John 14:6 and Context

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Belief that Jesus rose again is essential for salvation. To deny Jesus rose bodily, is to deny the resurrection.

It is absolutely 100% proven beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus was resurrected bodily and physically.

First, He said when the temple of His body was torn down, it would be restored:

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Joh 2:20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

Joh 2:21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Joh 2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

After His resurrection, when the apostles were afraid of Him, thinking He was a ghost (like the watchtower claims He is) Jesus stated unequivocally that He’s not a ghostly spirit, “BECAUSE A SPIRIT HAS NOT FLESH AND BONE, as you SEE I HAVE”, and to further prove it, He had them touch His body, and He ate a meal of fish:

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Luke 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

The watchtower is teaching the exact same error the apostles had when they first saw the risen Jesus, that Jesus Himself proved was wrong.

Jesus absolutely rose bodily from the dead. Period.
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
You could have pointed out that John 14:1-3 is a key passage regarding the Rapture of the Church -- indeed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. "I will come again and receive you unto myself" corresponds to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 where it says that "the Lord HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven". Also the Rapture has always been imminent (unexpected and unannounced, which means that it could even be today). But it will only take place when "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11).
Hello @Enoch111,

Thank you for taking part in the thread @Enoch111, yes, and my omission became your commission. :)

Yes, it will come to pass in God's good time.

It was the hope held by the Acts church: it was what they looked for; which had the potential to have taken place within their lifetime had Israel repented; and the course of prophetic events would have taken place. Now it is in abeyance: awaiting a time far in advance of their reckoning.

The Church which is His Body now look for the appearing of their Head in glory, when they will appear with Him there. (Colossians 3:4; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
seems to me that Jesus would be a pretty big “observable sign” in that case? dunno
Jesus describing Himself as “the kingdom of heaven” is also a rather tortured interpretation to me
we two currently function under different definitions of “Jesus” tho, i guess

so, my reply here is that there are other possibilities, imo; the kingdom of heaven might be “in our midst” even absent a literal Jesus, or it might even be a reflection of “Christ in us,” dunno, but i would be suspect of any interpretation that denies no one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it and There is only One Immortal, personally.

iow if the intent is to retain the possibility of attaining a literal heaven in an “afterlife” for the soul—which it seems it invariably is?i would currently be skeptical.

The theme of the entire Bible is the Kingdom Byrd, it is a literal government that is coming. It is already established in the heavens, and Jesus has been given the crown. The next step is it's coming to earth with the return of Jesus to remove all governments Dan 2:44
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
'But every man in His own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'

(1 Corinthians 15:53)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

Thank you for responding.
* You mention the role that the 12 disciples will play in the plan and purpose of God. It is shown in the following verses:-

'And Jesus said unto them (the 12 disciples),
"Verily I say unto you,
.. That ye which have followed me,
.... in the regeneration
(Acts of the Apostles 3:21; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:5)
...... when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory,
........ ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones,
.......... judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters,
.. or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for My Name's sake,
.... shall receive an hundredfold,
...... and shall inherit everlasting life. ... '''

(Mat 19:28-29)

* Except for the resurrection of certain believers at the death of the Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:52-53), there has been no recorded resurrection of the dead. They, I believe, were, like Lazarus, given life: natural life; but would like him also be still subject to death.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

We believe Rev 20:6 has happened Chris. Do you think Jesus has been enthroned as King in the heavens now?
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I quoted scriptures.

So the fact is, either Jesus was resurrected bodily or as a spirit. I say he was resurrected as a spirit being, returning to heaven as he came, that is either correct or incorrect, but a relevant doctrine that should be understood as it is key in God's plan for the earth.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
'And when He had spoken these things,
.. while they beheld, He was taken up;
.... and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up,
.. behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
.... Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee,
...... why stand ye gazing up into heaven?
........ this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
.......... shall so come in like manner
............ as ye have seen Him go into heaven."'

(Act 1:9-11)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

Though addressed to @Curtis, I hope you will not mind my responding.

* The account above in, Acts 1, makes it clear that the Lord Jesus Christ rose bodily from the earth. Paul also tells us in Ephesians 4:10., that, 'He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.'

* You refer to a verse in 1 Peter, 'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: ... ' (1 Peter 3:18). This merely confirms that our Lord was put to death in the flesh, but that He was quickened (ie., brought to life) by the Spirit.

* No, our Lord was very much, 'flesh and bones,' and not 'a spirit', as our Lord Himself told His disciples in Luke 24:39:-

'Behold My hands and My feet,
that it is I Myself:
handle Me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,
as ye see me have.'


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I understand your understanding of 1 Peter 3:18, and you have our opinion on the resurrection. We believe Jesus' sacrificed his flesh and blood and returned to heaven in the form he was before he left heaven to come to the earth. As recorded in the Bible many times when spirit beings were sent to the earth, they manifested physical bodies, as did Jesus, but of course none of the bodies Jesus ever appeared in after his death was recognized by his close friends, therefore obviously not the body that was sacrificed. Our understanding of 1 Pet 3:18 is different as the rendering in the version of the Bible we use is understandably different, which goes hand in hand with other Bible verses.

We believe Jesus nor any who go to heaven will do so in their physical bodies, that is why those that are left upon Jesus return will be "changed" 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thes 4:17
 

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
We believe Rev 20:6 has happened Chris. Do you think Jesus has been enthroned as King in the heavens now?
'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with Him a thousand years.'

(Rev 20:6)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

With respect I do not want to view the Scriptures through the lens of the doctrinal stance of any organisation. I only want to discuss what the Scriptures actually say.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I understand your understanding of 1 Peter 3:18, and you have our opinion on the resurrection. We believe Jesus' sacrificed his flesh and blood and returned to heaven in the form he was before he left heaven to come to the earth. As recorded in the Bible many times when spirit beings were sent to the earth, they manifested physical bodies, as did Jesus, but of course none of the bodies Jesus ever appeared in after his death was recognized by his close friends, therefore obviously not the body that was sacrificed. Our understanding of 1 Pet 3:18 is different as the rendering in the version of the Bible we use is understandably different, which goes hand in hand with other Bible verses.

We believe Jesus nor any who go to heaven will do so in their physical bodies, that is why those that are left upon Jesus return will be "changed" 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thes 4:17
Hello @Robert Gwin,

Again, what your organisation has to say concerning these things is of no interest to me: for I want to hear only one voice, and that is God's still small voice, speaking in the stillness while I wait on Him. His word unsullied by human interpretation is what interests me.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hello @Robert Gwin,

Again, what your organisation has to say concerning these things is of no interest to me, for I want to hear only one voice, and that is what God has to say in His Word.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Again, either what we say is correct or incorrect maam. You did not answer my question, do you believe Jesus is the now reigning King?
 

Desire Of All Nations

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2021
748
408
63
Troy
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is so much self assured confusion in this thread, and it's all based on the false doctrines that a soul is immortal and that Heaven is the Christian's reward. Not only does God not state twice in Eze. 18 that the soul can die, Christ plainly stated in Jhn 3:13 no human being besides Himself will ever go to Heaven. Genesis does not show God putting a soul in Adam; it shows God breathing life into what was a pile of dust that was made in His likeness. God plainly told Adam he was dust and that he would return to being dust when he died, and again there is nothing said about how a soul would come out of Adam when he died.

Christ plainly quoted David's psalms in Matt. 5 where He said ruling this earth is the Christians' reward. Christ is preparing offices and positions of authority for His people and will bring those rewards here, as Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 clearly shows. Nobody should be subscribing to pagan doctrines of the immortal soul or going to heaven if they would just believe what their bibles say and unlearn the false traditions of men.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I am one of Jehovah's witnesses sir.
ah ok
The theme of the entire Bible is the Kingdom Byrd, it is a literal government that is coming. It is already established in the heavens, and Jesus has been given the crown. The next step is it's coming to earth with the return of Jesus to remove all governments Dan 2:44
ok, well i would at least keep an open mind there, maybe accept that it may not happen “tomorrow” ezackly like it is forwarded and taught?

i mean i certainly dont know, ok? But i note that you have already accepted a contrived Name, and you cant Quote “Jesus hupo strepho” from anywhere in the NT…etc?

Return to Me and I will return to you

imo when you leave the world you basically remove all the government yourself, maybe?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
There is so much self assured confusion in this thread, and it's all based on the false doctrines that a soul is immortal and that Heaven is the Christian's reward. Not only does God not state twice in Eze. 18 that the soul can die, Christ plainly stated in Jhn 3:13 no human being besides Himself will ever go to Heaven. Genesis does not show God putting a soul in Adam; it shows God breathing life into what was a pile of dust that was made in His likeness. God plainly told Adam he was dust and that he would return to being dust when he died, and again there is nothing said about how a soul would come out of Adam when he died.

Christ plainly quoted David's psalms in Matt. 5 where He said ruling this earth is the Christians' reward. Christ is preparing offices and positions of authority for His people and will bring those rewards here, as Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 clearly shows. Nobody should be subscribing to pagan doctrines of the immortal soul or going to heaven if they would just believe what their bibles say and unlearn the false traditions of men.
“The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible” SClemens
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So the fact is, either Jesus was resurrected bodily or as a spirit. I say he was resurrected as a spirit being, returning to heaven as he came, that is either correct or incorrect, but a relevant doctrine that should be understood as it is key in God's plan for the earth.

There’s no such thing as spiritual resurrection.

Jesus spirit existed$ before He took an earthly body, and continued existing when His body died, thus there’s nothing to resurrect except His body,

If you deny His bodily resurrection you deny His resurrection, period.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Again, either what we say is correct or incorrect maam. You did not answer my question, do you believe Jesus is the now reigning King?
Hello @Robert Gwin,

It is you, and not your organisation, which has subscribed to this forum, and is entering into debates. It is you I am addressing and not your organisation. As a fellow participant on the forum, I would expect you to speak concerning your own understanding of what the Scriptures say, and not that of your organisation. If you are approaching these subjects as their representative, and not as an individual believer, then, with respect, I do not want to know.

When you can come and talk as Robert Gwin, and not as a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, then I will be happy to engage with you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah ok
ok, well i would at least keep an open mind there, maybe accept that it may not happen “tomorrow” ezackly like it is forwarded and taught?

i mean i certainly dont know, ok? But i note that you have already accepted a contrived Name, and you cant Quote “Jesus hupo strepho” from anywhere in the NT…etc?

Return to Me and I will return to you

imo when you leave the world you basically remove all the government yourself, maybe?

Although Christians are no part of the world Byrd, we do live in it of course. In fact we are to be obedient to them according to Romans 13:1-7, but not if they contradict God's laws Acts 5:29
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There’s no such thing as spiritual resurrection.

Jesus spirit existed$ before He took an earthly body, and continued existing when His body died, thus there’s nothing to resurrect except His body,

If you deny His bodily resurrection you deny His resurrection, period.

Jesus did not continue to exist for over 2 days sir, he was dead.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

charity

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2017
3,234
3,192
113
75
UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Again, either what we say is correct or incorrect maam. You did not answer my question, do you believe Jesus is the now reigning King?
'But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,
sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool.'

(Heb 10:12)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

You asked if I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is now reigning.

The prophecy as to Christ's enemies' being put under His feet' (Psalms 110:1) is referred to six times in the New Testament. Christ is now at God's right hand 'until His enemies shall have been placed (as) a footstool for His feet.' (see Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42; Acts of the apostles 2:34; Hebrews 1:13 and Hebrews 10:12-13). Then He will arise and use this footstool, treading His enemies under His feet (Psalms 18:37-50). This is the subject of the book of Revelation; and the result and fulfilment of it is recorded in 1 Corinthians 15:25, which speaks of Christ's after-reign, 'For He must reign till He hath put (lit., shall have put) all enemies under His feet.' So that the two acts are carefully distinguished. First, the placing of the footstool; and then the using of it; The one is at the beginning of the 'day of the Lord,' the other is at the end of His reign.

* I have now tied up that loose end from reply#50.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus did not continue to exist for over 2 days sir, he was dead.
He was not dead. His body was.

He descended into the heart of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison there, says scripture- but obviously you and the Watchtower are forced to ignore that and all the related scriptures to remain in your error.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,466
2,500
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is so much self assured confusion in this thread, and it's all based on the false doctrines that a soul is immortal and that Heaven is the Christian's reward. Not only does God not state twice in Eze. 18 that the soul can die, Christ plainly stated in Jhn 3:13 no human being besides Himself will ever go to Heaven. Genesis does not show God putting a soul in Adam; it shows God breathing life into what was a pile of dust that was made in His likeness. God plainly told Adam he was dust and that he would return to being dust when he died, and again there is nothing said about how a soul would come out of Adam when he died.

Christ plainly quoted David's psalms in Matt. 5 where He said ruling this earth is the Christians' reward. Christ is preparing offices and positions of authority for His people and will bring those rewards here, as Zech. 14 and Rev. 22 clearly shows. Nobody should be subscribing to pagan doctrines of the immortal soul or going to heaven if they would just believe what their bibles say and unlearn the false traditions of men.

Sorry, but you are throwing out some false assumptions you've obviously learned from somewhere else, and not from God's Word, most likely from the Jew's doctrine, because that's where the 'dead in the ground' theory originated from.

When our flesh dies, we, our soul, does NOT die...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV

Jesus showed there that the 'soul' does NOT die with the flesh, but continues to live.

The word "hell" is actually pointing to the valley of Hinnom, which is put for the future "lake of fire" that death, hell, Satan, and the wicked all perish into after Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect.

Luke 23:42-43
42 And he said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom."
43 And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with Me in paradise."

KJV

Here's the real anchor by Lord Jesus, giving some details about the heavenly Paradise...

Luke 16:22-31
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

27 Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
29 Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
30 And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
31 And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

KJV

Jesus lays the hammer, if the unbelieving Jews refuse to believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe even though one rose from the dead (Jesus Christ). That shows how deep in deception and lack of understanding the unbelieving Jews are in. The false 'dead in the ground' theory is just one aspect of their spiritual blindness.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

Do you realize that some preachers are so convinced with the 'dead in the ground' theory, that they will go so far as to say those "spirits in prison" are demons? that Lord Jesus actually preached The Gospel to demons?? How crazy is that? Any excuse to not believe the written Scripture is their curse.


1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


Matt 22:29-32
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
KJV


Matt 17:1-4
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."
KJV
 
Status
Not open for further replies.