What sort of assumption makes one think.......
- Thread starter quietthinker
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
A mix of things including but not limited to: the Saints being given to rejoice in judgment in the Psalter, God ordering the destruction of various groups through the OT, the Lord Jesus destroying Jerusalem, and the doctrine of just war.
Depending on the passage it is possible that God did not in fact approve of various instances, but it would require looking at the specific passages.
Ultimatly God is going to deal with ( punish ) all who reject/hate him.
In the OT he laid down in his laws that for his people to reject him was death, that the worship of other gods was death, to promote other gods was death.
God authorised the agressive conquest of cannan and the use of lethal force in the defence of Israel.
This is basic Christianity and basic Christian history.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Headline: Prophet Calls Down Fire On Wicked King's Army Twice: 102 Soldiers Consumed.
- Local Theology Buff Claims Incident Typifies Spiritual Warfare -
2Ki 1:7-12 Then he said to them, "What kind of man was it who came up to meet you and told you these words?" (8) So they answered him, "A hairy man wearing a leather belt around his waist." And he said, "It is Elijah the Tishbite." (9) Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty with his fifty men. So he went up to him; and there he was, sitting on the top of a hill. And he spoke to him: "Man of God, the king has said, 'Come down!' " (10) So Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men." And fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. (11) Then he sent to him another captain of fifty with his fifty men. And he answered and said to him: "Man of God, thus has the king said, 'Come down quickly!' " (12) So Elijah answered and said to them, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men." And the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I'd agree with most of the sentiments already expressed. It assuages God's anger because it is a manifestation of it, and an expression of zeal for the Lord. It appears to comfort the Lord when others have the same earnestness to defend His people as He does, such as was the case with Phineas:
1 Now Israel remained in Acacia Grove, and the people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab. 2 They invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3 So Israel was joined to Baal of Peor, and the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel. 4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of the people, and hang the offenders before the Lord, out in the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel.” 5 So Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Every one of you kill his men who were joined to Baal of Peor.”
6 And indeed, one of the children of Israel came and presented to his brethren a Midianite woman in the sight of Moses and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 7 Now when Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose from among the congregation and took a javelin in his hand; 8 and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her body. So the plague was stopped among the children of Israel. 9 And those who died in the plague were twenty-four thousand.
10 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 11 “Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned back My wrath from the children of Israel, because he was zealous with My zeal among them, so that I did not consume the children of Israel in My zeal. 12 Therefore say, ‘Behold, I give to him My covenant of peace; 13 and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.’ ” (Numbers 25:1-13)
hmmmm, so it is assumed!
Would you allow the possibility of another angle or have you settled for the assumption?
Were you assuming God disapproved? We're these acts condemned someplace? Did Elijah do wrong to kill the priests of Ba'al?
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
A question. And a poorly worded one at that.
Not a thesis.
A statement of fact.
Not an assumption.
quietthinker, you should have humbly expressed the other angle in the OP - and got off the assumption track in writing the title of the thread. @marks post exposes your one-sided view that only others make assumptions while you have 'other angles.'
Your question is a setup, assuming everyone's answer is yes, then coyly asking if ones assumption is settled. What does that even mean? The set up drags on because after 10 posts, you STILL have not stated the premise of this thread, your 'other angle.' Kind of peculiar, my friend.
Are there any shades or colors other than black or white in God's plan? What kind of vision does each of us have? Is our vision of His plan improving or diminishing?
What can dead men see?
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I think that was understood, Wrangler. He's likely just inviting conversation first.
Don't sweat it. I'm guessing he's got something up his sleeve (Satan encouraging David to take a census maybe, or something along those lines?). Not everything has to be so serious. I'm playing along cuz I'm bored.
Execution of evildoers is sanctioned by Scripture. The death penalty was God's requirement for many sins and crimes.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
What assumption makes you think He did not approve? God often told Israel to slay all the heathen of nations they captured. God destrpyed all life except for 8 in the flood and killed all peoples in Sodom and gommorah. Lets not even talk about all the killing god does in the tribulation period.
There is not a word of condemnation or even displeasure attributed ot God by these acts.
I think your questions are good ones marks.
I ask myself these; of all that is written in the OT about God ie, what he is recorded as saying, how he is understood by the writers, how am I to understand? .....particularly since I only have little idea of that world.
I believe and do this; I say, if Jesus is the final revelation of God as described in:-
Hebrews 1:1-3
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
and
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
The Hebrew people had certain fixed ideas about God some of which were questionable. Even the Prophets embraced these ideas and acted accordingly. God did not force their hand in their choices of expression and action.
At Jesus' baptism and again at the transfiguration God's voice proclaimed him to be the one we are to hear....in other words, Jesus was the one best qualified and able to present to the fallen race how God actually is; how he thinks and feels and behaves.
Jesus in his seminal presentation in Matthew 5 presents a picture of God and his Kingdom considerably different than how the Hebrews and for that matter 'Christians' have long assumed.
So you don't need to shuffle through your Bible if you are enthusiastic enough, here it is:-
Matthew 5
....continued
1Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them.
He said:
3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister bc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ f 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. g
Eye for Eye
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
....continued
He said:
3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14“You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
The Fulfillment of the Law
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister bc will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ d is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ e 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ f 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. g
Eye for Eye
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
....continued
....of the many things said here I have highlighted verses 39 and 44.....and of other verses, consider the highlighted word 'but' which effectually is a game changer.
I would also like to add to this Paul's description of what love consists of in 1 Corinthians 13....particularly vs 4-5 copied below,
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
So, to answer your question 'Were you assuming God disapproved?' yes, I am assuming this and I think so correctly in the light of the revelation of Jesus....his own words and behaviour.
Let me add; the prophets were men of their times with many of the limitations that went with that. Jesus however, directly from the Father, puts matters into a perspective that shifts the age long perception of God ie, a vindictive punishing God who requires appeasing through blood and laws.
Attempting to hold both views of God ie, that of the Hebrews and many Christians over against that which Jesus presented effectually amounts to cognitive dissonance.
Ultimately, it is high time we reconsidered!
I would also like to add to this Paul's description of what love consists of in 1 Corinthians 13....particularly vs 4-5 copied below,
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
So, to answer your question 'Were you assuming God disapproved?' yes, I am assuming this and I think so correctly in the light of the revelation of Jesus....his own words and behaviour.
Let me add; the prophets were men of their times with many of the limitations that went with that. Jesus however, directly from the Father, puts matters into a perspective that shifts the age long perception of God ie, a vindictive punishing God who requires appeasing through blood and laws.
Attempting to hold both views of God ie, that of the Hebrews and many Christians over against that which Jesus presented effectually amounts to cognitive dissonance.
Ultimately, it is high time we reconsidered!
I couldn't read through all that, I'm sorry. But I guess a lot of people assume things then, and you do too.
Didn't God tell them to utterly wipe out the inhabitants of the land? And Amelek? For instance? Did God tell them to do what God disapproved of? I'd assume not.
What did God say to do to false prophets? I seem to remember something about not letting them live.
Here it is . . .
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 KJV
1) If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2) And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3) Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4) Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5) And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
So then those prophets Elijah slaughtered . . . were they turning Israel towards the True God, or a false god, would you say? And if a false God, then I'd have to conclude that God did in fact approve.
You could call it my assumption, but I'd just point to God's command, Elijah's obedience, and leave it at that.
Much love!
If you're interested and want to understand, application is required....that's a given!
If you want to hear my answer (which is not that protracted) you will need to read it.
Secondly, I'm assuming you do not want to pit scripture against scripture....soooo, how are we to understand what appears as contradictory?
third option....we can pull the lazy card, put our heads in the sand, cherry pick, crawl into our favourite corner and rattle off any narrative that suits our fancy.....a position not unfamiliar on these boards.
Third option, ridicule someone who disagrees?
Did not God command killing the false prophet that led Israel away from God? Did not Elijah keep that command in killing the 450 prophets of Ba'al?
I see obedience to God's command. I don't see this as making some assumption that Elijah was approved by God. God Himself said to do it.
How exactly does three pages of typing change that?
Where it the contradiction? God tells His people to destroy those who are destroying His people. I don't see a contradiction.
Much love!
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