OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

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Gadgetere

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I don't consider myself Born Again,
Hi, JohnPaul, welcome.

What do you think "born-again" means? In Rom8:15, "we receive the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!" (Literally, "Daddy!") The word gennao simply means "begotten". John3:7 "you must be born again"; now, 1Jn5:18, born-of-God is begotten-of-God, gennao. Rom9:8, "It is not children of the flesh (Abraham's descendants) who are children of God, but children of the Promise are regarded as descendants."

because I've always believed in Christ,
Salvation is much more than "belief"; James2:19 says that even demons believe. Salvation is a union with the real person of Jesus, He consciously indwells the believer, as does the Spirit. Do you accept Gal2:20?
and though I was baptized Catholic and raised Catholic, I choose not to go by any denomination,so by my belief and understanding I've always been saved, so there is no need for me to be Born Again.
1Jn5:11-13 states that he who has the Son (echo-possesses), has eternal life; we may know. If you have received the physical persons of Jesus and the Spirit (Rom6:5 "united/joined/grown-together"), if you fellowship with all three (enter behind the veil into the very presence of the Almighty), then you are already born-again, begotten, adopted.

Do you understand?

Some Catholics have errant views; anyone who says "salvation by faith works and the sacraments", does not understand salvation as Scripture (including the Catholic Bible!) teaches it. But many Catholics are saved, Spirit-filled, and will be brothers and sisters with us when Jesus returns.

And while the Catholic Church has its many errors such as Idolatry, It is the Catholic Church that taught me about Christ, so for that I am grateful for the Catholic Church, but God gave me wisdom and I saw the wrong in what the Catholic Church does so I chose to just label myself Christian and need not listen to man but God.
Some Catholic errors are not condemnable. Scripture does not promote a "Pope" -- Jesus did not say "on Peter I will build My church", the verse actually says, "You are PETER (little stone), and on this PETRA (bedrock! Jesus Himself!) I will build My church." For no other foundation can be laid except Jesus. (citations on request.)

But having a pope, causes no one to perish.

Praying to saints as intercessors does not violate "there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus"; at worst it is simply useless, it causes no one to perish.

If we agree that salvation is a gift of grace received by faith, and that we fellowship with the persons of God, we are truly indwelt and surrendered to God's mastery, then we are brothers -- whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or any other true believer.

Do you understand, brother?

:)
 

Gadgetere

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Look, you do not deserve anymore of my time because of this very deceptive, untruthful and childish response.
You are employing several invalid "debate tactics", including ad-hominem, impugning the speaker.

I'm not here to fight with you and respond to your twisted words that you generated, not I. Do not even attempt to place YOUR thoughts and YOUR words into my writings again. They are yours alone and claim them as such. You sound so desperate and immature in your failed cause here.
I have cited precise and detailed verses, with complete connections; if you could respond showing how I am mis-quoting or mis-understanding the verses, you would.

What you clearly state, is "I surrender, I cannot refute what you say".

I never once thought or said "they were strong enough to escape defilements without help from Jesus";"
You stated "those who escape were never truly saved" (you have to, else admit that a truly-saved-person, can become unsaved.) Therefore, they DID escape defilements, but they WERE NOT saved and escaped without Jesus.

If you think an unsaved person can escape defilements with Jesus' power, then please explain to everyone how that works, with Scripture support?

You imposed your own primitive understanding and stamp on it (verse 18b).

YOU make this up for public consumption to satisfy your own confused mind to what part of verse 18b means to you, and in an attempt to ridicule me for it.
No one ridiculed you; verse 18 says the false (who never cease from sin!), seek to entice the truly-escaped back into defilements. And context does not say they were ONLY "truly-escaped", it says they escaped defilements through the true knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus, word for word the same as ch1. What doctrine and loyalty is it that portends the exact same words especially in two adjacent chapters can be "saved" one place, but then "never-saved" in the other? If clear words inspired by God and written by Peter can't convince you, what can?

I'm done with you, and deservingly so.
I forget the name of that debate tactic; but every person reading this will know you cannot explain how the cited verses were used or understood wrongly.

I will pray for you, that something we have discussed will gnaw on your subconscious, and perhaps good will come of it.

May God bless you and me, and use both of us mightily in His great harvest.
 

marks

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If clear words inspired by God and written by Peter can't convince you, what can?
Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Much love!
 

Gadgetere

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I'm not talking about limited atonement.
I'm glad of that. Reformed Theology (in spite of denials by adherents) charges God with causality in sin, which is what made Jesus furious in Matt12.

You have a real allergy to my posts.
I'm s-s- (ah-CHOO!)
...sorry, why do you think that?

I'm talking about God's seal of ownership of you, ". . . the Holy Spirit, by which you are sealed unto the day of redemption". God declares His ownership of His children by His Holy Spirit Who is in them. And that this seal is to show His ownership until He comes to claim the purchased possession.
You quoted my citation of Heb3:8, 12-14, but you did not explain why it does not say what it says.

What is the most fundamental aspect of God, and His character?
God is love. (1Jn4:16)

Per 1Cor13:5, "love cannot demand its own way". And views like RT unwittingly cast God as demanding who loves Him back.

Look at Matt22:37 --- the greatest commandment is to love God. It has to be a commandment to which men can say "NO", or it's not a commandment at all.

So here is the big question between us --- you excellently recognize "atonement is unlimited" (Reformed Theology is wrong), all who receive Jesus gain the right to become children of God (Jn1:12-13). The question is, if we have free will to BEGIN being "in Christ", why does that free will not exist the next day too, and the next, and the next? Why are there so many verses that warn against becoming deceived away from Jesus? (1Tim4:1, Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 2Cor11:3, Heb12:25, to name only a few?)

My question to you is this. Can you steal from God that which He owns?
No. "Steal", akin to "force" -- see Jn10:26-28, "harpazo-force". No one can force us away from Jesus.

...but why are we warned not to be deceived by sin to falling away from God? James1:14-16, Heb3:12-14, and many others.
Your very self? My answer is simply, no, you cannot. What God owns, and has sealed as owned by Him, toward the intent to redeem that which He owns, take possession of, that's Him, not us, and we aren't other gods that can successfully compete against the one True God.
All right, back that with Scripture; and interact with the verses cited here -- are you willing?

Let's not deflect to something else. Let's look at this.

This question. Are you more powerful than God?
In your question is the presumption that "God has promised to preserve those who believe, they do not have the power to break His promise". What if God has not promised "unfallible faith", but permits men to love Him at first, and permits the same tomorrow, and the next day, and the next? Will you accept Robertson's commentary on Rom1:16-17, God's righteousness is revealed from faith-the-start to faith-the-goal (from beginning faith to ending faith)? Why does Peter say "receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation", and Jude says "building yourselves in holy faith, keep yourselves in God's love"? What do these verses mean? (1Pet1:9, Jude20-21)

What about James1:14-16, and Heb3:12-14? How do these verses not say that "we can be deceived away from Jesus, by sin"? How do Col2:6-8 and 2Pet3:17 not say "Human deceivers can lure us away from Jesus"? How does 1Tim4:1 not say "demons can deceive us away from Jesus"?

How does 2Cor11:3 not say that we can be deceived away from Jesus by satan, just as Eve was deceived by him in the Garden?

What do you think when you read these verses?
 
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Gadgetere

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Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
And what if we don't? Why does context say "lay aside the old (sinful) man, put on the new (righteous) man"?

3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Why does 2Tim2:11-13 cast "if-we-died" and "if-we-endure", with the alternative of "if-we-deny-Him" and "if-we-are-faithless"? How is the word, "BUT", not fully implied?

"If we died with Him, then we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
BUT --
if we deny Him He also will deny us, if we are faithless He remains faithful!"

Can we be "denying-Jesus, and faithlessly, saved"?

4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Please connect this with 1Jn2:26-28 --- we are warned against deceivers so that we not shrink-in-shame at His coming. Is "shrink-in-shame" conveyed as not really possible? Would it be "still saved"?

What do you think?
 

marks

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In your question is the presumption that "God has promised to preserve those who believe, they do not have the power to break His promise".
No. The Topic on this point is Ownership.

You own a car, you own a pencil, whatever.

I'm saying, God owns His children, and no one is more powerful then He is, to take them away from Him. And He has put His seal of ownership on them, "unto the day of redemption".

Just this one verse is so plainly stated to render this question settled.

Colossians 3, 1 John 3, on it goes, plainly stated. No, the born again will never die.

Much love!
 

marks

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Please connect this with 1Jn2:26-28 --- we are warned against deceivers so that we not shrink-in-shame at His coming. Is "shrink-in-shame" conveyed as not really possible? Would it be "still saved"?

What do you think?
I think that one does not negate the other.

And we use plainly stated to understand less plainly stated.

Much love!
 

michaelvpardo

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What about backsliders?

If you believe in OSAS, do you believe that God eventually draws all backsliders back to Him in these New Covenant times?

I mean it can and does definitely happen.

Whether if it's all or some, that's the question I want to ask you.
Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not plunder his resting place;
16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Proverbs 24:15-16
The question that I have for you is "Does God take responsibility for His "bride," or are we just on our own?"(I think that the answer is found in Hosea.)
 

Gadgetere

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Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
One passage does not overturn another; we must pursue understanding which includes them all. I know you agree with this...
 

Gadgetere

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No. The Topic on this point is Ownership.

You own a car, you own a pencil, whatever.

I'm saying, God owns His children, and no one is more powerful then He is, to take them away from Him. And He has put His seal of ownership on them, "unto the day of redemption".
Did you respond to the question of the Prodigal Son, Luke15? Did the errant boy ever cease being a son?

Just this one verse is so plainly stated to render this question settled.

Colossians 3, 1 John 3, on it goes, plainly stated. No, the born again will never die.
"Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are exposed, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not practice righteousness is not of God..." 1Jn3:9-10
So the question between us, is "can a saved person (who walks in righteousness and not in sin), ever return to unrighteousness?

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die." Ezk18:24
Is there anything that cancels what Ezekiel wrote, it doesn't apply to NT principles? It clearly says "a righteous man" (no one can be righteous apart from Jesus!) "can turn away from righteousness" --- doesn't it?

Now -- 1Jn3:7 says "whoever practices righteousness IS righteous, even as He is righteous"; and a righteous man can turn back to wickedness and all his righteousness will not be remembered. In what universe can that fit the idea of, "God owns His children and they can never be removed"?

Some read John10:26-28 as, "My sheep know My voice, ...and I give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one not even yourselves can pluck you from His hand."

The problem is, "NOT-EVEN-YOURSELVES" is a rewrite, John did not write it! If "All Scripture is inspired by God" (literally God-breathed), then if we rewrite it or add things in, it is no longer "inspired by God". Other verses like Heb3:12-14 and James1:15-16 must be included, which openly state "we can be deceived by sin to falling-away-from-God and spiritual death".

I posted several verses about being deceived away from Jesus; Heb3:12-13 says sin can do it, Col2:6-8 and 2Pet3:17 says wicked men can do it, and 1Tim4:1 says demons can do it. (2Cor11:3 says we are at the SAME RISK of being deceived away from Jesus by the devil, as Eve experienced in the Garden!) What are we to do with these verses? Mark them out? Pretend they aren't there? Stamp them with "NOT REALLY"? Not being insincere, our doctrines must include ALL of Scripture.

Don't they?
 

Gadgetere

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I think that one does not negate the other.

And we use plainly stated to understand less plainly stated.
John openly warns us against deceivers --- saying that we are to abide in Jesus, so that we not shrink-in-shame when He returns. Shrink-in-shame can only mean "not-abiding-in-Jesus-but-in-sin". Do you have anything else?

You say "we are reconciled to God forever, and no one can change that" (paraphrased). Please read this:


"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel..." Col1:21-23

We are reconciled to God through Jesus, IF WE CONTINUE in the faith and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope (1Tim1:1).

How could you or I make that into, "Our being reconciled does NOT condition upon our continuing in the faith and not being moved away from Jesus!"?

How could we do that?
 

Gadgetere

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Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; Do not plunder his resting place;
16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
Proverbs 24:15-16
The question that I have for you is "Does God take responsibility for His "bride," or are we just on our own?"(I think that the answer is found in Hosea.)
Hi, Michael. What do you think of my post 210? Can a man turn away from God and become unrighteous again? If he does, is he still saved?
 

Tong2020

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Hi, Michael. What do you think of my post 210? Can a man turn away from God and become unrighteous again? If he does, is he still saved?

Please allow me to comment.

<<<Can a man turn away from God and become unrighteous again?>>>

I would presume that “a man” refers to one who is a Christian, both nominal or at heart (true), as belonging to the Christian community in general.

Many a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative. But not the true Christians.

<<<If he does, is he still saved?>>>

This could only be applicable to the nominal Christians. They are only Christians by name. That being the case, the question becomes invalid, in that, they are not saved in the first place.

Regarding the true Christians, the question could only be but hypothetical and would remain to be so. For a true Christian, to be true, it necessitates that his believing and abiding is firm to the end. It could not be otherwise.

Tong
R4609
 

Gadgetere

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Please allow me to comment.
Your thoughts are welcome!

<<<Can a man turn away from God and become unrighteous again?>>>

I would presume that “a man” refers to one who is a Christian, both nominal or at heart (true), as belonging to the Christian community in general.

Many a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative. But not the true Christians.
What's your verse to support that? Can a "non-Christian", be righteous?

Exactly what is a "nominal-Christian" -- is that anything like a "carnal Christian"?

<<<If he does, is he still saved?>>>

This could only be applicable to the nominal Christians. They are only Christians by name. That being the case, the question becomes invalid, in that, they are not saved in the first place.
Have you been reading the posts here? I asserted a "Catch22".

Catch 22:
"If anyone is unsaved NOW, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!"

While that may be a pleasant thought, where is it in Scripture? We can't establish solid Scriptural dictate and exegesis with external precepts, can we?

Just for fun, let's jump into the Delorean and travel back in time, and have a chat with one of the early church fathers.

John Chrysostom on 2Corinthians 6:
“But what we beseech is that ye would receive the benefit and not reject the gift. Be persuaded therefore by us, and ‘receive not the grace in vain’. For lest they should think that this of itself is ‘reconciliation’, believing on Him that calleth; he adds these words, requiting that earnestness which respects the life. For, for one who hath been freed from sins and made a friend to wallow in the former things, is to return again unto enmity, and to ‘receive the grace in vain’, in respect of the life. For from ‘the grace’ we reap no benefit towards salvation if we live impurely; nay, we are even harmed, having this greater aggravation even of our sins, in that after such knowledge and such a gift we have gone back to our former vices.”

What do you think he meant?

Regarding the true Christians, the question could only be but hypothetical and would remain to be so. For a true Christian, to be true, it necessitates that his believing and abiding is firm to the end. It could not be otherwise.
Did you see the post on Heb3:8 and 12-14? Exactly who can be "hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God" (we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end)? Who is that? It says "brethren"; unsaved brethren? (Sincerely asking, no offense meant...)

What about Paul's letter to Galatia? Can one who is "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7), "KNOWN by God" (4:9), can such a one be "never-truly-saved-in-the-first-place"? Then if that one turns back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again (4:9), ending no longer in the Spirit but in the flesh (3:3), and therefore SEVERED/SEPARATED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE (5:4), is he still saved? How can we make it work?
 

Tong2020

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Your thoughts are welcome!
Thank you.

<<<Can a man turn away from God and become unrighteous again?>>>

I would presume that “a man” refers to one who is a Christian, both nominal or at heart (true), as belonging to the Christian community in general.

Many a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative. But not the true Christians.
What's your verse to support that? Can a "non-Christian", be righteous?

Exactly what is a "nominal-Christian" -- is that anything like a "carnal Christian"?

<<<What's your verse to support that?>>>

Support what? That a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative? I don’t think a verse is necessary to support this to be true. You will understand why after I address your question as to what a nominal Christian is.

<<<Can a "non-Christian", be righteous?>>>

If being righteous, you mean, the doing of works that are held as righteous works, such as helping the needy, and other so called charitable acts, the answer would be yes. But if you mean, being righteous in the sight of God, my answer would be a no.

<<<Exactly what is a "nominal-Christian" -- is that anything like a "carnal Christian"?>>>

A nominal Christian is one who is said to be a Christian (Believer in Christ), but only in name. Meaning, he isn’t a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.

The word “nominal” is not found in scriptures. But that is not to mean that there are no such nominal Christians, that is, Christians only in name.

<<<If he does, is he still saved?>>>

This could only be applicable to the nominal Christians. They are only Christians by name. That being the case, the question becomes invalid, in that, they are not saved in the first place.
Have you been reading the posts here? I asserted a "Catch22".

Catch 22:
"If anyone is unsaved NOW, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!"

While that may be a pleasant thought, where is it in Scripture? We can't establish solid Scriptural dictate and exegesis with external precepts, can we?

Just for fun, let's jump into the Delorean and travel back in time, and have a chat with one of the early church fathers.

John Chrysostom on 2Corinthians 6:
“But what we beseech is that ye would receive the benefit and not reject the gift. Be persuaded therefore by us, and ‘receive not the grace in vain’. For lest they should think that this of itself is ‘reconciliation’, believing on Him that calleth; he adds these words, requiting that earnestness which respects the life. For, for one who hath been freed from sins and made a friend to wallow in the former things, is to return again unto enmity, and to ‘receive the grace in vain’, in respect of the life. For from ‘the grace’ we reap no benefit towards salvation if we live impurely; nay, we are even harmed, having this greater aggravation even of our sins, in that after such knowledge and such a gift we have gone back to our former vices.”

What do you think he meant?

Did you see the post on Heb3:8 and 12-14? Exactly who can be "hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God" (we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end)? Who is that? It says "brethren"; unsaved brethren? (Sincerely asking, no offense meant...)

What about Paul's letter to Galatia? Can one who is "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7), "KNOWN by God" (4:9), can such a one be "never-truly-saved-in-the-first-place"? Then if that one turns back to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again (4:9), ending no longer in the Spirit but in the flesh (3:3), and therefore SEVERED/SEPARATED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE (5:4), is he still saved? How can we make it work?

I think knowing what it means to be a true believer, will somehow address your point there. This is what I take to be a true believer, at least for me.

A true believer/Christian is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know if you have the same view as mine regarding the true believer. If not, I am interested to know yours.

If you will here focus in the part “is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus”, my view would have it, that one who changes his mind about Jesus Christ or in the gospel about Jesus Christ, that was preached by the apostles, which they received and believed, and believe something different, haven’t truly believed after all.

Tong
R4610
 

JohnPaul

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Hi, JohnPaul, welcome.

What do you think "born-again" means? In Rom8:15, "we receive the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!" (Literally, "Daddy!") The word gennao simply means "begotten". John3:7 "you must be born again"; now, 1Jn5:18, born-of-God is begotten-of-God, gennao. Rom9:8, "It is not children of the flesh (Abraham's descendants) who are children of God, but children of the Promise are regarded as descendants."

Salvation is much more than "belief"; James2:19 says that even demons believe. Salvation is a union with the real person of Jesus, He consciously indwells the believer, as does the Spirit. Do you accept Gal2:20?
1Jn5:11-13 states that he who has the Son (echo-possesses), has eternal life; we may know. If you have received the physical persons of Jesus and the Spirit (Rom6:5 "united/joined/grown-together"), if you fellowship with all three (enter behind the veil into the very presence of the Almighty), then you are already born-again, begotten, adopted.

Do you understand?

Some Catholics have errant views; anyone who says "salvation by faith works and the sacraments", does not understand salvation as Scripture (including the Catholic Bible!) teaches it. But many Catholics are saved, Spirit-filled, and will be brothers and sisters with us when Jesus returns.


Some Catholic errors are not condemnable. Scripture does not promote a "Pope" -- Jesus did not say "on Peter I will build My church", the verse actually says, "You are PETER (little stone), and on this PETRA (bedrock! Jesus Himself!) I will build My church." For no other foundation can be laid except Jesus. (citations on request.)

But having a pope, causes no one to perish.

Praying to saints as intercessors does not violate "there is one mediator between God and man, Jesus"; at worst it is simply useless, it causes no one to perish.

If we agree that salvation is a gift of grace received by faith, and that we fellowship with the persons of God, we are truly indwelt and surrendered to God's mastery, then we are brothers -- whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or any other true believer.

Do you understand, brother?

:)
Brother I gave up my denomination a decade ago, I have explained why I did this in other posts, I have no allegiance to any Pope only to God Almighty and his only begotten son, I was baptized shortly after birth as Catholic, which still makes me Christian, so I don't need to be baptized again, I am grateful to the Catholic Church for it taught me about Jesus Christ and the Passion of Christ, I just choose not to adhere to the term Catholic but simply and humbly Christian.

One day I woke after reading the Bible on my own, not the Catholic Bible, but the King James Version, and suddenly I started to see things in the Catholic Church that didn't coincide with the Bible,like the effigies of Saints and putting the effigy of the Blessed Mother above Christ and certain rituals they perform that one day I just couldn't bare to see anymore, as there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ our Savior, and that feeling washed over me like a waterfall and I have never since gone back to a Catholic church, accept for family weddings or baptisms.

I don't like the term Born Again as I've always believed in Christ, so I like to say that I've been woken, as I only pray to God the father and his only begotten son our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, I simply term myself Christian, and belong to no Church or denomination, I pray at home or even at work or wherever I might be where I feel the need to pray.

I surrendered to God the day I was baptized as a baby, and have never stopped believing so, no I don't go by the term Born Again, just simply Christian.

May God Bless you my brother.
 

Taken

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OSAS.... what does this really mean ?
OP ^

Once.....sav-ED.
Is the key. Are you sav-ED?
"IF" ... sav-ED.
"THEN" ... always and forever you "ARE" sav-ED.

What follows, is confusion, is debates, is misidentifying WHO, "you" is, lack of historical Scriptural Knowledge and lack of understanding, according to God...and
A noticeable lack of dependence on Scripture for accurate Verification of Knowledge.

My short answer IS:
Once Any man: becomes "Converted" IN Christ, Forever he IS:
Made "WHOLLY" "WHOLE" according TO: Gods WAY..
(BEFORE manifestation of SEEING)
...**forgiven his sin of having "HAD" disbelief in God, in Christ Jesus.
...soul saved.
...spirit quickened.
...bodily crucified,
temporarily, dead, preserved, set apart, kept """"WITH God""""BY the Power of God, FOR the day of "manifestation", to SEE.

A MAJOR confusion...
...Conversion HAS NOTHING to do with:
Race, Gender, Name tags, (that People associate with...ie Tribe, Jews, Gentiles, Christian, Protestant, Catholic, blah, blah).

A MAJOR confusion...
The WORD... "WITH"....

TEMPORARILY...
* man "WITH" God...
AND
* God "WITH" man.

Study the OT..."TEMPORARILY"...
"WITH and WITHOUT and WITH and WITHOUT".
Man WITH God...when obeying the Law.
God WITH man...when man obeyed.
* Noting...
OBEDIENCE...reveals TRUSTING.
....

Phasing into the NT...a NEW "Better" Testament ...
* Noting...
~ Each "individual", begins ignorant and AGAINST God...can't love or obey or trust what one has never heard of.
~ Each "individual", personally hears, learns, bit by bit.

"THE TEMPORARY"...WITH...WITHOUT...
Continues among men.
ONE DAY...any individual...opens ears, hearing, wondering, NEW knowledge, believing, questioning, excited, trusting, doubting, believing, denying, believing...

THIS IS EXPRESSLY CALLED...TASTING

REALITY...natural life...FOR UMPTEEN "Reasons, Conditions, Circumstances"....PEOPLE..."set aside" ... the OPEN EARS, stop hearing, stop reading, stop listening, stop learning, stop exchanging dialogue....OF:
THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD OF GOD...

REALITY..."GOD is NO LONGER"...WITH that person... BECAUSE "THAT person is NO LONGER" WITH God

** UNDERSTANDING....^^^ THAT hangs on the EFFORT (ie power) of the individual...to KEEP himself, "WITH" God.

** Gods OFFERING, of a NEW "BETTER" TESTAMENT...FOR A NEW "ASSURED" "KEEPING" of an individual, "WITH" the Lord God....and the Lord God "WITH" the individual...."ONCE" and "FOREVER".

Heb 10:
[
10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Rom 10:
[
9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, ( ie IF - THEN ) thou shalt be saved.

THE TEMPORARY....TASTING...."WITH" by the mans EFFORT, to KEEP "WITH GOD"...
COMPLETELY CHANGES
THAT, that man IS KEPT, "WITH" the Lord God, FOREVER: BY:
The man freely, willing, giving, God absolute consent, agreement....FOR GOD, TO KEEP THAT MAN FOREVER, "BY" GODS "POWER"...

And God who IS FAITHFUL and TRUE...
Sends HIS POWER "WITH....IN" that individual....TO EXPRESSLY "KEEP" that individual... WITH the Lord God Almighty.......FOREVER

A TASTER...hears, learns, etc. IS temporarily WITH God. Can KEEP what he learns, or spit it out.
* and DOES receive blessing of the Holy Spirit, while God is WITH him.

AN EATER, A DRINKER....is one who HAS SWALLOWED, what he heard, trusts it, COMMITS to it....and Receives GODS "WITH FOREVER" KEEPING POWER...."IN" the person...CALLED:
Converted "IN" Christ

Heb 6
[
4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Sav-ED....Kept WITH GOD BY Gods Power IN the man, once and forever.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Gadgetere

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Thank you.

<<<What's your verse to support that?>>>

Support what? That a nominal Christian would answer that in the affirmative? I don’t think a verse is necessary to support this to be true. You will understand why after I address your question as to what a nominal Christian is.

<<<Can a "non-Christian", be righteous?>>>

If being righteous, you mean, the doing of works that are held as righteous works, such as helping the needy, and other so called charitable acts, the answer would be yes. But if you mean, being righteous in the sight of God, my answer would be a no.
Scripture asserts some absolutes. Jesus said, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Therefore you will know them by their fruit." (Matt7:16-18)

He also said, "He who is not with Me is against Me; he that does not gather, scatters." (Matt12:30)

So a nominal Christian would be the same as a carnal Christian, they profess to believe but practice sin. Agree?

A nominal Christian is one who is said to be a Christian (Believer in Christ), but only in name. Meaning, he isn’t a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God, which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.
Where do "works" fit into this? We know we are not saved by works (Eph2:8, Rm11:6, Titus3:5, "ergon something-we-do"); but good works inescapably accompany the saved.

Why is that?

It cuts to the essence of Christianity. To be saved, is to begin an indwelt fellowship with the real persons of Jesus, and the Spirit; and we fellowship with the Father. In a real sense Jesus does our good deeds through us --- "For it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure." (Philip2:13) We walk in good works which He prepared beforehand (Eph2:9). We struggle to understand the balance between our being imperfect and occasionally falling back into sin, and the question "can we sin enough to become unsaved?" Salvation would become forfeit if sin becomes repeating; because "Christ-in-you" (indwelling presence!) is not compatible with "walking-in-sin".

Per Scripture, it is not credible to contend that anyone who walks in sin NOW, was never REALLY saved in the FIRST place. In the whole letter of Galatians it describes someone who "was begun in the Spirit, obeying the truth, running well, KNOWN by God" -- that cannot be "unsaved". But such a one turning back to Law, to 'weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again, ending in the FLESH rather than the Spirit", he is plainly said to be "severed from Christ and fallen from grace"! (3:3, 5:7, 4:9, 5:4!) It's impossible to perceive him as "never-was-truly-saved", equally impossible that he "never-actually-fell". The only thing left to try to hang onto OSAS, is to attempt, "It's not real, it's hyperbole, fatherly-advice, it's effective means by which God KEEPS us saved but can't really HAPPEN." And that's not credible either; it's written as real possibility.

It's the same in Hebrews, especially 3:12-14 -- there is no such thing as unsaved brethren, and it's a sincere real warning not to "become deceived by sin to a hard heart that falls away from God". Where is the wiggle-room? Where is it ambiguous?

In a moment I'd like to make a post on 2Cor9...

The word “nominal” is not found in scriptures. But that is not to mean that there are no such nominal Christians, that is, Christians only in name.
So such a person is not saved. No way to tell if he ever was; see 1Jn2:19 "they went out from us because they were not of us" -- but they could have BEEN "of us", even yesterday! There's nothing in the words to disallow that. (And 2Jn1:7-9 warns people to "abide in the teachings so as to not go too far [go out from us!], and cease having God"!)

I think knowing what it means to be a true believer, will somehow address your point there. This is what I take to be a true believer, at least for me.

A true believer/Christian is one who is a believer in the right and true sense of believing, as can be learned in scriptures, that is of a faith that comes from God,
Be careful -- it's very important which direction saving-faith flows. Does God GIVE saving-faith to a few favorites (Reformed Theology), as some misunderstand Rom12:3 to mean? Or does God receive faith FROM men (Heb11:6) and command men to believe (Acts17:26-31) Whose faith is it? (1Pet1:9!)

...which is one that is sincere and of a fully persuaded heart, coming from having been touched and convicted by the Holy Spirit about sin, righteousness, and judgment, and of the truth about God, and is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus.
The most basic question -- when a person receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, who makes the choice?

I don’t know if you have the same view as mine regarding the true believer. If not, I am interested to know yours.
Well, what you and I struggle to expose, is what SCRIPTURE says. Your view, and my view, are irrelevant. We begin recognizing that "all Scripture is inspired by God, and suitable for reproof, correction, equipping us for every righteous deed" (2Tim3:16). Without the bases of "Bible-truth", there is no common ground for discussion. Each of us would "do what is right in our own mind..."

If you will here focus in the part “is that which is trusting, confident, loving, filled with hope in God, and is firm and steadfast in Christ Jesus”, my view would have it, that one who changes his mind about Jesus Christ or in the gospel about Jesus Christ, that was preached by the apostles, which they received and believed, and believe something different, haven’t truly believed after all.
And that's the question -- can one who IS STEADFAST, become unsteadfast? Some Scriptures are translated badly. 2Pet for instance, verse 1:5 "add to your faith" -- as if there's a saved-faith without godly qualities! No, they're not optional! The Greek says "SUPPLY IN your faith!" And verse 10, "make sure ABOUT your calling and election" -- that's not what the Greek says! It blatantly says "make your calling and election steadfast"! He who lacks the non-optional qualities has ...forgotten purification from former sins (he WAS purified/saved, but now is NOT!) -- therefore against that bad-example, be diligent to make your salvation steadfast, (because!) as long as these qualities are yours you will ...not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched, and in THIS way the gates of eternity will be abundantly provided to you (and if you are NOT diligent, they won't be provided at all!)

The argument continues throughout the letter; those who were saved but fall back into defilements are worse than before being saved, chapter 2. And chapter 3 warns us to guard against deceitful men lest we fall from our own steadfastness! Peter is as OSNAS as can get!

I'm sorry I've given you such a barrage of verses, Tong; but what do you think of them? Do you have different understandings?
 

Gadgetere

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Brother I gave up my denomination a decade ago, I have explained why I did this in other posts, I have no allegiance to any Pope only to God Almighty and his only begotten son, I was baptized shortly after birth as Catholic, which still makes me Christian, so I don't need to be baptized again,
I agree.
I am grateful to the Catholic Church for it taught me about Jesus Christ and the Passion of Christ, I just choose not to adhere to the term Catholic but simply and humbly Christian.
And as such, you are an "adopted child of God", co-heir with Jesus. Rm8:17. "Begotten-from-above", you are born again.

;)

One day I woke after reading the Bible on my own, not the Catholic Bible, but the King James Version, and suddenly I started to see things in the Catholic Church that didn't coincide with the Bible, like the effigies of Saints and putting the effigy of the Blessed Mother above Christ and certain rituals they perform that one day I just couldn't bear to see anymore, as there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ our Savior, and that feeling washed over me like a waterfall and I have never since gone back to a Catholic church, except for family weddings or baptisms.

I don't like the term Born Again as I've always believed in Christ,
All it means is "born-from-above". Jesus told Nick, "You must be born again" -- that is, born twice. Nick was confused; Jesus patiently explained about the physical birth, and the spiritual birth. He or she who belongs to Jesus "is a new creation" (2Cor5:17), we are not the same person who committed past sins. God has a flaw -- conscious, intentional deficiency -- when He forgives our sins, He forgets that we ever sinned. "I will remember their sins no more" -- His intentional bad memory is really awesome. (Heb8:12)
so I like to say that I've been woken, as I only pray to God the father and his only begotten son our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, I simply term myself Christian, and belong to no Church or denomination, I pray at home or even at work or wherever I might be where I feel the need to pray.
What you have, my friend, is understanding of why the veil tore. The moment Jesus died, the veil in the temple tore -- and YOU are invited there, into the very presence of Almighty God. Why? Because He enjoys you, delights in your company, cherishes your fellowship!

How many claim the name "Christian", but never enter behind the veil to experience the person of God? He really loves us unconditionally, and enjoys our company.

I surrendered to God the day I was baptized as a baby, and have never stopped believing so, no I don't go by the term Born Again, just simply Christian.
Now you know "born-again" is what Jesus said we must be (Jn3:5-10), and it simply means "adopted/begotten-from-above".

May God Bless you my brother.
And you. Given the way the world is going, Jesus will be back in a very short time, and we will all be celebrating in His presence.

"You can't take it with you"? Oh yes I can! My TREASURE, is each person here! And I fully intend to take every one of you with me.
 

Gadgetere

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OSAS.... what does this really mean ?
OP ^

Once.....sav-ED.
Is the key. Are you sav-ED?
"IF" ... sav-ED.
"THEN" ... always and forever you "ARE" sav-ED.

Taken, I just made a lengthy post to Tong, post 218. You are cordially invited to respond to the verses. Verses which absolutely do not permit us to continue thinking "A truly saved person, cannot become unsaved".

What follows, is confusion, is debates, is misidentifying WHO, "you" is, lack of historical Scriptural Knowledge and lack of understanding, according to God...and
A noticeable lack of dependence on Scripture for accurate Verification of Knowledge.

My short answer IS:
Once Any man: becomes "Converted" IN Christ, Forever he IS:
Made "WHOLLY" "WHOLE" according TO: Gods WAY..
(BEFORE manifestation of SEEING)
...**forgiven his sin of having "HAD" disbelief in God, in Christ Jesus.
...soul saved.
...spirit quickened.
...bodily crucified, temporarily, dead, preserved, set apart, kept """"WITH God""""BY the Power of God, FOR the day of "manifestation", to SEE.
You left out a word -- 1Pet1:5 says "protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH". Whose faith? Verse 9, says "receive as the outcome of YOUR FAITH salvation".

Will you consider Jude20-21? We are to build ourselves in holy faith, and to keep ourselves in the love of God! What does that mean to you?

A MAJOR confusion...
...Conversion HAS NOTHING to do with:
Race, Gender, Name tags, (that People associate with...ie Tribe, Jews, Gentiles, Christian, Protestant, Catholic, blah, blah).

A MAJOR confusion...
The WORD... "WITH"....

TEMPORARILY...
* man "WITH" God...
AND
* God "WITH" man.

Study the OT..."TEMPORARILY"...
"WITH and WITHOUT and WITH and WITHOUT".
Man WITH God...when obeying the Law.
God WITH man...when man obeyed.
* Noting...
OBEDIENCE...reveals TRUSTING.
....

Phasing into the NT...a NEW "Better" Testament ...
* Noting...
~ Each "individual", begins ignorant and AGAINST God...can't love or obey or trust what one has never heard of.
~ Each "individual", personally hears, learns, bit by bit.

"THE TEMPORARY"...WITH...WITHOUT...
Continues among men.
ONE DAY...any individual...opens ears, hearing, wondering, NEW knowledge, believing, questioning, excited, trusting, doubting, believing, denying, believing...
THIS IS EXPRESSLY CALLED...TASTING

REALITY...natural life...FOR UMPTEEN "Reasons, Conditions, Circumstances"....PEOPLE..."set aside" ... the OPEN EARS, stop hearing, stop reading, stop listening, stop learning, stop exchanging dialogue....OF:
THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD OF GOD...

REALITY..."GOD is NO LONGER"...WITH that person... BECAUSE "THAT person is NO LONGER" WITH God

** UNDERSTANDING....^^^ THAT hangs on the EFFORT (ie power) of the individual...to KEEP himself, "WITH" God.

** Gods OFFERING, of a NEW "BETTER" TESTAMENT...FOR A NEW "ASSURED" "KEEPING" of an individual, "WITH" the Lord God....and the Lord God "WITH" the individual...."ONCE" and "FOREVER".

Heb 10:
[
10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And you missed verses 26-29, a man who WAS SANCTIFIED (and through Jesus' blood, no way he was NOT ever saved!), can turn back to sin and "scorn the very blood that once sanctified him, trample Jesus and insult the Spirit!" Is he STILL SAVED? No way. And in context, that man is US if we do not heed the warning!

I look forward to your thoughts on Heb3:12-14...
Rom 10:
[
9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, ( ie IF - THEN ) thou shalt be saved.

THE TEMPORARY....TASTING...."WITH" by the mans EFFORT, to KEEP "WITH GOD"...
COMPLETELY CHANGES
THAT, that man IS KEPT, "WITH" the Lord God, FOREVER: BY:
The man freely, willing, giving, God absolute consent, agreement....FOR GOD, TO KEEP THAT MAN FOREVER, "BY" GODS "POWER"...
No, not "by God's power" -- it is by God's power, through our faith. Do you know Rom1:17? Greek expert Robertson explains, "God's righteousness is revealed from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal -- from our beginning faith to our ending faith; we are to live BY faith.

And God who IS FAITHFUL and TRUE...
Sends HIS POWER "WITH....IN" that individual....TO EXPRESSLY "KEEP" that individual... WITH the Lord God Almighty.......FOREVER

A TASTER...hears, learns, etc. IS temporarily WITH God. Can KEEP what he learns, or spit it out.
* and DOES receive blessing of the Holy Spirit, while God is WITH him.

AN EATER, A DRINKER....is one who HAS SWALLOWED, what he heard, trusts it, COMMITS to it....and Receives GODS "WITH FOREVER" KEEPING POWER...."IN" the person...CALLED:
Converted "IN" Christ

Heb 6
[
4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
"Temporary tasting. Problems:

1. "Taste" (geuomai), is the SAME word as in Heb2:9, and Jesus fully participated in death! There's no way to recognize Jesus DIED, but then contend those in 6:4 did not actually participate.

2. "Partakers of the Holy Spirit", uses metochos-partners! It is SAVED in 3:1 (partners in a heavenly calling), it is SAVED in 3:14 (partners in Christ IF we hold fast ...firm until the end), and it is SAVED in 12:8 (partners in His discipline). We cannot read "partners in the Holy Spirit" in 6:4 and pretend they were not really saved.

3. The argument is summarized in verses 11-12: "And we desire that each one of you demonstrate the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and endurance inherit the promises. Diligence to remain IN SALVATION? Is there any way to make it mean something ELSE?

Sav-ED....Kept WITH GOD BY Gods Power IN the man, once and forever.

Glory to God,
Taken
You have at least three choices. You can ignore this post and/or the verses (perhaps like someone else did even exclaiming about "Gadget's immature/unlearned misunderstanding" without actually showing it in Scripture), you can respond and try to explain why the verses do not say what they say, or you can accept that Scripture plainly warns us not to fall from salvation.

Warns us over, and over, and over, many times.

Which choice do you think will please God?