Paul

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Stumpmaster

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But aren't you saying that we have to treat his words as if they are God's words?
There is a reason the Bible is called The Word of God.


2Co 2:17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.


2Co 4:1-6 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. (2) But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (3) But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, (4) whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (5) For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. (6) For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


 
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Nancy

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The one where Paul says all scripture is beneficial.

How would that benefit Paul? Why would he be willing to die, be stoned, all manner of tribulation...unto his death? How is that beneficial to a false prophet? He goes from hating and persecuting Christians and being a Pharisee of Pharisees to becoming a persecuted Christian himself, willingly!
And what of those who were on the road to Damascus with him? And what of Ananias who laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?

I have a very hard time believing that the huge majority of the NT, being written by Paul is false. I don't think God would have given His Word with such falseness.
 
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Bruce Atkinson

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I believe Jesus showed Paul the "hidden manna" in the Old Testament. By "hidden manna" I mean the spiritual meaning and intention meant in the Law that God gave to Moses.
For instance when Jesus says, Ye have heard it said... and comes back with, And I say... he is showing us the spiritual intention in the law.
The entire Old Testament is ( I said turned inside out) meaning that spiritual interpetation was revealed.

Being a Pharisee, Paul was extremely knowledgeable in the Old Testament. Did Jesus show him secrets ('hidden manna') in the OT? I doubt that. Things that God wanted hidden stayed hidden -

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (KJV)

Meanwhile, Paul repeated the same thing twice -

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (KJV)

If God the Father wanted Jesus to reveal some of those 'hidden manna' secrets to Israel, Jesus would have done so. In the Sermon on the Mount, I wouldn't call it so much 'hidden manna' as a more detailed description beyond what the letter of the law showed.

Perhaps we are simply using different terminology for the same thing. For example

Matthew 5:27-28 (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What Jesus told to all present (all Jews, but maybe a handful of curious Gentiles (Greeks?) as well) at His Sermon on the Mount was essentially a revealing of spiritual truths, but also spiritual explanation of the law, such as more detailed view of Mosaic Laws including the 10 commandments. As He said in Matthew 5:28, He is going beyond 'the letter of the law' and explaining more detail what God likely intended for Israel to spiritually 'figure out'. Was it 'hidden' from Israel in the law? Or was it more like spiritual blindness towards what the law was intended to do? Maybe Israel simply needed a 'whack upside the head' to 'wake them up'. In the end, it was the spiritual blindness of Israel that caused them to deny that Jesus was, indeed, their promised Messiah.

On the other side of the coin, the Sermon on the Mount also cleared up some 'extensions to the written laws' that the Pharisees created presumably in the interest of 'protecting' the laws and making them easier to follow. That's why Jesus used the phrase 'you have heard it said'....I've been told that Pharisaical law ('extensions') were oral only, not written, and Jesus gently refuted them -

Matthew 5:33-37 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (KJV)

Leviticus 19:12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. (KJV)

The above verse, part of a restating of the 10 commandments, makes the 5th commandment a bit more clear. Nowhere did the law say anything about swearing by Gods' name or swearing an oath in ones' own name. How many times have we heard or even said "I swear in Gods' name that I'll ..." That is what the Pharisees inappropriately 'added' to the law. So Jesus 'straightened them out', as it were.

Did Jesus reveal or expand hidden truths in the OT to Paul? What did you have in mind? Other God generally condemning the Gentiles in the OT, there's very little about Jesus and the Gentiles in the OT. In the verses below, Isaiah is prophetically writing about Jesus.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (KJV)

The last verse speaks of Jesus' death on the cross for the sins of the world being the salvation to the Gentiles...not Israel.

Remember that after spending 3 years in Arabia with the Lord Jesus is when he began his ministry as the apostle to the Gentiles. If there were 'secrets' in the OT intended for Gentiles, it was kept hidden then and is still hidden today as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure Jesus didn't tell Paul something like: 'look at this OT verse or group of verses...in it is hidden that....' Nowhere in the OT is there ANY reference that I can find that speaks directly of Jesus death for the sins of the world. I can't recall its being in any of the 4 Gospels, either. Yes, His death on Passover was specifically chosen by God to prove to Israel is that Jesus was the full sacrifice for sin that Israel needed. And just as God provided the sacrifice He had directed Abraham to perform rather than his son Isaac, God did the same thing for Israel and the world when He provided the sacrifice...Jesus. It wasn't apparent that Jesus shed blood for sin would be salvation for Gentiles until Jesus clearly taught Paul in Arabia. Also, nowhere in the OT did it state that believe in salvation by grace alone (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) until Jesus told Paul -

Ephesians 3:1 (KJV)
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians1:24-27 (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Is there any reason to think the above mysteries (secrets) were somehow hidden in the OT? I strongly doubt it.
 

Bruce Atkinson

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Like when Paul is talking about Sarah and Hagar, he brings a spiritual meaning to it, the one in bondage and the one that is free.

Looking at the verses below, Paul writes of Abrahams' faith in God, ie, taking God at His Word as why Sarah bore Isaac.

Romans 4:18-22 (KJV)
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Pauls' references to bondage is always in reference to being in bondage to the law, not in Hagar being an Egyptian slave. Look at the verses from Galatians 4 below -

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Galatians 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (I'll add: to the law)
Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (KJV)

The reference to Hagar being Mt Sinai is referring to where God gave the 10 commandments to Moses, thus, the beginning of the law. The bondage in verse 25 speaks of Jerusalem (ie, Israel) being under bondage to the law.

It's interesting to note one of the realities repeated throughout the Bible:

1Corinthians 15:46-47 (KJV)
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Cain and Abel. Ishmael and Isaac. Esau and Jacob. Hagar was an example of the fleshly first, the spiritual second. Abraham went into Hagar 'in the flesh', not in the spirit. His faith in Gods' word so many years prior waned to the point he chose the fleshly solution first.

I believe Paul was accompnied by those that walked and talked and lived with Jesus. And beginning from his conversion on the road to Damascus, these men told Paul what they had witnessed and the Gospels were written at the same time the books of Acts is being lived.

I believe Paul is in prison at the time he wrote this:
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
2Ti 4:12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
2Ti 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

What are these parchments? I believe they are the scrolls of the OT, that Paul is translating from carnal to spiritual knowledge.

I addressed my thoughts about some of the disciples being with Paul in a prior post. I'll repeat what I wrote in post #153 on Friday - "If Paul was with them when each wrote their Gospel sometime after returning from Arabia, wouldn't there be some of Pauls' Gentile teachings, at least just a little bit, in the 4 Gospels?"

What's in the parchments? It could very likely be the OT. He was in prison and had left much behind from clothing to his library. Given his likely age (I think he was born a few years one way or the other of Jesus), his memory was likely starting to fade, like all of us old folks today. So having the OT handy as a reference is a valuable tool...no different than my looking at my Bible when writing these replies (I have 1000s of notes written in large print my Bible), but I also use a free Bible program - e-Sword - more frequently. Would Paul be 'gleaning' some hidden meanings from the OT? I doubt it. As I wrote in my previous post earlier tonight, there's next to nothing about Gentiles in the OT and God kept it hidden.

As far as seperating the law from grace... depends on ones interpretation of the word law.
God's law says we should love our neighbor as ourselves and to love him with all our heart and mind and soul.
God's law says not to steal or lie or commit adultery, respect your parents and don't commit murder, which includes hating someone without a cause.
I have no issues with these laws.
When it comes to the Levitical laws of animal sacrifices and the ceremonial laws, these I beleve have all been filled by Christ himself.

Without law there is only lawlessness. And we see where that's heading.
I believe Paul is the sword (vessel) by which the Word is divided from carnal knowledge to spiritual understanding.

I have no issues with Paul. Where would christianity be without his Epistles?

There is no need to 'intrepret' the law, except for our learning. We are not under the law! Separating law from grace is perhaps the biggest 'leap' possible in understanding Gods' Word. It took me longer than it should have for me to figure it out.

Paul wrote over and over that believers in salvation by grace alone through faith is all important -

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (KJV)

Romans 6:1-2 (KJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Does being under grace exempt us from the law that we may sin as we choose? Of course not! For us believers, the law is written in our heart at the moment of salvation.

Romans 2:14-15 (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

We naturally follow the law as it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that leads us. But we still have freedom of choice to follow the Spirit or the flesh. When we follow the flesh, we sin.

It's interesting to note that Romans 2:14-15 above essentially mimics the 'New Covenant' that God makes with Israel in Jeremiah 31 -

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We believers have the advantage of already having the law written in our hearts. Israel will have to wait until Jesus' 2nd coming for it to happen.
 
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BloodBought 1953

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There is a difference between saying that "Paul is a chosen instrument of the Lord," and "Paul is perfect."


Who was the Fool that said Paul was “ Perfect? It wasn’t me.....Good Students of the Word know that Paul Himself wrote that he had “ Never Attained” the level of Christianity he aspired to....
 

Bob Estey

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There is a reason the Bible is called The Word of God.


2Co 2:17 For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.


2Co 4:1-6 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. (2) But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (3) But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, (4) whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (5) For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. (6) For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

There are people who believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. It seems to me the Word of God are those times God and Jesus are quoted.
 

Bob Estey

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How would that benefit Paul? Why would he be willing to die, be stoned, all manner of tribulation...unto his death? How is that beneficial to a false prophet? He goes from hating and persecuting Christians and being a Pharisee of Pharisees to becoming a persecuted Christian himself, willingly!
And what of those who were on the road to Damascus with him? And what of Ananias who laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?

I have a very hard time believing that the huge majority of the NT, being written by Paul is false. I don't think God would have given His Word with such falseness.
It would be a self-fulfilling prophecy, wouldn't it?
 

Bob Estey

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Who was the Fool that said Paul was “ Perfect? It wasn’t me.....Good Students of the Word know that Paul Himself wrote that he had “ Never Attained” the level of Christianity he aspired to....
But people think his writings are perfect.
 

Nancy

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The entire Bible is the Word of God. If not it's just another book.
I'm totally with you here master of Stumps,
If you could not trust in the words God left us, what else to base ones belief on? It's all or nothing here, IMHO We cannot take parts of the bible out that we do not agree with and, it seems a large part of Paul's writings, have to do with behavior in a Christian, morality, especially of a sexual kind and all manner of sin. I cannot see where any of Paul's writings do not match up with the rest of scripture.


 

Bob Estey

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The entire Bible is the Word of God. If not it's just another book.
I didn't say it's just another book. Indeed, God and Jesus are quoted many times in the Bible, and there is much to learn from the other writer.s That doesn't mean the other writers were perfect.
 

marks

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I didn't say it's just another book. Indeed, God and Jesus are quoted many times in the Bible, and there is much to learn from the other writer.s That doesn't mean the other writers were perfect.

How would you know whether God and Jesus are quoted? You say, "other writers", other than God, that is, the only part I can think of that God wrote were the stone tablets of the 10 commandments. Are you saying the only part you accept of Scripture are the 10 commandments? And even so, aren't you relying on imperfect witnesses? So then how could you say with any reliablity or certainty at all that God and Jesus are in fact quoted, and if so, where?

If you remove divine inspiration as the source of Scripture, you remove any thought of reliablity from all of Scripture. It was all penned by human writers.

Much love!
 

BloodBought 1953

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I didn't say it's just another book. Indeed, God and Jesus are quoted many times in the Bible, and there is much to learn from the other writer.s That doesn't mean the other writers were perfect.



The Writers that God CHOSE to record His Holy Words were mainly Saved murderers—- Saved because of their Faith in the Promises Of God ( Moses, David and Paul) They we’re FAR from perfect.....it is the WORD that is Perfect.....not the men that put pen to paper .....a wise man would derive hope from these facts....
 

BloodBought 1953

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Then you worship both God and the Bible?


I “Worship” God Alone.....I “Appreciate” His Sacred Word ( The Bible) for the Gift that it is—- It reveals “ WHY” He and He ALONE merit my aforementioned Worship..... It allows us to KNOW God , and if and when that vital thing occurs, the Worship takes care of itself....
 
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