Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

BarneyFife · Oct 13, 2021

Curtis said:
The body sleeps in death and every scripture reference is always about the body sleeping, and does not negate Paul’s clear and unambiguous statement that at death of the body, we become present with the Lord,and that or body is our earthly home that we leave.

Then you're not reading mine and others' posts, which is fine (I know they're long), but it makes your pontificating seem really weak. Simply quote the verses you believe are conclusive, and one of us will be happy to show you where they've already been refuted, or how they can be. But only if you feel like it. Take your time.

Curtis · Oct 13, 2021

BarnyFife said:
Then you're not reading mine and others' posts, which is fine (I know they're long), but it makes your pontificating seem really weak. Simply quote the verses you believe are conclusive, and one of us will be happy to show you where they've already been refuted, or how they can be. But only if you feel like it. Take your time.

Backlit said:
I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it. Anyone who believes the God of the Bible is such that He willingly and purposefully keeps billions and billions of people alive in the midst of fire in order that they suffer interminably forever without end and without rest, does not know God as well as they should.
And they go to the Bible to prove an already existing assumption taught outside of scripture.
One can look at phrases such as everlasting punishment and automatically think, there see, everlasting torment in hell. But that isn't what it says, and you know it. You also read 'for ever and ever' but you've been told time and time again that the original language doesn't mean what the English infers, but you don't want to understand that because you're stubborn. You read the story of Luke 16 and believe that confirms everything and twist and squirm and rearrange other texts to explain it according to your pre-existing assumptions, yet it still doesn't make sense but you cleave to it anyway.
You read where Jesus was dead and buried in one place and read in another where Noah taught the people of his day through the spirit of Christ repentance and righteousness and join them together to justify the story sending Jesus to 'hell' where He is tormented forever... Oh wait... No He wasn't. He died right? So He didn't take all our punishment for sin. Wait, yes He did, but, oh, ... How confused do people make the gospel through their traditions.
And all the above nonsense you cleave resolutely to why? Not because the Bible exclusively teaches it no, because there are dozens of texts which clearly and succinctly teach annihilation.
You cleave to it because that's the kind of God you believe Jesus to be. A tyrannical spiteful unjust unmerciful judgemental despot. You don't know Him.

Same word is used for eternal and everlasting in the Greek - thus if torment is not everlasting, then there is no eternal life.

Curtis · Oct 13, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Once the Kingdom was established in the heavens, there was no point in Jesus taking his disciples to heaven if he was just going to bring them back to the earth. NO. His kingdom rules from heaven over earthly subjects. Jesus went back to heaven to prepare a place for his elect.....that is where they will dwell forever. They do not have to be on earth to do that.

Souls go to heaven now, to be with Jesus per 2 Corinthians 5, as seen in heaven by John.

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

In Thessalonians 4, Jesus comes to raise the dead bodies of the saints and reunite them with the souls He brings with Him from heaven.

Yes, when He returns for those bodies to raise from the dead, He at the same time brings the saints WITH HIM from heaven.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So you are mistaken.

You also have it wrong about the kingdom.

There are tons of old testament and New Testament prophecies that Jesus will reign on earth forever from Jerusalem on the eternal throne of King David.

From the time Jesus returns to Mount Olive in Zechariah 14:5, from where He ascended in Acts 1, He stays in that city forever, says Zechariah 14:16-21, and in revelation 21 the city New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and God and Jesus dwell there with His people forever.

This has to be a literal city on earth since Jesus dwells in it, and since He reigns on earth forever.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”

Zep 3:14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!

Zep 3:15 The LORD has taken away the judgments against you; he has cleared away your enemies. The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst; you shall never again fear evil.

Zep 3:16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: “Fear not, O Zion; let not your hands grow weak.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

Curtis · Oct 13, 2021

BarnyFife said:
No, they don’t. Briefly, when you compare 2 Cor. 5:8 with verse 4, and then with 1 Cor. 15:51-55, it becomes very clear that Paul’s “absent from the body” statement meant that believers will be “present with the Lord” on Resurrection Day, not before (compare also with 1 Thess. 4:17). The story of the rich man and Lazarus was “a parable” (compare Luke 16:19 with Luke 19:11, 12), not an actual account, for how else can you explain Lazarus ascending into “Abraham’s bosom”? Finally, if you remove the punctuation from Luke 23:43, which was added hundreds of years after the New Testament was written, then Christ’s actual promise to the thief on the cross would be, “Truly I say to you today [right now] you will be [in the future] with Me in Paradise.” We know this is what Jesus meant because He didn’t go to Paradise that day, but into Joseph’s new tomb (see Luke 23:52,53). After rising from the dead, Christ told Mary, “I have not yet ascended to My Father” (John 20:17). Thus Jesus Himself did not go to heaven until after His resurrection.

That won’t wash, because what Paul says falsifies completely the claim that the soul sleeps with the dead body in the dirt, since he makes it clear that, far from the soul being connected with the body so that both snooze in the dirt until the resurrection, the body is just a house - that just like our home that we can leave since it’s not part of us - we leave our house the body and become present with the Lord.

Body = house said Paul.

Reading the whole passage makes it ridiculously clear:

2Co 5:1 For we know that when this tent we live in—our body here on earth—is torn down, God will have a house in heaven for us to live in, a home he himself has made, which will last forever.

2Co 5:2 And now we sigh, so great is our desire that our home which comes from heaven should be put on over us;

2Co 5:3 by being clothed with it we shall not be without a body.

2Co 5:4 While we live in this earthly tent, we groan with a feeling of oppression; it is not that we want to get rid of our earthly body, but that we want to have the heavenly one put on over us, so that what is mortal will be transformed by life.

2Co 5:5 God is the one who has prepared us for this change, and he gave us his Spirit as the guarantee of all that he has in store for us.

2Co 5:6 So we are always full of courage. We know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord's home.

2Co 5:7 For our life is a matter of faith, not of sight.

2Co 5:8 We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

That our body is a tent and home that we leave and become absent from, wrecks soul sleep which claims the soul never leaves the body at death.

And there are three Old Testament verses that confirms that the soul leaves the body at death, that I’ve given before.

Thus quoting passages abut perishing or being destroyed are talking about the body, and are irrelevant .

n2thelight · Oct 13, 2021

Desire Of All Nations said:
Solomon judges that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there accounting neither days nor years, but when are awaked(resurrected) they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."

"Thus after death, the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping, it does not realize that its sleep, and God preserves the awakened soul. God is able to awake Elijah(it is certainly interesting that Martin knew Elijah died and did not go to Heaven, again contradicting the modern Protestant belief that he is still alive in Heaven), Moses, and others...so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace."

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

Pythagorean12 · Oct 13, 2021

Sleep is supported by scripture just as is the soul that returns to God.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:7And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit to God who gave it.

Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

Besides 2 Corinthians 5 which destroys soul sleep, Revelation 6 puts the final nail in its coffin by showing souls in heaven talking to God and asking how long until those who killed them are punished:

Their bodies are dead, they were killed on earth, yet they are in heaven having a conversation:

Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.

Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"

Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.

It just can’t get any clearer than that, that the soul leaves the body at death, and goes to be with the Lord, as 2 Corinthians 5:8 states.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

n2thelight said:
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, where the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

Agreed.

Before Jesus came, there were two compartments in the heart of the earth at that time. One compartment, called Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, held all of the righteous dead, because no soul could go to heaven until Messiah atoned for sins.

It was separated by a great chasm from the torments compartment that the damned were put in, called Hell.

Jesus tells us about this in Luke 16 starting in verse 19. This is not a parable, as it names specific people: Lazarus, and Abraham.

When Jesus died His spirit descended into the heart, middle of the earth, and He preached to those spirits held in captivity there, most likely telling them He is Messiah and the Son of God who died for sins.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and PREACHED unto the SPIRITS in PRISON.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

When He rose from the dead he emptied out paradise and took their spirits with them, which is why many dead people also rose and went into the city, after His resurrection.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION , and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now those who die in Christ go to heaven - He moved paradise from in the earth, to heaven because He atoned for sins.

Pythagorean12 · Oct 14, 2021

Curtis said:
Besides 2 Corinthians 5 which destroys soul sleep, Revelation 6 puts the final nail in its coffin by showing souls in heaven talking to God and asking how long until those who killed them are punished:

Their bodies are dead, they were killed on earth, yet they are in heaven having a conversation:

Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.

Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"

Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.

It just can’t get any clearer than that, that the soul leaves the body at death, and goes to be with the Lord, as 2 Corinthians 5:8 states.

You might consider there are scriptures that sustain both sides. Because they are there.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

Pythagorean12 said:
Sleep is supported by scripture just as is the soul that returns to God.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:7And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit to God who gave it.

Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

It’s absolutely refuted by revelation 6 where John sees souls who were killed on earth, asking God how long it will be before those who killed them are punished.

John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there, asking how long until those who killed them are punished.

Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.

Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"

Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.

They’ve been killed on the earth but their souls are in heaven having a conversation with God

Maranatha

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

Pythagorean12 said:
Sleep is supported by scripture just as is the soul that returns to God.

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:7And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit to God who gave it.

Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecc 12:7 then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

Pythagorean12 said:
You might consider there are scriptures that sustain both sides. Because they are there.

Yes there are scriptures that talk about the state of dead bodies being one of sleeping, and other scriptures showing that the soul leaves the body at death.

But there are not contradictory scriptures both proving and disproving soul seep.

Maranatha

Aunty Jane · Oct 14, 2021

Curtis said:
Souls go to heaven now, to be with Jesus per 2 Corinthians 5,

There is no scripture that says "souls" go to heaven. "Souls" are living breathing creatures....not disembodied spirits.
1 Corinthians 15:35-44...
"But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (NASB)

Paul speaks of the resurrection......not of immortal souls flitting off to heaven. They die in their mortal flesh but are raised in a new spiritual body, but not until Christ's return....this is a body that can actually dwell in the heavenly presence of God.

Curtis said:
as seen in heaven by John.
John the revelator was caught up into heaven, and saw SOULS there.

In order to be resurrected, the elect have to die in their flesh and are then resurrected in a spirit body as Jesus was. (1 Peter 3:18)
All would sleep in their graves until Jesus came to take them "home".

There are no "souls" in heaven, only spirits, since souls have to breathe and eat and drink in order to remain alive.....the "souls" John saw were the executed whilst in the flesh......he did not see headless spirits. This was a vision presented in signs...remember?

Whether finishing their earthly course by a violent martyr’s death or not, all the elected Kingdom heirs have to die in a physical way. When resurrected in spirit bodies, they can then enter into the kingdom of the heavens and sit down on those judicial thrones up there. It is not by any immortality of the human soul, but is by a resurrection from the dead.
Says John concerning “those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God”: “And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

Curtis said:
In Thessalonians 4, Jesus comes to raise the dead bodies of the saints and reunite them with the souls He brings with Him from heaven.

Yes, when He returns for those bodies to raise from the dead, He at the same time brings the saints WITH HIM from heaven.

Jesus does not need a single molecule of a dead person to resurrect them. Some people have no physical grave. If they had been taken by a shark, a wild animal or a croc....if they have been cremated, or buried at sea.... if there are no earthly remains left of them....Jesus will recreate a body for them...a heavenly one, (no one knows what they will look like, and spirits are invisible anyway) or an earthly one that they themselves and others will recognize.

And yes, Jesus will bring his elect with him because in these last days he has been present with them as he promised. (Matthew 28:19-20)
His "parousia" and his "coming" are two separate events.....his "presence" occurred at the beginning of the time of the end, and his "manifestation" is at the finale, when all of his "bride" will join him.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first:

The elect have been resurrected during the last 100 years since Christ's return. The "first" resurrection has already happened. It only needs the final stages of the end times, (which I believe that we are undergoing now) to finish this evil world off for good.

Curtis said:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When the end comes, those who remain on earth will not need to "sleep", but will shed their earthly bodies and be transformed instantaneously to join their King and their brothers for the final showdown.

Curtis said:
So you are mistaken.

You also have it wrong about the kingdom.

Or perhaps you do. Again I ask if you have a brotherhood who believe as you do? Do you meet together regularly for worship?
If not, then you do not have the truth. There are no 'lone Christians'.

There are tons of old testament and New Testament prophecies that Jesus will reign on earth forever from Jerusalem on the eternal throne of King David.

Where was the throne of David? Wasn't it in Jerusalem?...on Mount Zion? What does Revelation 21:2-4 say?
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
This is not earthly Jerusalem, but a new heavenly city seen bringing its rulership to earthly subjects. God cannot physically dwell with humans but he can still be "with" them just as Jesus has been "with" his disciples during these last days.

Jesus foretold that there would not be an earthly location for God's capital territory. The Samaritan woman at the well...the first person to whom he confessed to being the Messiah.....said...
"Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and yet you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time is coming, and even now has arrived, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
(John 4:20-24)

Jesus said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

Hebrews 12:22
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels".

Curtis said:
This has to be a literal city on earth since Jesus dwells in it, and since He reigns on earth forever.

If it was a literal city, it would not fit anywhere on earth....
This city is a perfect cube 12,000 furlongs (about 1,380 miles) [2,220 km]) in perimeter, surrounded by a wall 144 cubits, or 210 feet [64 m], in height. No literal city could ever have such measurements. It would cover a territory about 14 times as large as modern Israel, and it would tower almost 350 miles [560 km] into outer space! (Revelation 21:15-21)

This city is in heaven.....

quietthinker · Oct 14, 2021

Curtis said:
Besides 2 Corinthians 5 which destroys soul sleep, Revelation 6 puts the final nail in its coffin by showing souls in heaven talking to God and asking how long until those who killed them are punished:

Their bodies are dead, they were killed on earth, yet they are in heaven having a conversation:

Rev 6:9 Then the Lamb broke open the fifth seal. I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they had proclaimed God's word and had been faithful in their witnessing.

Rev 6:10 They shouted in a loud voice, "Almighty Lord, holy and true! How long will it be until you judge the people on earth and punish them for killing us?"

Rev 6:11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the complete number of other servants and believers were killed, as they had been.

It just can’t get any clearer than that, that the soul leaves the body at death, and goes to be with the Lord, as 2 Corinthians 5:8 states.

Seeing it is so clear for you and you interpret this literally ie, re souls under the alter perhaps you could tell us about the alter and what its there for as well as what the souls are doing under the alter ....besides, there are no doubt millions upon millions under this alter which means it must be a very big alter......and they're calling for revenge...hmmmm...as if those loving souls are itching to get some blood flowing.....perhaps you could explain that also.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

quietthinker said:
Seeing it is so clear for you and you interpret this literally ie, re souls under the alter perhaps you could tell us about the alter and what its there for as well as what the souls are doing under the alter ....besides, there are no doubt millions upon millions under this alter which means it must be a very big alter......and they're calling for revenge...hmmmm...as if those loving souls are itching to get some blood flowing.....perhaps you could explain that also.

The temple in heaven is a copy of the Levitical altar, which was raised, and the blood of the sacrifices ran down under the altar.

This altar is mentioned in Rev 8:3 as being before the throne of God.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

According to Hebrews 8:5 the altar on earth is a copy of the one in heaven that Jesus presented Himself in, in heaven.

The earthly sacrificial altar was elevated , and under the altar is where the blood of sacrificial offerings ran down from the top.

This is not a symbolic altar since the earthly altar was a copy of it.

I have no idea how big it is, or how much space a soul occupies, but that the souls aren’t symbolic is evident.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

White robes are given to the saints during the wedding supper of the lamb.

There’s no reason to try to make the souls under the altar mere symbols to perpetuate dirt nap doctrine - they are martyrs coming out of the great tribulation, killed by the antichrist.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Souls are seen in heaven, souls of the martyrs killed by the antichrist, who speak, they are not asleep in the mud on earth.

As Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 5, those souls became absent from their house of their bodies at death, and present with the Lord.

Soul sleep is unbiblical - only the body sleeps at death, not the soul.

Maranatha

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
There is no scripture that says "souls" go to heaven. "Souls" are living breathing creatures....not disembodied spirits.
1 Corinthians 15:35-44...
"But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of mankind, another flesh of animals, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." (NASB)

Paul speaks of the resurrection......not of immortal souls flitting off to heaven. They die in their mortal flesh but are raised in a new spiritual body, but not until Christ's return....this is a body that can actually dwell in the heavenly presence of God.

In order to be resurrected, the elect have to die in their flesh and are then resurrected in a spirit body as Jesus was. (1 Peter 3:18)
All would sleep in their graves until Jesus came to take them "home".

There are no "souls" in heaven, only spirits, since souls have to breathe and eat and drink in order to remain alive.....the "souls" John saw were the executed whilst in the flesh......he did not see headless spirits. This was a vision presented in signs...remember?

Whether finishing their earthly course by a violent martyr’s death or not, all the elected Kingdom heirs have to die in a physical way. When resurrected in spirit bodies, they can then enter into the kingdom of the heavens and sit down on those judicial thrones up there. It is not by any immortality of the human soul, but is by a resurrection from the dead.
Says John concerning “those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God”: “And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

Jesus does not need a single molecule of a dead person to resurrect them. Some people have no physical grave. If they had been taken by a shark, a wild animal or a croc....if they have been cremated, or buried at sea.... if there are no earthly remains left of them....Jesus will recreate a body for them...a heavenly one, (no one knows what they will look like, and spirits are invisible anyway) or an earthly one that they themselves and others will recognize.

And yes, Jesus will bring his elect with him because in these last days he has been present with them as he promised. (Matthew 28:19-20)
His "parousia" and his "coming" are two separate events.....his "presence" occurred at the beginning of the time of the end, and his "manifestation" is at the finale, when all of his "bride" will join him.

The elect have been resurrected during the last 100 years since Christ's return. The "first" resurrection has already happened. It only needs the final stages of the end times, (which I believe that we are undergoing now) to finish this evil world off for good.

When the end comes, those who remain on earth will not need to "sleep", but will shed their earthly bodies and be transformed instantaneously to join their King and their brothers for the final showdown.

Or perhaps you do. Again I ask if you have a brotherhood who believe as you do? Do you meet together regularly for worship?
If not, then you do not have the truth. There are no 'lone Christians'.

Where was the throne of David? Wasn't it in Jerusalem?...on Mount Zion? What does Revelation 21:2-4 say?
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
This is not earthly Jerusalem, but a new heavenly city seen bringing its rulership to earthly subjects. God cannot physically dwell with humans but he can still be "with" them just as Jesus has been "with" his disciples during these last days.

Jesus foretold that there would not be an earthly location for God's capital territory. The Samaritan woman at the well...the first person to whom he confessed to being the Messiah.....said...
"Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and yet you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time is coming, and even now has arrived, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
(John 4:20-24)

Jesus said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

Hebrews 12:22
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels".

If it was a literal city, it would not fit anywhere on earth....
This city is a perfect cube 12,000 furlongs (about 1,380 miles) [2,220 km]) in perimeter, surrounded by a wall 144 cubits, or 210 feet [64 m], in height. No literal city could ever have such measurements. It would cover a territory about 14 times as large as modern Israel, and it would tower almost 350 miles [560 km] into outer space! (Revelation 21:15-21)

This city is in heaven.....

You present yoo much error to try to correct - I’m not going to spend hours refuting you when the OP is irrefutable.

You use scripture true of resurrected saints to try to refute the fact that souls go to heaven without bodies, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies at the second coming of Jesus, where He brings the souls of the saints WITH HIM, to be reunited with their bodies, per the scripture cited in the OP.

quietthinker · Oct 14, 2021

Curtis said:
The temple in heaven is a copy of the Levitical altar, which was raised, and the blood of the sacrifices ran down under the altar.

This altar is mentioned in Rev 8:3 as being before the throne of God.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

According to Hebrews 8:5 the altar on earth is a copy of the one in heaven that Jesus presented Himself in, in heaven.

The earthly sacrificial altar was elevated , and under the altar is where the blood of sacrificial offerings ran down from the top.

This is not a symbolic altar since the earthly altar was a copy of it.

I have no idea how big it is, or how much space a soul occupies, but that the souls aren’t symbolic is evident.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

White robes are given to the saints during the wedding supper of the lamb.

There’s no reason to try to make the souls under the altar mere symbols to perpetuate dirt nap doctrine - they are martyrs coming out of the great tribulation, killed by the antichrist.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Souls are seen in heaven, souls of the martyrs killed by the antichrist, who speak, they are not asleep in the mud on earth.

As Paul said in 2nd Corinthians 5, those souls became absent from their house of their bodies at death, and present with the Lord.

Soul sleep is unbiblical - only the body sleeps at death, not the soul.

Maranatha

Curtis said:
You present yoo much error to try to correct - I’m not going to spend hours refuting you

Your quote....now its mine!

BarneyFife · Oct 14, 2021

We see then, that it is possible for a capacious mind to be filled with an elaborate, convoluted theory of dualism/spiritualism that knows no bounds in inventing objections to the simple truth that to die is to be dead.

For example, right in the middle of the much-used passage in 2 Corinthians 5 (verse 3) itself lies the objection that the intermediate state (nakedness--or spiritualistic limbo) is not desirable, and not held out as feasible. It has already been refuted in other ways but, evidently, re-assertion constitutes refutation in some eyes.

To fortify this error the dismissive and derogatory terms "soul sleep" and "dirt nap doctrine" are used for dramatic effect to bolster the presentation and assertion of erroneous doctrine.

Genesis 3:4 : And the serpent (devil) said unto the woman (the church), Ye shall not surely die:

BarneyFife · Oct 14, 2021

Curtis said:
True facts are not bombastic, thus your comment is moot.

Bombasticity has nothing to do with validity of content.

Curtis · Oct 14, 2021

BarnyFife said:
Bombasticity has nothing to do with validity of content.

Bombastic:
adjective

high-sounding but with little meaning; inflated.
"bombastic rhetoric"

My comment was biblical truth, not bombastic - however, cognitive dissonance is evident in your responses to biblical truth.

Refuting soul sleep, aka dirt nap doctrine

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