What sort of assumption makes one think.......

Hidden In Him · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
Addressing your third reply:- stylistically the first couple of chapters of Job are somewhat different to the rest of the book suggesting it was added at a later time.

Shattan as the Jews know Satan is/was understood to have the role of a prosecutor subsequently they held the view that both good and evil proceeded from God. They clearly admitted God has a dark side. They did not see him as the evil being that Jesus has brought to our attention

Well again, just as there are different views among Christians today, I think there were different views back then. They couldn't agree on resurrection of the dead, hence the Sadducees. They couldn't agree on the proper calendar, hence the Essenes. To assign the beliefs of one particular sect to all of Judaism in general would be a mistake IMO. Moreover, you have the added problem that this is the word of God we are discussing, preserved for us to this day as such, which records that Satan seduced Eve in the garden; that Satan tempted David to take a census of Israel; that Satan came before the Lord concerning His servant Job. If they had been corrupt yet were maintained all this time in the word without being removed, we have a God who is rather nonchalant about what He allows to continue being considered scripture or not.

In the end, your argument poses too many problems for me. But I appreciate the polite replies.

Blessings,
- H

marks · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
The assumption is that God sent the fire.

I see. OK.

Much love!

Wrangler · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
The OT writers assumed both good and evil originated with God

There you go again with that abuse of the term assumption. That good and bad originate with God is His revealed word. I find it odd that anyone can, not only God against explicit Scripture, but logically separate the First Cause with one and all things that come after that. I suppose rationalization knows no bounds when it comes to apologizing for ones doctrine.

I form light and create darkness;
I make what is good, happy, and healthy, and I create woe.
I, the Eternal One, make them one and all.
Isaiah 45:7 (The Voice)

marks · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
Attempting to hold both views of God ie, that of the Hebrews and many Christians over against that which Jesus presented effectually amounts to cognitive dissonance.

Ultimately, it is high time we reconsidered!

Simple answer . . . God does both of these. He brings to life, and He kills. And that He uses human agents in some of that killing is a matter of Biblical record. David. Jehu. Elijah. This list gets longer. Prophets who spoke and directed men to kill other men and women. The lion who killed the man of God in the way.

Are you thinking God will not judge His creation, as He has said He will? Do you not think maybe He's been doing some of the judging in what we've read in the Bible?

Much love!

marks · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
could you show me where God commanded Elijah to slay the Prophets of Baal?

Elijah was keeping the Law, from that place I quoted. I think it's somewhere else too, but one will do it. Should Elijah have merely ignored that part of the commandment?

What of Phineas? Should he have just let them go at it?

Much love!

marks · Oct 20, 2021

Noah was one of only 8 people saved from death when God sent the floodwaters, killing all the rest. What should we assume from that?

Much love!

Taken · Oct 20, 2021

What sort of assumption makes one think.......
OP ^

Strange OP...

quietthinker · Oct 20, 2021

marks said:
Simple answer . . . God does both of these. He brings to life, and He kills. And that He uses human agents in some of that killing is a matter of Biblical record. David. Jehu. Elijah. This list gets longer. Prophets who spoke and directed men to kill other men and women. The lion who killed the man of God in the way.

Are you thinking God will not judge His creation, as He has said He will? Do you not think maybe He's been doing some of the judging in what we've read in the Bible?

Much love!

Do I read you to mean God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son ....that those who don't believe it will be killed by him?
The problem of this view is inherent.

marks · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
Do I read you to mean God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son ....that those who don't believe it will be killed by him?
The problem of this view is inherent.

Do you mean intrinsic?

Those who don't believe are dead already.

Just the same . . . the law commanded killing the false prophets that led Israel away from God. Elijah killed the false prophets that were leading Israel away from God. I don't have a problem with reading the Bible exactly as written.

God told people to kill others at times, and God killed untold numbers of people Himself. It's just what the Bible says.

Much love!

quietthinker · Oct 20, 2021

marks said:
Do you mean intrinsic?

Those who don't believe are dead already.

Just the same . . . the law commanded killing the false prophets that led Israel away from God. Elijah killed the false prophets that were leading Israel away from God. I don't have a problem with reading the Bible exactly as written.

God told people to kill others at times, and God killed untold numbers of people Himself. It's just what the Bible says.

Much love!

This view is common but inconsistent with a God who chooses to give his own life for fallen man. Unless we can recognise the inconsistency it is not possible for a solution to be found.....however, there is a solution for those fearless in scrutiny.

ps....re your question re intrinsic. In the context I'm not sure what you're asking.

Wrangler · Oct 20, 2021

quietthinker said:
This view is common but inconsistent with a God who chooses to give his own life for fallen man. Unless we can recognise the inconsistency it is not possible for a solution to be found

Wow! God most certainly did NOT give his own life for fallen man. No inconsistency.

Scripture is explicit in Acts 17:31 that God raised Jesus from the dead, that God is unchanging and no one has seen God because God is Spirit. Jesus is flesh, man.

I honestly have no idea what your premise is for this thread. For instance, how this post connects to the OP or the title of the thread. It’s like a collection of random ideas:

What’s the assumption?
Is killing prohibited by God?
God cannot be in favor of killing since he gave his life.

The last is more of an assertion - out of nowhere. I have no idea where you are headed. Do you have a roulette wheel used to copy and paste random expressions.

I got one: Don’t put new wine in old wine skins. Meditate on that.

quietthinker · Oct 21, 2021

Wrangler said:
What’s the assumption?

That God condones/approves of man killing man and God killing man

Wrangler said:
Is killing prohibited by God?

Thou shalt not kill....6th Commandment

Wrangler said:
God cannot be in favor of killing since he gave his life.

If God were into killing he would have made a swift end to Lucifer at the outset of his rebellion. Don't you think that would have saved much heartache and grief in every area of human history not to mention the pain it has inflicted on the heart of God. So why didn't he??
....and you think these are random expressions and cannot see how they fit into the Controversy that Earth is embroiled in ??? I am absolutely surprised that you should make this comment as one claiming to be a Christian!

further....my comment on God giving his life. Was Jesus not the creator of all that exists....was he not God?

Curtis · Oct 21, 2021

quietthinker said:
God approved of Elijah slaying 400 priests of Baal or David slaying his thousands?

Read the Old Testament and observe how many times God sent Israel out to destroy evil cities and kill everyone in them.

Do you think God disproved of His own actions?

Elijah called down fire from heaven to destroy those Baal priests, but where do you think that fire from heaven came from? God.

Now read prophecy and see how many Jesus kills with flaming fire and a sword of vengeance:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Do you think God will approve of Jesus? Oh, wait, He IS God.

Curtis · Oct 21, 2021

Wrangler said:
Scripture is explicit in Acts 17:31 that God raised Jesus from the dead, that God is unchanging and no one has seen God because God is Spirit. Jesus is flesh, man.

No one ha# seen God the father at any time but Jesus has revealed Him, says that scripture.

How did Jesus reveal Him? Because He who has seen Jesus HAS SEEN THE FATHER.

God the word, men HAVE SEEN.

Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Curtis · Oct 21, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
the Lord Jesus destroying Jerusalem

Jesus did not destroy Jerusalem, Rome did - Jesus just prophesied it.

Jesus in fact saves Jerusalem from destruction when He comes again, in Zechariah 14:5.

Curtis · Oct 21, 2021

marks said:
It seems that God approved of that!

Much love!

He must have. Elijah asked for fire from heaven, and God sent it.

Obviously if He didn’t approve it, He wouldn’t have sent the fire down.

quietthinker · Oct 21, 2021

Curtis said:
Read the Old Testament and observe how many times God sent Israel out to destroy evil cities and kill everyone in them.

Do you think God disproved of His own actions?

Elijah called down fire from heaven to destroy those Baal priests, but where do you think that fire from heaven came from? God.

Now read prophecy and see how many Jesus kills with flaming fire and a sword of vengeance:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Do you think God will approve of Jesus? Oh, wait, He IS God.

Job and his friends thought it was God afflicting Job. We know what Job and his friends didn't. We know it was Satan.
Jesus tells us the Devil is come to kill and steal and destroy, that he is a liar and the Father of lies....Satan is the destroyer not God.

Can we really believe that the God who allows conception in the womb of a Cannanite woman the same as he does in the womb of a Hebrew woman, who allows it to come full term, who gives life to the children of both women to run and jump and play....can and would this same God approve of one killing the other.......does the same God sanction genocide?

If your God is a killer you can be assured that it is not the God of Jesus and you have bought the lie that God is not what he claims to be ie, a God of love nor is it the God John speaks of as having no darkness at all. Who do you think put forward the idea that God is selfish and if you don't do it his way he'll zap you??

You assume that when Jesus returns it is God who is doing the killing but when I read the account of the wicked calling for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them in Revelation 6:16 it sounds more like mass suicide.

Yes Jesus is surrounded by flaming fire at his return but it doesn't burn his saints...how is that? Could it be that anything out of harmony with God cannot abide his presence? Even the glowing face of Moses when he came down off the mountain freaked the people out.
The problem isn't God's, the problem is with the wicked just as it was with Adam and Eve....they hid, they thought their only best friend had it in for them when in fact God came looking for them. He did not have revenge in mind but the opposite yet they ran from his presence.

When Jesus finally presents himself again at his return the wicked will do the same because they will not believe that God can forgive them. Isn't the narrative Satan wants people to embrace one of fear towards God.....fear that all he wants to do is judge them negatively?

When we read the accounts of the life of Jesus and how he acted towards those clearly guilty; did he stand towards them in judgement like the religious guys did?? To the woman caught in the cot with her lover (by the way, she was probably set up seeing they didn't pull the man in....it might even have been one of their own just like they set Jesus up in the early hours of the morning with false witnesses) Jesus says, neither do I condemn you.

There are many accounts of this nature or do you dismiss them in favour of a God who is just itching to whip ar.se?
I surely seems like it to me!

marks · Oct 21, 2021

Curtis said:
He must have. Elijah asked for fire from heaven, and God sent it.

Obviously if He didn’t approve it, He wouldn’t have sent the fire down.

I'm thinking @quietthinker 's point is that we are just assuming that God sent the fire, and really it was the devil.

Do I have that right?

Much love!

marks · Oct 21, 2021

quietthinker said:
Can we really believe that the God who allows conception in the womb of a Cannanite woman the same as he does in the womb of a Hebrew woman, who allows it to come full term, who gives life to the children of both women to run and jump and play....can and would this same God approve of one killing the other.......does the same God sanction genocide?

Again, isn't this a matter of record, that God not only sanctioned genocide, He commanded it? Do I really need to assemble and post those passages?

What "I can really believe" seems to be different from what "you can really believe".

Do you know the slaughter of babies can be a mercy at times?

Much love!

marks · Oct 21, 2021

quietthinker said:
If your God is a killer you can be assured that it is not the God of Jesus and you have bought the lie that God is not what he claims to be ie, a God of love nor is it the God John speaks of as having no darkness at all. Who do you think put forward the idea that God is selfish and if you don't do it his way he'll zap you??

You then are Universalist?

Much love!

What sort of assumption makes one think.......

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