What sort of assumption makes one think.......

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marks

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If you want to hear my answer (which is not that protracted) you will need to read it.
I went back to look over what you wrote again, I realized mostly you had posted Scripture, with some commentary, so I looked more closely. I think that God's rules for man don't neccesarily match what God does of Himself. We are told to give to others, for instance, but God does not always give. Sometimes people starve to death. If I do it, it is wrong to not feed them if I can, but God allows them to starve. His ways are not our ways.

And I think, for instance, when God strikes someone dead - think Elijah on a hilltop, "If I be a man of God . . .", God sent that fire that killed the captain and his 50. And it wasn't wrong for Him to do that. When the disciples asked if they should call fire down, Jesus told them, You don't know of what spirit you are.

There is a time and a place, and it's not up to you or I to choose, but for God. And God did in fact choose for these things to be done. The captain and his 50. The slaughter of Amelek. The slaughter of the priests of Ba'al. And even David his 10,000's. God's command was to destroy the inhabitants of the land, to possess it for themselves.

I don't see assumptions, and I don't see contradictions, but that's just me.

Much love!
 

quietthinker

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Third option, ridicule someone who disagrees?
Not at all...it's an option.....you don't think it's valid?

Did not God command killing the false prophet that led Israel away from God? Did not Elijah keep that command in killing the 450 prophets of Ba'al?
could you show me where God commanded Elijah to slay the Prophets of Baal?

How exactly does three pages of typing change that?
if you haven't read it how can you possibly assess it?

Where it the contradiction? God tells His people to destroy those who are destroying His people. I don't see a contradiction.

This is what the Prophets thought they heard.
It's is a contradiction in that it is opposed to Jesus' point of view.....but if you haven't read what I've already explained (according to your own admission) we have a communication breakdown.
 

quietthinker

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I went back to look over what you wrote again, I realized mostly you had posted Scripture, with some commentary, so I looked more closely. I think that God's rules for man don't neccesarily match what God does of Himself. We are told to give to others, for instance, but God does not always give. Sometimes people starve to death. If I do it, it is wrong to not feed them if I can, but God allows them to starve. His ways are not our ways.
Thank you.
People starve not because God wants them to starve but because of other factors. According to the intro of the book of Job and the witness of Jesus, there is an evil force who kills and destroys and who cleverly disquises himself and makes it appear God is responsible.
And I think, for instance, when God strikes someone dead - think Elijah on a hilltop, "If I be a man of God . . .", God sent that fire that killed the captain and his 50. And it wasn't wrong for Him to do that. When the disciples asked if they should call fire down, Jesus told them, You don't know of what spirit you are.

There is a time and a place, and it's not up to you or I to choose, but for God. And God did in fact choose for these things to be done. The captain and his 50. The slaughter of Amelek. The slaughter of the priests of Ba'al. And even David his 10,000's. God's command was to destroy the inhabitants of the land, to possess it for themselves.

I don't see assumptions, and I don't see contradictions, but that's just me.
The assumption is that God sent the fire. The disciples also figured this was an appropriate approach in this account of Luke 9:51-56. Jesus clarified!
51And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
 

Stumpmaster

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It seems that God approved of that!
Much love!
Of course. Still does in my sector.
God's equipping of whomever with supernatural powers and the mandate to use them is a lesson in itself.

Elijah had good reason to prove the superiority of God given the scenario.

Believer's Bible Commentary 2 Kings 1:2 King Ahaziah fell through the lattice on the roof of his palace in Samaria and was seriously injured. Instead of appealing to the Lord for healing, he sent messengers to Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if he would recover. Whitcomb identifies the pagan god as follows:
The real name of this Syrian deity was Baal-zebul ('Lord of life'), but the Jews called him Baal-zebub ('Lord of flies') in derision. By the time of Christ, this deity had become a symbol of Satan.
It is pathetic that a king whose name means "whom Jehovah sustains" should turn to Baal for healing!
 
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Philip James

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ie, a vindictive punishing God who requires appeasing through blood and laws.

.

Hi quietthinker,

I would think such a view of God is a terrible theological position, and one not supported by any good Christian or Jewish scholar.

Of course it is this terrible (and frankly insulting) view of God that leads to the penal substituion theory of the Atonement of Christ's Blood.. that the Father had to pour out His wrath on the Son...

Rather, it was Jesus' perfect obedience to the Father's will that MERITS for us eternal life.. BY His self-sacrifice redeeming the whole world!

Pax et Bonum!
 

Brakelite

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May I suggest that the very exact same assumptions being made here regarding the vindictive and destructive nature of God not only was the basis for the persecutions of millions of Christians during the dark ages on both sides of the Protestant/Catholic divide, but will continue to be the falsely assumed justification for the following...
KJV Revelation 13:15-17
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In other words, those in the very near future who will be responsible for the attempted extermination of the remnant who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 12:17;14:12). will think they doeth God service. John16:2. After all, they are worshipping the image of the beast, and sincerely believe they are a human expression of the nature of the god they serve (the dragon), by killing those who are by nature a human expression of the God they serve. See Romans 8:29.
It is no coincidence that so many Christians today are willingly and keenly laying hold of arms and weapons in order to defend their religion against those they see as enemies, and supporting political parties that promise them the power and freedom to do so.
How we see God, and how we understand who He is, affects directly who we become in our looking to Him as our example. In the future, the entire world will see God as most here see him and will be copying that false impression by murdering the righteous.
KJV Revelation 13:13
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.
 

Brakelite

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We could look to Elijah and say, look at how he was so righteous and zealous for God that he killed God's and Israel's enemies. Or, we could look at Elisha who had a double portion of the Spirit of Elijah and remember how he provided for the widow to be fed, how he raised the woman's son, healed Namaan, and...
KJV 2 Kings 6:13-23
13 And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.
14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
19 And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.
20 And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria.
21 And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them?
22 And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.
23 And he prepared great provision for them: and when they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went to their master. So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel.

Who is it that more accurately knew His God? Elijah, or Elisha?
 
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Hidden In Him

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Eye for Eye

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ h 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
So, to answer your question 'Were you assuming God disapproved?' yes, I am assuming this and I think so correctly in the light of the revelation of Jesus....his own words and behaviour.

Let me add; the prophets were men of their times with many of the limitations that went with that. Jesus however, directly from the Father, puts matters into a perspective that shifts the age long perception of God ie, a vindictive punishing God who requires appeasing through blood and laws.

You are making some cardinal errors here, Quiet. It was the same God who commanded the Jews to exterminate villages who manifested Himself through the Son Jesus to give His life a propitiation for the sins of mankind. This is actually the Gnostic error, btw, and a dangerous one, so it's not really a light matter I'm afraid.

Your first mistake is in not accounting for the fact that until the advent of Christ, the True God had to keep the Jewish race not only alive but dedicated to Himself. If not, there would have been no Jewish people through whom the Son of God could come through the line of David, in accordance with prophecy. ONCE that was fulfilled and the Son of God was born, it became an entirely new ballgame. The temple was about to be torn down, the sacrifices brought to an end, the Jews scattered throughout the world, and the gospel opened to and preached to the Gentiles. The preservation of Israel as a nation had now become superfluous and unnecessary, at least until the end of days when they would be gathered together and become a nation again in preparation for the fulfillment of all things. I realize much of that is opposed to your eschatology, but what shouldn't be at the very least is an understanding that what the Lord commanded His own to do during Old Testament times and what He commanded them to do during the New Testament were two different things because of two different sets of circumstances.

But your position is directly confronted by passages like the following, where it was not simply the Israelites who took it upon themselves to annihilate foreign nations, or the prophets who were a product of the thinking of their times, but the Lord Himself who commanded them to do so.

16 But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction,1 the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded (Deuteronomy 20:16–17)
 
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Hidden In Him

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Let me add; the prophets were men of their times with many of the limitations that went with that. Jesus however, directly from the Father, puts matters into a perspective that shifts the age long perception of God ie, a vindictive punishing God who requires appeasing through blood and laws.


To follow up, the perception that God was vindictive is a mischaracature of His motives. Regarding His command to exterminate pagan towns, David, who was himself a prophet, criticized the Jews for not doing, and explained why God commanded they were supposed to in one of the psalms. It was not because He was vindictive, but because He knew what would happen if they didn't:

34 They did not destroy the peoples concerning whom the Lord had commanded them, 35 but they mingled with the Gentiles, and learned their works; 36 They served their idols, which became a snare to them. 37 They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, and played the harlot by their own deeds. 40 Therefore the wrath of the Lord was kindled against His people, so that He abhorred His own inheritance. 41 And He gave them into the hand of the Gentiles, and those who hated them ruled over them. 42 Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. 43 Many times He delivered them, but they rebelled in their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. (Psalm 106:34-43)
 

quietthinker

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Your first mistake is in not accounting for the fact that until the advent of Christ, the True God had to keep the Jewish race not only alive but dedicated to Himself. If not, there would have been no Jewish people through whom the Son of God could come through the line of David, in accordance with prophecy.
Jesus answered them saying, if these should hold their peace the very stones would cry out. I'm certain you know the situation where that quote came from.
God does not require the machinations nor the logic of man. God creates out of nothing, a concept which is beyond how man can rationalise.
He impregnated Mary.....go and tell that to those around Mary!
He enabled Sarah's womb to conceive even though her uterus at 90yrs of age was akin to a shrivelled walnut.
He spoke and the world was created.
Jesus raised the dead....even raised himself from the dead. Are we going to apply human logic to this??
We could go on....he parted the Red Sea and sent Manna from heaven for 40 yrs etc etc....none of which has anything to do with human rational or logic. He will raise his people from the dead from all ages at the appointed time and bestow on their resurrected bodies immortality....an action that no man has any say in.
 

quietthinker

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To follow up, the perception that God was vindictive is a mischaracature of His motives. Regarding His command to exterminate pagan towns, David, who was himself a prophet, criticized the Jews for not doing, and explained why God commanded they were supposed to in one of the psalms. It was not because He was vindictive, but because He knew what would happen if they didn't:
You haven't understood what I'm trying to communicate HIM.
The OT writers assumed both good and evil originated with God....even modern Jews hold this position....they wrote from that perspective. ...it was in error.
It was Jesus who enlightened us to the fact that an evil player behind the scenes is causing the havoc, the death and the confusion and has so manipulated the mind of man as to have him believe it is God who is responsible.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Jesus answered them saying, if these should hold their peace the very stones would cry out. I'm certain you know the situation where that quote came from.
God does not require the machinations nor the logic of man. God creates out of nothing, a concept which is beyond how man can rationalise.
He impregnated Mary.....go and tell that to those around Mary!
He enabled Sarah's womb to conceive even though her uterus at 90yrs of age was akin to a shrivelled walnut.
He spoke and the world was created.
Jesus raised the dead....even raised himself from the dead. Are we going to apply human logic to this??
We could go on....he parted the Red Sea and sent Manna from heaven for 40 yrs etc etc....none of which has anything to do with human rational or logic. He will raise his people from the dead from all ages at the appointed time and bestow on their resurrected bodies immortality....an action that no man has any say in.

Well I agree, but once God has promised something in His word regarding the coming of the Messiah through a particular line, He is pinned to that promise. As the scriptures say, "Let God be true and every man a liar." That's why I mentioned the line of David.
You haven't understood what I'm trying to communicate HIM.
The OT writers assumed both good and evil originated with God....even modern Jews hold this position....they wrote from that perspective. ...it was in error.

I recall you saying something about this, but I'd have to revisit it to remember fully what you were saying, i.e. in what sense they taught that God created both good and evil. And then a distinction would have to be made between misconceptions held by some Jews and the views held by devout Jews, which sounds like a lengthy discussion.
It was Jesus who enlightened us to the fact that an evil player behind the scenes is causing the havoc, the death and the confusion and has so manipulated the mind of man as to have him believe it is God who is responsible.

I'd still have a hard time accepting that the Jews were not aware of this before Christ's time. The book of Job lays out quite clearly that Satan was the one behind the evil designs that sometimes came upon the righteous, and that while God sometimes allowed it, He was working a greater good for those who loved Him. I think they were already enlightened to the fact that ultimately Satan was behind things.
 

Windmillcharge

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hmmmm, so it is assumed!
Would you allow the possibility of another angle or have you settled for the assumption?

I believe what the bible teaches.
If someone wants to demonstrate there is another valid view I'll consider the evidence, but my bias is to believe the bile.
Do you know what your bias is?
 

quietthinker

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I believe what the bible teaches.
If someone wants to demonstrate there is another valid view I'll consider the evidence, but my bias is to believe the bile.
Do you know what your bias is?
There are many divergent views....all claim to believe the bible.
Unless one is open to truth at any cost, even if it means abandoning ones favourite views, one remains trapped.
 

quietthinker

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I would think such a view of God is a terrible theological position, and one not supported by any good Christian or Jewish scholar.
It is indeed a terrible theological position Phillip and 'good Christian or Jewish scholar' is open to interpretation.
Each of us stands solitary when it comes to understanding truth or error.
 

quietthinker

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Well I agree, but once God has promised something in His word regarding the coming of the Messiah through a particular line, He is pinned to that promise. As the scriptures say, "Let God be true and every man a liar." That's why I mentioned the line of David.


I recall you saying something about this, but I'd have to revisit it to remember fully what you were saying, i.e. in what sense they taught that God created both good and evil. And then a distinction would have to be made between misconceptions held by some Jews and the views held by devout Jews, which sounds like a lengthy discussion.


I'd still have a hard time accepting that the Jews were not aware of this before Christ's time. The book of Job lays out quite clearly that Satan was the one behind the evil designs that sometimes came upon the righteous, and that while God sometimes allowed it, He was working a greater good for those who loved Him. I think they were already enlightened to the fact that ultimately Satan was behind things.
Addressing your third reply:- stylistically the first couple of chapters of Job are somewhat different to the rest of the book suggesting it was added at a later time.

Shattan as the Jews know Satan is/was understood to have the role of a prosecutor subsequently they held the view that both good and evil proceeded from God. They clearly admitted God has a dark side. They did not see him as the evil being that Jesus has brought to our attention