The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

brightfame52 said:

You still sound confused friend, Im laying out the truth here in this thread.

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Your arguments don't address your objection. I'm not saying that the doctrine of the salvation of the elect is untrue. It is. Even so, the Bible ALSO teaches that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. This is the truth that you miss.

charity said:

* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

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This is additional about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:
One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

brightfame52 said:

I speak the truth, regardless of what you say.

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Okay. I understand. I entered this discussion on a false premise then. You led me to believe the topic was the atonement. Did I misunderstand you?

@brightfame52 said:-
God in His foreknowledge determined who should believe.

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@Charity said:-
I would ask you to seriously consider the implication of what you are saying, and not ascribe unto God something so grossly contrary to His nature.

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@brightfame said-
I know what I'm saying, been testifying to it for decades.

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Hello @brightfame52,

I am very sorry to hear that, for the conclusion you have reached is vile. You are effectively saying that God determines who will be lost for eternity: that for them there is no opportunity given for salvation. That would mean that God is not just.

Scripture is clear that God is both Just, and the Justifier of those who come unto Him for salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what should be made known to mankind.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Kermos said:

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

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Hello @Kermos,

In John 14, the Lord was talking to those who were His.

The thread subject heading asks the question, 'Did Christ die for all men without exception?' I believe that God, who is just, gives all men the opportunity to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ: though He, having foreknowledge, knows beforehand those who will believe.

Yes, God gave the Holy Spirit to the believing Jew at Pentecost, and to the believing Gentile at Acts 10, thus showing to His People Israel that He is no respecter of persons.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

Hello @Kermos,

In John 14, the Lord was talking to those who were His.

The thread subject heading asks the question, 'Did Christ die for all men without exception?' I believe that God, who is just, gives all men the opportunity to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ: though He, having foreknowledge, knows beforehand those who will believe.

Yes, God gave the Holy Spirit to the believing Jew at Pentecost, and to the believing Gentile at Acts 10, thus showing to His People Israel that He is no respecter of persons.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Hello Chris, just a simple thought and question.
From the beginning God did gave all men the opportunity to be saved, at least until Christ.

And what happened?

Tong
R4743

charity said:

Hello Kermos,

See reply #2280, and your responses.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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That does not explain why you focused in on John 14:6.

charity said:

Hello brightfame52,

I would ask you to seriously consider the implication of what you are saying, and not ascribe unto God something so grossly contrary to His nature.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) says Jesus the Lord.

So "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is absolutely "the work of God", not man, but truly believing on Jesus is "the work of God".

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10) wrote the Apostle Paul, so Paul is in accord with the Lord (John 6:29).

So "faith"/belief is absolutely "not of yourselves" moreover "saved"/salvation is "not as a result of works" of a choice by man yet truly "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus".

Unrighteous belief, that is, a person claiming to control the person's belief in the Son, is the act of man unto damnation.

Righteous belief, that is, God controlling a person to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent, is the exclusive act of God in man unto Salvation.

Salvation is reserved by God to persons whom God chooses to cause to believe on Lord Jesus Christ.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

charity said:

Hello Kermos,

In John 14, the Lord was talking to those who were His.

The thread subject heading asks the question, 'Did Christ die for all men without exception?' I believe that God, who is just, gives all men the opportunity to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ: though He, having foreknowledge, knows beforehand those who will believe.

Yes, God gave the Holy Spirit to the believing Jew at Pentecost, and to the believing Gentile at Acts 10, thus showing to His People Israel that He is no respecter of persons.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Because the Word of God says "you" in the passage of "He will give you another Helper" (John 14:16) and after the Living Water says this "you" Gentiles received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44), so when Lord Jesus says "you" during the supper recorded in John chapters 14 to 17 such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), then Glorious King Jesus says these marvelous sayings to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time just as this post in this thread shows.

Here are a couple of pertinent facts the Word of God evinces:

• Christ bought only His own chosen disciples by His Blood because He died on the cross only for His own chosen disciples - He does not lose a single one of His own chosen disciples.
• you @charity did not choose Jesus Christ, and you cannot choose Jesus Christ because He says so (John 15:16) - free will is deception.

brightfame52 said:

Thats the Church, the Sheep.

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10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2
I could be wrong, but I don't think that the church is raised up to suffer shame and everlasting contempt.

Jesus paid the price to redeem creation or there wouldn't be much point to this:
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16
He paid the price and He is made the judge of the living and the dead, so it's really up to Him, not you, me, or anyone else.

Kermos said:

Because the Word of God says "you" in the passage of "He will give you another Helper" (John 14:16) and after the Living Water says this "you" Gentiles received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44), so when Lord Jesus says "you" during the supper recorded in John chapters 14 to 17 such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), then Glorious King Jesus says these marvelous sayings to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time just as this post in this thread shows.

Here are a couple of pertinent facts the Word of God evinces:

• Christ bought only His own chosen disciples by His Blood because He died on the cross only for His own chosen disciples - He does not lose a single one of His own chosen disciples.
• you @charity did not choose Jesus Christ, and you cannot choose Jesus Christ because He says so (John 15:16) - free will is deception.

​

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Jesus didn't buy disciples.

while it is still a free country, I'll state my belief that Christ died for all who will come.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9
"…15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd." - John 10:16
" 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." - Ephesians 1:4-6
I believe He knew beforehand who would come. He's smart like that, eh?

brightfame52 said:

Maybe you should have understood it by the title I gave the thread ?

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Here is the bottom line. You are attempting to argue for the doctrine of limited atonement based on a faulty premise. Your argument goes something like this: The purpose of the death of Christ was to make reparations for sin. The death of Christ is efficacious for the elect without fail. The death of Christ is limited in purpose and scope to the elect. Therefore, Christ did not die for everyone without exception.

Your argument erroneously assumes that the purpose of the cross was the expiation of sins. This is not Biblical. Paul tells us that the purpose of the cross was reconciliation, not reparations for sin.