Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

Aunty Jane · Oct 10, 2021

Curtis said:
Your exegesis of scripture leaves much to be desired.

That is your opinion and you are free to believe whatever you wish.....but how do you know that your own beliefs are true?
I ask again...are there others who believe what you believe, or is this just your own take on the scriptures?

If you have no brotherhood then you cannot be a Christian in isolation from others. (1 Corinthians 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25) The one who teaches himself has a fool for an instructor.

The above is not talk8ng about believers rejecting the truth, but unbelievers rejecting the truth.

The unbelievers in this passage (Matthew 7:21-23) are those who think that they are Christians in good standing....Jesus tells them otherwise, since they are apparently NOT doing the will of his Father....they are trying to give him excuses but he will not buy any of them.....his rejection is absolute....he has NEVER known those people.

Jesus will soon let us all know whether we are teaching his truth.....or the devil’s lies.
Anything that is not the truth about God and his Christ, and doctrines that have no basis in scripture, will be rejected along with all those who hold onto them. (Revelation 18:4-5)

The judgment is not far off I believe.....

Aunty Jane · Oct 10, 2021

Backlit said:
Here is what I see.
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels.

Can we have some scripture to examine on these points? This is all new to me. Who said that the earth is going to be utterly desolate without human inhabitants but occupied by satan and his demons?....and for what reason? Earth is not the abyss where satan and his demons are confined. The incorrigibly wicked (like the Pharisees) are not judged after death, but consigned immediately to Gehenna. They have already been judged. They will never live again. No one who has blasphemed the holy spirit will ever see daylight in the future. They witnessed Jesus' miracles and attributed the working of the holy spirit to Beelzebub.

Backlit said:
At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.

Again, some scripture to indicate that any of this is true....?
I have a completely different view of these things.

Backlit said:
The New Earth
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen.

The "new heavens" is the new ruling authority of God's Kingdom, and the "new earth" will be the Kingdom's domain, eventually filled with righteous humans, as God first intended it to be....and then the Creator can get on with his plans he has for the rest of the Universe....whatever they happen to be. I am sure all that vastness was not created for nothing.

Backlit said:
God is not confined, but He chooses the earth made new as His universal capital. No-one is claiming He is confined anywhere.

God's Universal Capital? He mentions Mt Zion but it is the heavenly one not the earthly one. God will no longer have any specific geographical location for his King to rule mankind.

Backlit said:
Through His Son, Christ. It was the spirit of Christ who spoke and preached through Noah. 1 Peter 3:18-20.
It was Christ who led Israel from Egypt. 1 Cor. 10:4
It was Christ in the form of man who spoke to Abraham and wrestled with Jacob, it was Christ who appeared to Manoah. Who through His Spirit inspired the prophets, and in the incarnation became a man. And in the resurrection continued in His humanity and now reigns from the sanctuary in heaven to bring about all the purposes of His Father.

As I said...The Word (who became flesh) has always been God's spokesman. (ho Logos) He had a large role to play in Israel's history before his earthly sojourn.

n2thelight · Oct 10, 2021

liafailrock said:
This begs a few questions about this doctrine:

1) Where did OT people of God go when they died?
2) We also have to ask, if one exists as a conscious disembodied spirit, then what's the point of a resurrection for both the just and unjust?
3) What is the time frame for being present with the Lord? For example, it has to be considered that if there's "soul sleep", time to the person means nothing, so the next conscious moment will be the resurrection, so one is with the Lord. Think of a time machine into the future c.f. Matthew 17:1-8

The flesh will not be again ,we just hanging out in it right now as the OP stated, as for the OT peeps ,scripture tells us .

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

The purpose for Jesus Christ's coming to earth and living in the flesh, was so that He would die on the cross for your sins. Jesus was just [righteous] in all manner of His flesh life, and in His death "the Just" suffered for the sins of the unjust. Jesus Christ came to earth to die so that you do not need to go to hell, but by your faith in Him and belief in what Jesus has done on the cross, through your repentance to the Father in Jesus name you can be saved. It is your soul that receives eternal life, and when this flesh body dies and is laid in the ground, it is your spirit and soul that is quickened, or goes on living eternally. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, giving you new changed life, where there was only a dead soul before. Jesus died to bring all souls to the Father.

If you ever had any question as to what part of Jesus died on the cross, you have it right here. Jesus Christ's flesh body was died, whereas His spiritual body was quickened or made alive by His Spirit. Jesus was spiritually alive when He descended into the prison to preach to those lost souls.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Not the word "sometime", they were not disobedient all the time like the fallen angels, but were disobedient while living in the flesh body. Do you think that it was the whether that saved those adamic souls? They were saved from the water, and the reason that God saved them is given in Genesis 6:9; "THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

The key to understanding this verse is in the word "perfect", for in the Hebrew text, it is the word "tamin", which means "without blemish as to breed or pedigree." In Genesis 6:1-7, when men started to multiply on the face of the earth, daughters were born to them. When the sons of God beheld the daughters of men, they desired them. Many "sons of God" or fallen angels left their place of habitation in the heavens and came to earth and multiplied with those daughters of flesh man, and from them came the Nethinim. This is what the book of Jude is all about.

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

These were the giants of old, and through the years to the time of Noah, all souls on earth were contaminated by cross marriage, to where there was only Noah, His wife, and their family that were pure in pedigree, or their lineage blood line. It was the half breed creatures of giants, that came from the union of the daughters of men, and the fallen angels that left their first estate, that were the ones that the flood of Noah's day was to eliminate. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:37-39 that in the time just before His coming it will be just as it was in Noah's day.

Brakelite · Oct 10, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Can we have some scripture to examine on these points? This is all new to me. Who said that the earth is going to be utterly desolate without human inhabitants but occupied by satan and his demons?....and for what reason? Earth is not the abyss where satan and his demons are confined. The incorrigibly wicked (like the Pharisees) are not judged after death, but consigned immediately to Gehenna. They have already been judged. They will never live again. No one who has blasphemed the holy spirit will ever see daylight in the future. The witnessed Jesus' miracles and attributed the working of the holy spirit to Beelzebub.

Again, some scripture to indicate that any of this is true....?
I have a completely different view of these things.

The "new heavens" is the new ruling authority of God's Kingdom, and the "new earth" will be the Kingdom's domain, eventually filled with righteous humans, as God first intended it to be....and then the Creator can get on with his plans he has for the rest of the Universe....whatever they happen to be. I am sure all that vastness was not created for nothing.

God's Universal Capital? He mentions Mt Zion but it is the heavenly one not the earthly one. God will no longer have any specific geographical location for his King to rule mankind.

As I said...The Word (who became flesh) has always been God's spokesman. (ho Logos) He had a large role to play in Israel's history before his earthly sojourn.

All the scriptures are noted in my post.

Aunty Jane · Oct 10, 2021

Backlit said:
All the scriptures are noted in my post.

I was rather hoping for more than just citations....but perhaps we can examine the scriptures you cited and ask some pertinent questions about them....?

Jeremiah 4:23-26...who is this directed to? And under what circumstances does he bring these messages of denunciation upon Israel....or more specifically, Judah?
This was a prelude to the unfaithful and irreformable Israelites being kicked out of their homeland by the Babylonians and taken into a 70 year exile.....Jerusalem and its Temple we’re destroyed.....this is not a prophesy about our time. But it is pictorial of what God will do, (especially to to his own worshippers) if they are disobedient and act in ways that offend him, like Israel did.

In exile, Daniel would be used to write about the future, and he was told to “seal up the book” because no one would understand his prophesies until “the time of the end”. (Daniel 12:9-10)

Ezekiel 28:18-19....Ezekiel was a contemporary of Jeremiah and prophesied concerning Israel along with Jeremiah. In Ezekiel 26:2, with Jerusalem destroyed, Jeremiah was told....”Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! The gateway of the peoples has been broken! Everything will come my way, and I will become rich now that she is devastated’” But Babylon was to lay siege to the city for 13 years, as Jehovah had warned through his prophet.

What is 1 Cor 6:2-3 telling us? Paul was actually rebuking the brothers for going to worldly counts to settle disputes among themselves when all they had to do was bring their concerns to the elders and allow them to judge matters in a Christian way. His remarks about ‘judging angels’ is indicative of the role of the elect in the heavenly kingdom. These, along with their King and High Priest, Jesus Christ, will apparently play a major role in the governance of both heaven and earth. But not all Christians are of the elect (chosen ones).

Revelation ch 20 is one of my favourite chapters.....there is so much in this chapter that reveals things that I believe will take place in the (near) future.

At present, satan and his demons are confined to the vicinity of the earth and are doing their level best to destroy people’s faith, and also to distort the faith of many so that their worship is unacceptable to God. (Revelation 12:7-12) These are all things he has demonstrated in the past. He has no new tricks. (2 Corinthians 2:11)

The opening verses of Revelation 20 tell of the binding and abyssing of satan who, along with his minions, will be placed in a condition of confinement in a prison-like state where they will not be permitted to interfere with what is happening on earth during the 1,000 years when they are out of action. This is the time when the “new earth” under the rulership of the “new heavens” (God’s Kingdom) will bring all humankind back into reconciliation with God. This is what the Kingdom is for....it is the means for giving us back all that we lost when our first parents followed satan into rebellion. Our hopes to live in paradise were dashed but God promised to restore it. It was his first purpose and it has never changed. What Jehovah starts, he finishes. (Isaiah 55:11) But first rebellion had to be dealt with so that free will could never be abused again.

Only at the end of the 1,000 years will satan and his hordes be released to test mankind one final time. Those who survived the end times in our day will have already proven their faith, but during the 1,000 years, the general resurrection and education of the dead will take place. Some will respond positively and some will not, but death in the new world to come, will only be by God who will tolerate no rebellion then...he doesn’t have to. All precedents are now set for eternity and God ‘s absolute Sovereignty is set in stone. It can never be challenged again.
This is when Revelation 21:2-4 will have its beautiful fulfilment.

So after that one final test, the only ones left on earth will be those who have proven their love and loyalty to Jehovah. Satan and all who have allowed him to lead them will be dispatched forever in the “lake of fire”....never to be seen again. Then, all things will return to how they were meant to be in the beginning. No heaven or hell...just everlasting life or everlasting death.

This is what the scriptures logically tell me in the order that they occur.

Brakelite · Oct 11, 2021

@Aunty Jane
Jer. 4:23-26;
This is a depiction of the earth, the entire planet after the plagues, after Christ takes His bride home, after all the wicked are killed by the brightness of Christ's coming. Other confirming texts which also speak to complete destruction of the earth are Jeremiah 25:15-38. That chapter begins with his judgements against Israel, but the prophet escalates the vision to encompass all nations. Also....
KJV Isaiah 24:16-20
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

Ezek. 28:18, 19; speaks of the final destruction of Satan.

Mal. 4:1... Of the wicked...

1 Cor. 6:2, 3; streaks of the 1000 year periods during which the righteous rule with Christ in heaven and they take part, as witnesses in a court case, in the judgement against the fallen angels and against fallen and sinful humanity. All shall be discussed and disclosed until the remains no doubts or questions as to how God handled the great controversy of the rebellion against His government.

Rev. 20; 21:1-5.

Michiah-Imla · Oct 11, 2021

Backlit said:
Anyone who believes the God of the Bible is such that He willingly and purposefully keeps billions and billions of people alive in the midst of fire in order that they suffer interminably forever without end and without rest, does not know God as well as they should.

And I submit to you that people such as yourself either don’t know the Bible well or have accepted some perverted interpretation of it.

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Brakelite · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
And I submit to you that people such as yourself either don’t know the Bible well or have accepted some perverted interpretation of it.

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Mmm. So tell me. Is the beast an individual person, and what beast is being referred to here? And is the false prophet an individual person, and who is that? And the devil? Well sure, he gets burnt alright. And it destroys him. So he's not lasting forever and ever and ever is he?
KJV Ezekiel 28:14-19
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So if even Satan is destroyed in the fire, what hope have mortal sinners? Sounds like that day and night for ever and ever doesn't mean what you want it to mean. But I do wonder and it raises a question. Why do you want it to mean eternity?

Michiah-Imla · Oct 11, 2021

@Backlit

It is YOU who wants the scriptures to mean something different than what it plainly says.

Stop questioning scriptures with your limited carnal mind and start submitting to them.

Brakelite · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
@Backlit

It is YOU who wants the scriptures to mean something different than what it plainly says.

Stop questioning scriptures with your limited carnal mind and start submitting to them.

I have absolutely no hesitancy in wanting to promote God as He is. Consistent. Merciful. And not just loving, but love itself. Everything He does is motivated by love. Tell me. How does eternal torment reflect love?
Like this one....?
KJV Malachi 4:1
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Michiah-Imla · Oct 11, 2021

Backlit said:
And not just loving, but love itself. Everything He does is motivated by love. Tell me. How does eternal torment reflect love?

By ridding the wicked from among the righteous.

If someone tries to kill another’s loved one, and the loved one’s companion kills the murder… this happens out of love for the loved one.

The murder brought his/her own fate upon themselves.

If the Bible threatens you with eternal punishment, you better take heed!

God means what he says!

Word games will not help anyone on that day.

BarneyFife · Oct 11, 2021

farouk said:
...but this isn't the full meaning....

The rich man in Luke 16 is in hell, in torment and conscious.

If my car tire is in a bad way, it's perished, but it hasn't ceased to exist...

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

Brakelite · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
By ridding the wicked from among the righteous.

If someone tries to kill another’s loved one, and the loved one’s companion kills the murder… this happens out of love for the loved one.

The murder brought his/her own fate upon themselves.

If the Bible threatens you with eternal punishment, you better take heed!

God means what he says!

Word games will not help anyone on that day.

Word games? Is that what we are doing here?
Okay. Let's get serious. You say sinners will live forever. . Show me from scripture where God gives eternal life to sinners.

Brakelite · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
@Backlit

It is YOU who wants the scriptures to mean something different than what it plainly says.

Stop questioning scriptures with your limited carnal mind and start submitting to them.

And not once did actually address my post... Just a declaration of your own intelligibility and an insult. See ya.

BarneyFife · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
God means what he says!

Exactly

Romans 6:23 Parallel: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Revelation 21:8 Parallel: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Parallel: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Luke 13:3 Parallel: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2 Peter 2:12 Parallel: But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Psalm 37:20 Parallel: But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Proverbs 10:25 Parallel: As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.

Malachi 4:1 Parallel: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Psalm 37:10 Parallel: For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Revelation 20:9 Parallel: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Wrangler · Oct 11, 2021

Curtis said:
The Bible makes it clear in 2 Corinthians ch. 5, that our body is only a home, that WE leave at death.

Yet, none of your references refute soul sleep. "We" are our body's and Spirit. Jesus made it clear that he was not a ghost. Thomas touched his wounds, which means a bodily resurrection.

I noticed you did not address the far more over-whelming evidence FOR Soul Sleep than the circumspect verses you cite. For instance, Jesus repeatedly equated people who were dead with sleeping. How do you explain that?

The more significant scenario is to undermine the significance of a future Judgment Day if all who are dead are already aware of where they are headed.

Michiah-Imla · Oct 11, 2021

Backlit said:
Show me from scripture where God gives eternal life to sinners.

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)

Their “life” will be in everlasting in punishment.

Simple.

How did you miss this scripture?

Did some false teaching or fleshly wisdom blind you to it?

Michiah-Imla · Oct 11, 2021

@BarnyFife

You are convinced contrary to basic biblical teaching.

That’s my opinion.

You can quote all the scriptures that seem to support your stance but scripture taken as a WHOLE don’t support your belief.

Kind regards friend.

Wrangler · Oct 11, 2021

Michiah-Imla said:
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46)

Their “life” will be in everlasting in punishment.

Simple.

How did you miss this scripture?

Did some false teaching or fleshly wisdom blind you to it?

Nah. Just not taking the bait of a bad translation. Saw an outstanding video explaining Judgment Day that carries eternal consequences. In other words, the righteous are not Judged every day everlasting as being righteous. And their are the damned. It's just that on that day there are eternal consequences for both.

Just like on Earth. If you are cut out from your father's inheritance, the day the will is read is the day you find out. But that judgement is final. Eternal, if you will. But you are not cut out every day forever and ever.

I guess it is just easier and simpler for people to accept the 'burn in hell' indoctrination than think through Scripture.

Then Jesus said, “Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 (CEV)

Curtis · Oct 11, 2021

Wrangler said:
I noticed you did not address the far more over-whelming evidence FOR Soul Sleep than the circumspect verses you cite. For instance, Jesus repeatedly equated people who were dead with sleeping. How do you explain that?

The body sleeps. That’s how you explain that.

The evidence I gave is overwhelming to anyone with ears to hear.

Try actually reading it.

I know you didn’t.

Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

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