No Hell, No Devil = Christian Socialism

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veteran

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Just a note...

Truth said:
"And I have endured many accusations (fiery darts) and provided studies in the Holy Scriptures, comparing scripture with scripture, and not once have I introduced fairy tales of Hollywood monsters and Gnostic fantasies."

Truth is trying to use the comparison of those who believe God's Word about the existence of a literal place called hell, with Hollywood and Gnosticism.

Gnosticism was of the 2nd century Neoplatonists that tried to join Christian Doctrine with Greek philosophy. It later became allied with the occult, and is now aligned with the New Age movement today, and those DO NOT BELIEVE SATAN OR HELL IS REAL.

Also, Hollywood does not believe Satan, hell, nor The Bible is real, but just a fairy tale.

Truth has used a couple of comparisons he/she should not have, because they both point to his/her own denial of Satan as a real entity, and hell as a real place in the heavenly.

 

Alethos

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Just a note...



Truth is trying to use the comparison of those who believe God's Word about the existence of a literal place called hell, with Hollywood and Gnosticism.

Gnosticism was of the 2nd century Neoplatonists that tried to join Christian Doctrine with Greek philosophy. It later became allied with the occult, and is now aligned with the New Age movement today, and those DO NOT BELIEVE SATAN OR HELL IS REAL.

Also, Hollywood does not believe Satan, hell, nor The Bible is real, but just a fairy tale.

Truth has used a couple of comparisons he/she should not have, because they both point to his/her own denial of Satan as a real entity, and hell as a real place in the heavenly.


In the spirit of 1 Cor 14:40 I will send you a PM.

Alethos
 

TheWarIs1

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"Thou givest to Thy Son jurisdiction of all flesh, that everything which Thou hast given to him, he might give to them aionian life. And this is the life of the Aion (he aionios zoe) that they should understand Thee (ginoskosi se) the only true God, and Jesus Anointed whom Thou sendest" (John 17:2,3).

From this we learn:

1. That the life of Christs Aion is not given to all mankind!

2. That the life is for those hid in the Son; and

3. That this life is specially given to those who understand "the only true God," and His annointed Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only a few chapters of the Old Testament were written in Aramaic with the majority of the Torah written in Hebrew.

However, based on your list provided Aramaic would be the answer.

Alethos





You're correct I meant Hebrew/Aramaic.
Some people here seem to think that King James wrote the bible and they defend every last word written by the Kings men.

Shlama
 

veteran

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You're correct I meant Hebrew/Aramaic.
Some people here seem to think that King James wrote the bible and they defend every last word written by the Kings men.

Shlama


.And some people here espousing ideas of Judaism think God's Word belongs ONLY to them, and that no Gentile is able to understand it.
 

Alethos

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.And some people here espousing ideas of Judaism think God's Word belongs ONLY to them, and that no Gentile is able to understand it.

Veteran, this comment is dissapointing.

TheWaris1 has been trying to enlighten you to the meaning and context of Hebrew / Greek words.

If you are going to marginalise someone, at least do it with right motives and not in support of your false teaching of hell.

I must say given their understanding on the death state they have greater clarity of truth than yourself...you could learn a lot from TheWaris1.

The Jews have long worshipped the One True God and is clearly not the Christian God who is worshipped today. The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, is the same God of Jesus Christ. Sadly the Jews dont acknoweldge the Messiah, but they will and God has great plans for His people.

In the Masters Service

Alethos
 

veteran

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Veteran, this comment is dissapointing.

TheWaris1 has been trying to enlighten you to the meaning and context of Hebrew / Greek words.

If you are going to marginalise someone, at least do it with right motives and not in support of your false teaching of hell.

I must say given their understanding on the death state they have greater clarity of truth than yourself...you could learn a lot from TheWaris1.

The Jews have long worshipped the One True God and is clearly not the Christian God who is worshipped today. The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, is the same God of Jesus Christ. Sadly the Jews dont acknoweldge the Messiah, but they will and God has great plans for His people.

In the Masters Service

Alethos


The word Christian was first used at Antioch (Acts 11:26). It represented the disciples who believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ, The Messiah. The Christian God is The Father of The Old Testament and New Testament, and His Son Jesus Christ Whom He sent. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are One, which is also testified in the Book of Hebrews. So I don't know what other Christian God you speak of.

2 Cor 3:12-16
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(KJV)


Per Apostle Paul, there is a "vail" over their minds UNTIL that vail is done away in Christ. Orthodox Judaism does not recognize Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ because Judaism is not all about the same ideas of the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets. Judaism is about the religion of the Jews, the system traditions of the Jews which Apostle Paul left. Paul did not leave belief in the Old Testament writings, he left the traditions of the Jews which are outside God's Word. It is a religion of the Pharisees and sage philosophy traditions that came out of Judah's Babylon captivity, writings of the Babylonian Talmud.

The way those false traditions got started was because of foreigners not of Israel have crept in among Judah per OT history. Specificially, the scribes were Kenites from Canaan that later dwelt at the city of Jabez (1 Chron.2:55). The Jew's religion hides the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophets about Messiah from their own people, because lot of the ones doing that are not even of Israelite birth. God foretold about this starting in Judges 2 & 3, and said He would use those left of the Canaanites to test Israel with. In the last verse of Zechariah 14, God says in that future time after Christ's return, there will be no more the Canaanite in the house of God.

So until that future day after Christ's return, much of what Judaism believes should be held suspect, that is, unless a Christian also wants to go into the vail of blindness the Jew's religion produces.



 

Alethos

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<The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are One, which is also testified in the Book of Hebrews

Hi Veteran,

Rather than launching into a study of the Godhead...would you mind defining your above statement from the Scripture's. We may be speaking to the same understanding, but coming at it from different perspectives.

Alethos
 

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Just a note...Hollywood does not believe Satan, hell, nor The Bible is real, but just a fairy tale.

Hollywood believes only in their own ability to create whatever fantasy will generate revenue.

Morality and principles do not apply there except with regard to the copyright property.
 

veteran

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<The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are One, which is also testified in the Book of Hebrews

Hi Veteran,

Rather than launching into a study of the Godhead...would you mind defining your above statement from the Scripture's. We may be speaking to the same understanding, but coming at it from different perspectives.

Alethos



Heb 1:1-8
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?
6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He saith, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(KJV)


Heb 10:12-17
12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
(KJV)


In both examples, those Scripture give proof that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost (Spirit) are The Godhead. And I didn't even use the word Trinity did I?






 

veteran

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....
The Jews have long worshipped the One True God and is clearly not the Christian God who is worshipped today. The God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, is the same God of Jesus Christ.

In the Masters Service

Alethos

(My emphasis added in the above quote by Truth)


I don't think I'm the one who has some explaining to do.

By your own statement, you admit that The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is The same God OF Jesus Christ, and not AS Jesus Christ.

Maybe others missed that, but I did not.

That is a declaration that you do not believe Jesus Christ is God. It points to denial of the meaning of Christ's Name Immanuel in Isaiah, which means "with us is God".



Nor do you try to hide your denial of "the Christian God who is worshipped today", Which That Christian God just so happens to be The Father per the Isaiah Scripture also...


Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
(KJV)


Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(KJV)




 

Alethos

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Heb 1:1-8
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?
6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He saith, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(KJV)


Heb 10:12-17
12 But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.
14 For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that He had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
(KJV)


In both examples, those Scripture give proof that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost (Spirit) are The Godhead. And I didn't even use the word Trinity did I?


Would you like an interpration of Heb 1 & 10? Contrary to your understanding? If not, just say so!

Alethos
 

Alethos

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Basically, I don't see much to gain by listening to anything you have to say. You're too irrational for me.

Veteran,

You quoted two sections of Scripture without an understanding? Are you quoting them to prove something, if so, what? You are following in the footsteps of Ducky by throwing up random verses without any explanation?

I offer you an interpratation and you dont want to hear? Sounds like John 8:43.

I am waiting for you to expound Heb 1:1-8 & Heb 10:12-17?

What are you proving from these passages?

Alethos
 

veteran

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Did you all know why Socialists target today's Christian Churches in an attempt to turn the true Doctrines of Christianity upside down?

Like I've declared before from ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist, it's one of the Communist-Socialists strategies to get pastors to teach "Social religion" in the Churches instead of "Revealed religion" from The Bible. (Probably can find a copy of that book on Amazon.com.).

Did you all know that 'some' pastors now believe the mythological Babylonian Tablet account of the creation instead of God's Holy Writ in Genesis, just because the Babylonian Tablets are more ancient writ? In John 10 our Lord Jesus warned us about the "hireling" over God's people who will run when the wolves go after the sheep. Do you think those type of pastors that accept the Babylonian Tablet creation account are hirelings? just playing at Church maybe? Or maybe they're part of the plan to subvert revealed religion directly from God's Holy Writ and preach "Social religion" instead?

What about the pastors who marry gays, an act which is clearly against God's Holy Word? Does that sound more like "Social religion" from the Communist-Socialists, or Revealed religion from God's Word? Is that really too difficult for many believers to figure out?

The next time some pastor gets up at the pulpit and preaches Socialist ideas you know has nothing to do with God's Word, will you still give your money to that "hireling"?

I recall a pastor who had a PhD. from Vanderbilt Seminary. He took a weak speculated idea some have that Apostle Paul adopted Timothy, and turned that into a full one hour sermon of how Americans need to be adopting the poor children from OTHER countries! The reason that struck me is because a friend of mine and his wife had tried for years to adopt American children, and they gave up because of all the red tape the U.S. government had created. It was by far easier to go overseas and adopt children from the Ukraine, which is what they did.

How is it, that it was EASIER, and took less red tape, to adopt children from a FOREIGN country? Maybe that pastor with a PhD. knew something he didn't bother to share with the rest of us, for that is pointing to a political agenda if he already knew about that. That's how Socialism in the Churches works. A little idea is dreamed up and claimed to be within God's Word, when it's really a sign of the crept in unawares working Socialist doctrines within the Church. And man, was that new Church building big, lot of money people tied up in it.

Our government won't stop illegals crossing our borders; even have lawsuits against the state of Arizona because of their trying to stop it in their own state; they make it easy to adopt children from foreign countries while more difficult to adopt American children; anyone see a pattern with that?

Is it no wonder then, that denial that Satan exists, and that there is no place like hell, also fits the Socialist agendas? Communism is anti-religion, regardless of the brand. This world, the flesh, is their only religion. They no more believe in a place like Heaven any more than they do hell, or the devil. Opiate of the masses the Marxist would say.

In Malachi Martin's book about the Jesuits, he quoted one of the popes on a visit to Central America years ago and Jesuits there. The pope said, "So you're not all Marxists?" So apparently, this creeping in of Communist-Socialism into the Christian Church has been going on for quite some time now. Beware.

 

Wakka

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No doubt some on this Forum don't like me exposing the Socialist doctrines now trying to creep into Christian Churches, especially those in the West. Too bad.

We in the Christian West are fast approaching the time when God foretold in His Word of a world beast kingdom that would be setup over all nations and peoples, with another beast to approach in its heels to create a joining of all the world's faiths into one pot. That is the subject of our Lord's Revelation in the 13th chapter of Revelation that will lead to the mark of the beast.

Part of that Socialist movement in the Churches is the attempt to remove the Biblical concept of hell and Satan as a real entity. The false ideas that hell is not a real place, and that there really is no such thing as the Devil as an entity, (but only as a force of nature), is a pagan belief (recall Daniel 11 that a false one would come some day proclaiming a god of forces).

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom is about a false attempt by Satan's host to setup a copy of God's true Kingdom, here on earth today, without Christ Jesus. That is what the Socialism movement within today's Churches is about, and is why it includes doctrine that seeks to cast off any Biblical idea that conflicts with the creation of their fake copy of God's Kingdom on earth today. They want the world to believe that God's Kingdom has come already here on earth in final. Their aim to present us with a version of it we would be inclined to wrongly accept.

So when you hear some preacher get up to a pulpit and preach the lie that hell is not a real place, and/or that Satan is not a real entity, or that Christ has returned, then you'll know exactly where such false doctrines are coming from, i.e., the synagogue of Satan.


Hey Veteran. I'm a believer in Christ and a Socialist. What are you going to do about it?
 

WhiteKnuckle

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ummm.....

The early church was communist.......

Communalist, not Communist.

Sharing everything as a community for the good of the community isn't communist. Each had the choice to share or not share. It was a way of survival and of building a community where they were most likely rejected in society.

It wasn't until several years after the start of Christianity that followers of Jesus were accepted. At that time they were able to open shops and get jobs and the like. I believe that as Christian communities grew they be able to create commerce.

The Idea wasn't much different than early Jewish communities.

Communism is more like a collective, work for the state, for the good of the state. Communism doesn't give room for personal thought, emotion, well being or spirituality. The benefits of communism actuall lead to a more prison type style of living. You're taken care of but you must do this or that. You're only taken care of so you can help the state.

On paper Communism is a good idea. I tend to lean towards a more socialistic point of view myself. However, after examining the real differences, I actually have a more Communalist view.
 

veteran

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There actually exists a documented event of early Socialism practiced by the early settlers in America at Jamestown. It reveals the error of Socialist thought. The first year they all agreed to hold everything in common. Everything was to be equally distributed. Many starved that first year.

The next year, the policy changed. They used the Biblical principle that if you don't work, you don't eat...


II Th 3:10-12
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
(KJV)


The next year at Jamestown, no one starved, and there was abundance. Whatever extra was produced, the worker got to keep or use in trade. What was the reason behind this?


A fact of life is that some people are inherently lazy, and won't work a lick if they can get by with it. Without shame, they will take advantage, some even thinking they're smart in getting if they get by with it.

Going hungry is a pretty good incentive to get to work and be productive. If you know the results of your hard work is going to be taken away, and given to someone who won't work, that also takes away your incentive to be more productive. If you get to keep the fruits of your labor, and use what you don't need to barter or sell, that produces incentive to work harder. In turn, more is produced and it creates a situation of abundance.

Abundance is important, because if that doesn't exist, then there's not even enough to SHARE with others that might be in need!

Under Communism in Stalinist Russia, the farms people owned were taken from them and turned into collective farms controlled and operated by the government. Other people were placed on those farms against their will, while owners of the land were forced to move to the city to find work. When a tractor tire had to be changed, there might be five workers standing around watching while only one bothered to change the tire. The government overrode individual incentive, which is against the basic laws of human nature because it produces lack of will. When the collective farming system began to fail, the Communists had to resort to physical force and punishment. Previous farm owners who were literally starving in the city went back to their farms in search for food and were shot just for taking one single produce from the field to eat. That's the situation of 'lack of abundance'. It's a desperate situation. Socialist thinking was the cause.

But today in Russia, things have changed. The people are allowed more freedom and ownership that results in more incentive to produce. Their leaders have eventually realized that the Biblical principles are correct, even if they won't admit it.