test of judgement and spiritual scrutiny.
We are however not perfect in mind and heart so from time to time we do stray, and begin to add on layers of thoughts, words and actions that detract, waste our time and energies, that are useless for our spiritual progress and maturity on our journey to perfection and the realization of the increased spiritual knowledge and the wisdom of our salvation we have built upon.
You pointed out 1 Corinthians 3 as an example of all this...
And I particular like you analogies in building this foundation in our lives today. wrong tools => doctrines of men ( and their traditions and false teachings), wrong materials => carnal mind ( our selfish desires and pride and accepting other worldly views as truth). These are all prone to potential, and real temptations that can lead to even sin and at least vain delusions of knowing the truth, when we are actually believing and living (in) lies. This stunts our spiritual growth and we are in need of self-examination or periodic maintenance. Are we actually producing spiritual fruits as we once did, for example...
So from time to time we must self-inspect the building we have created and it is always in-work, for cracks and weathering; especially when the storms have subsided or calm is present. Take a moment to dwell on 'our' house and would our Lord be pleased with it.
We must look at every layer and area of our personal building, inside and on the outside measured by the standards with the truth we have within us, and from the word of God and prayer. Then to replace those areas with the right materials and by using the proper tools for this constant spiritual repair action.
Bless you H2S
Either you deliberately evaded answering my post, or missed the BL of it. Did this specific person in Chapter 2 verse 20, who had intimate knowledge of our Lord, and this epignosis is also used in other places in scripture as you pointed out, ever get spiritualized and infused with in/with it and apply it to their hearts to become saved? No, he did not.
You see in 2 Peter Chapter 1 as you also pointed out, Peter's audience were Christians who applied this same epignosis to their hearts and were saved. He speaks about now using this epignosis they possessed and they used from the their hearts for their salvation, to now not just sit upon it but to build upon it. In contrast, Chapter 2 is about an unsaved person that also possess this same epignosis and does not take it to heart!
And as Peter then said in verse 22, as a proverb, he returned to his own vomit and ways again.
He was that close and never became saved.
He was counted as an unbeliever and a false teacher.
You see Peter in Chapter 1 was saying use this epignosis that you became saved with because there are those that have the same epignosis as you and never were saved (Chapter 2). You now have the opportunity to build and mature it further. And in Chapter 1 verse 5 he cites some of these: to add to one's faith goodness...and then with goodness, (more) knowledge...to self-control.. You see the person in Chapter 2 verse (20-22) could NEVER increase his epignosis beyond what he already possessed because he lacked the Spirit of salvation or truth of Christ. Christians however are meant to built upon their entry level epignosis and not sit idly by and be contend with drinking milk and be proud they are 'just' saved.
These non-believers with the same entry level epignosis of truth and righteousness as the saved, from the holy command in the gospel essentially, THESE TURNED THEIR BACK ON IT (the gospel) as it is stated in verse 21b. They never trusted Christ for their salvation!
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Not addressed to me -- will you be offended if I respond?
What is the goal of our testing? 2Cor13:3 says "test yourselves, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith" --- and if we find ourselves "adokimos/unapproved", what should we do? Our works do not save us; but they tell us where we are in Christ (or not!). It's the same message in 2Pet1:5-11 --- it lists good qualities (which are not optional!), and says "He who lacks these qualities is blind or shortsighted, having FORGOTTEN purification from former sins" (he was saved, but now is not) --- therefore (don't BE like this bad example) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election steadfast; as long as these qualities are yours you are useful, and you will not stumble (ptaio-become-WRETCHED) ...in THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided to you!"
Some think that if we have godly qualities the eisodos-gates-of-heaven will be abundantly provided, and they will be sparsely provided for the wickedly-saved.
(Seriously?)
No, it's "abundantly, or not-at-all".
Our fruits tell us if we are in Christ (saved), or not. We must be diligent to make our salvation steadfast. This is clearly stated, isn't it?
Is "carnal", saved? Those Can we "fail-the-test, but don't worry you'll still make it"?
Remember satan's lie to Eve?
"Don't worry, you won't really die."
Yes, we can. (And we're at the same risk of deception-away-from-Jesus as Eve experienced, 2Cor11:3!)
You are right, but I think you are underestimating the peril. See 2Pet1:5-11...
The "tools for repair", are always "grow close to Jesus"; the closer we are to Him, the more His righteousness becomes ours, the more our fruits are godly, and the farther we are from sin.
I've been studying this for decades actually. But I do continue to see new things!
The questions I've asked you, they are very particular, very precise, and for a reason. Precise and direct answers are what I'm hoping for.
Much love!
You chose which you do that to.
Will you do that here?
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Or do you now know?
Much love!
No worries, all good. I was also thinking of these verses as you wrote when I responded to H2S. They are applicable
You can countermand God?
I'm surprised at your answer. To be clear, what God claims ownership of, you can claim different, and you believe your claim will stand?
Many people have a very different view of salvation that I do it seems.
There seems to be this idea that we transact our salvation with God day by day. Day by day we see if we will remain reborn, remain in grace, remain saved. That we're constantly trying to appease a God Who is perfectly willing to toss us away.
My idea is that we are recreated righteous beings, children of God, His family. That having rescued us from sin and death, God now has what He wants, and will keep the purchased possession.
Much love!
Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Is this true? Or will you add an "IF"?
Much love!
On what do you base this assessment? On the external principle of, "If they're not saved NOW, then they were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!" Where is that in Scripture? It's not in 1Jn2:19, which connects to 2Jn1:7-9 --- if someone does not watch himself against deceivers he CAN "go out from us" (go too far!) and not have God! Besides, a few verses after 1Jn2:19, is 26-28 --- we are to guard ourselves against deceivers lest we shrink-in-shame at His return. Is "shrink-in-shame", compatible with "saved"? No. Is it a real possibility for those who do not guard against deceivers?
Yes.
Again, WHY is it an "unsaved person"? Those in verses 20-22 are NOT the "false-teachers-and-prophets", the false never cease from sin. Never. They don't escape anything. The FALSE, seek to entice the TRUE -- KJV "ontos-apopheugo-truly-escaped".
APAK, if someone is "never-saved" but is able to "escape defilements", then he does it without Jesus (although Jesus said "apart from Me you can do nothing"). Why do we even need Jesus if we can escape defilements all by ourselves, even for a brief time?
As I said, those in 2Pet2:20-22 are truly escaped, and fall back into sin (become unsaved); that is the only way they are worse than before they were saved. (If they were never saved, the last unsaved-state would be the SAME as the first, and the middle state, ot could not be worse!)
Do you disagree?
Do you remember the "parable of the soils", in Luke8? Actually, it's not "parable of the soils"; it's parable of the PLANTS. The image of "fruitful-plants-growing-on-good-soil" is applied AFTER they persevere, and the image of "withering-plants-on-bad-soil" is applied AFTER they fall. God does not make the soil good or bad (that's Calvinism), they choose all by themslves. And it's the same in 2Pet2 --- the IMAGE of "dogs and pigs", is applied AFTER they persevere and fall.
To be clear, men do not escape defilements and come back to their vomit and mire because they are continuously dogs and pigs --- dogs and pigs do not escape vomit and mire, they never want to; there was a time where these people were NOT dogs and pigs, they were only CALLED such because of the vomit and mire in which they dwelt!
Any way to dispute that?
The unsaved cannot escape sin, they don't have the power; that's why we need Jesus...
See? "The false prophets and false teachers, who are blemishes, dark storms, NEVER CEASE FROM SIN, they nevertheless WANT to escape DEFILEMENTS and succeed for a while WITHOUT JESUS!'
No, the false, seek to entice the truly-escaped BACK INTO sin. Verse 18.
STOP -- this is a major contention with me. It does not say "add to one's (saved) faith" (as if there is a saved faith WITHOUT godly qualities), it says "supply IN your faith"!
The godly qualities are not optional! There is no such thing as "carnal-Christian"! Until we establish and accept this absolute in Scripture, it does no good to discuss the verses.
I look forward to how you see 2Pet1:18, "the FALSE, seek to entice the TRULY ESCAPED back into defilements!"
Then they pulled off a grand self-righteousness-stunt and didn't need Jesus to "escape sin". I know you don't believe that...
What does it mean to you to be "saved"? What does "justification" mean to you? "Reconciliation"? I have a feeling that these words mean something very different to you than they do to me.
Much love!
Well be easy on me...I am always on my phone responding and I wrote my post in a very short-story version of what I saw during meditation. I could have elaborated more but long posts are discouraged and many members won't read them.
Hi, @marks ; @Heart2Soul Doctrine is important, indeed; and what I do strongly feel is that being able to enjoy wonderful chapters such as Romans 8 can be such an encouragement!
Sometimes a view is lengthy and sophisticated (like thinking the FALSE escape in 2Pet2). No, the false never escape, but entice the truly-escaped.
Reformed Theology is the worst in terms of "complex doctrine", it's an entire structure comprised of at least 61 verses -- it has clean walls, sparkling windows, shiny chrome accents; but verse by verse we pull "bricks" out of the building and discover they STAY out (they do not promote "Sovereign Predestined Salvation"); eventually we expose the four foundation passages, and discover those also do not teach "predestined salvation". And then all of the "don't-fall-from-salvation" verses make sense.
(Like what we discussed in Hebrews, starting with 3:8, and 3:12-14...)
I hope I have engaged your questions. I get pulled in six different directions at once (mostly from the caretaking, which I don't mind...)
Is the discipline of the Lord effective to His children? According to this passage, yes it is, always,
Hebrews 12:1-13 KJV
1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
So then how is the child to be lost?
The Father will discipline as needed, and His discipline is always effective. How then will you be lost, if you are INDEED His child?
Much love!
Hebrews 12:1-13 KJV
1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5) And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
So then how is the child to be lost?
The Father will discipline as needed, and His discipline is always effective. How then will you be lost, if you are INDEED His child?
Much love!
For that to happen, we need to look at those passages within their context, and stay focused on them until the meaning is shown.
Much love!
My thoughts as well, why is there a need to be chastined if we are supposedly sinless?
@Heart2Soul All part of the purging/pruning John 15, abiding in the vine experience, right?
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