When presented with the options of choice, any thoughts on what they think the consequences will be for the choice that they make?
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When presented with the options of choice, any thoughts on what they think the consequences will be for the choice that they make?
The idea of eternal punishment is unpopular and frightening, but it is a part of the confession of every branch of the Christian church. It has only been in the last century that some have denied the reality of hell. Time was that sermons on the subject were along the lines of, “Man is very bad and God is really mad” (Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God, Jonathan Edwards, 1741). In those days there was revival, and the church was strong and influential. Then in the nineteenth century, it was decided that “man is not so bad, and God surely is not mad.” More on this in a moment, but first:
Virtually every statement in the Bible concerning hell comes from the lips of Jesus Christ. We cannot take Jesus seriously without also taking seriously what He said regarding everlasting punishment. It is almost as if God decided that a teaching this awful would not be received from any lesser authority than that of His own Son. At any rate, just as we have the fullest revelation of salvation in Jesus Christ, so also we have the fullest revelation of damnation from Him personally.
Jesus chose the most dreadful images in creation to describe the reality of hell. One is the image of darkness, which emphasizes separation from God and total removal of His grace as a result of His final, permanent judgment and condemnation. Another is that of fire, or a lake of fire. Fire, over and over again throughout the Bible, even when literal, indicates the presence of God in judgment. God Himself is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy, Hebrews 12:29). The lake of fire is certainly a symbol pointing to (a "type" of) a reality far, far worse -- total immersion in God's unrelenting judgment and condemnation. The reality, which we cannot really imagine, if far worse than the symbol, which only assists us in realizing that truth.
It is difficult, even as Christians, to accept the reality of hell -- even those of us who do accept it. I think that's because we are not consumed with the righteousness and holiness of God, and we are still bound up by much unresolved inner guilt. But it is what it is.
Back to what I said above, It is telling -- or should be -- that this stream of thought ("there is no such thing as hell," or even annihilationism) only emerged 1800 years after Jesus walked the earth and the Bible (or the rest of it, anyway, the New Testament) was written. The work of the Holy Spirit was not finished with His superintending the writing of the Bible; He has been at work in the hearts of men and women ever since then, preserving the integrity of God's Word. Hell is the same thing today as it ever was (and will be forever).
Someone above said:
I would point to the following:
Virtually every statement in the Bible concerning hell comes from the lips of Jesus Christ. We cannot take Jesus seriously without also taking seriously what He said regarding everlasting punishment. It is almost as if God decided that a teaching this awful would not be received from any lesser authority than that of His own Son. At any rate, just as we have the fullest revelation of salvation in Jesus Christ, so also we have the fullest revelation of damnation from Him personally.
Jesus chose the most dreadful images in creation to describe the reality of hell. One is the image of darkness, which emphasizes separation from God and total removal of His grace as a result of His final, permanent judgment and condemnation. Another is that of fire, or a lake of fire. Fire, over and over again throughout the Bible, even when literal, indicates the presence of God in judgment. God Himself is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy, Hebrews 12:29). The lake of fire is certainly a symbol pointing to (a "type" of) a reality far, far worse -- total immersion in God's unrelenting judgment and condemnation. The reality, which we cannot really imagine, if far worse than the symbol, which only assists us in realizing that truth.
It is difficult, even as Christians, to accept the reality of hell -- even those of us who do accept it. I think that's because we are not consumed with the righteousness and holiness of God, and we are still bound up by much unresolved inner guilt. But it is what it is.
Back to what I said above, It is telling -- or should be -- that this stream of thought ("there is no such thing as hell," or even annihilationism) only emerged 1800 years after Jesus walked the earth and the Bible (or the rest of it, anyway, the New Testament) was written. The work of the Holy Spirit was not finished with His superintending the writing of the Bible; He has been at work in the hearts of men and women ever since then, preserving the integrity of God's Word. Hell is the same thing today as it ever was (and will be forever).
Someone above said:
"Other than the devil and possibly the beast and false prophet - depending on which translation is being used - do you have any scripture which specifically says that folks are going to be tormented 24/7 for eternity?"
I would point to the following:
- “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven... (t)hen will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness' " (Matthew 7:21-23, emphasis mine; they depart, and they go obediently, destroyed not in the sense of annihilation but in that they are permanently condemned, ruined, and have no hope of redemption).
- "Then (the Son of Man, Jesus) will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:41-46, emphasis mine; same as above).
- "The rich man... being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us' " (Luke 16:19-31, emphasis mine; same as above).
- "...the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever... (t)his is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:7-15, emphasis mine; anyone whose name is not found in the book of life will follow the devil and his minions into this lake of fire and, along with him, will be in torment/anguish day and night forever).
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They don't believe in God so they don't believe in heaven or hell their choice is to not believe.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2
Does this count? I don't know how people who have no shame now will be able to feel it then, but it sounds a bit like torment to me and I know something of being treated with contempt.
Maybe, maybe not.
The verse only says that the contempt [for them] will be everlasting, not that the shame will be. They could feel ashamed up until the time they are cast into the lake of fire.
BTW, just as an aside, the verse says many of those who sleep shall awake. That seems to imply that there will be those who don't. Also, in order for someone to feel everlasting shame wouldn't they have to have everlasting life too?
Sorry, I misread your comment. I thought you were saying that the person made the choice to go to hell over the choice of
accepting the supreme being.
BTW, you wrote that you "don't believe God 'sends' anybody to hell".
Maybe not hell, but Revelation 20:15 does say that He will be casting some of them into the lake of fire.
Yes. Unless most of our Bibles are wrong.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Absolutely it counts. I meant to cite that one, too. Good catch.
Grace and peace to you.
God sent his Son so that nobody need go to hell. God doesn't send them there; if they end up there it's because they made the choice to reject him
The actual place is not the issue. Jesus was forsaken (abandoned) by the Father, not because Jesus had sinned, but that He had taken all our sin upon Himself for our sake, to accomplish our redemption. As we all would acknowledge, Jesus cried out to the Father while on the cross, saying, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?” So yes, He "descended into hell" in that He was forsaken (abandoned) by the Father.
Yes, there has to be somewhere people go to experience whatever it is they will actually experience there, and there will be a "life" to be lived there, but there will be no literal burning. Again, the fire of hell is the judgment of God and the eternal condemnation that the unrepentant person will exist in, or be "consumed" by, in the sense that God Himself is a "consuming fire" (Deuteronomy, Hebrews).
Grace and peace to you.
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Well, God sent His Son to accomplish the redemption of His elect, and that, Jesus surely did. What you say here is true, though, in the sense that Jesus's work on the cross was sufficient to achieve the redemption/salvation of all... which may actually be what you are saying.
Well, those that end up in hell do go there obediently, as Scripture shows. But they do not go willingly; no one, either now or then, will actually choose hell. I think you agree with that. And I agree that they did make the choice to reject God. But they are sent to hell. Jesus will say to those on His left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I agree with you concerning the cause, but they are indeed sent. It's a fearsome and terrible thing, but there will be no excuse, and God will execute His perfect justice.
Grace and peace to you.
Helen
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Have you ever checked out the “forever sand ever “ at the original root meaning.
it does NOT mean eternally.
Helen
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Yes= Gospel= the good news.
“Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
God did not start this thing in Eden to end up losing 95% of humanity.
GOD WINS!
So what do you think it means, Helen?
Well yes, God wins...
But I'm curious about your assertion of God's having "not start(ed) this thing in Eden to end up losing 95% of humanity." How do you reconcile that, then, with what Paul tells us in Romans 9 about God's purpose of election (though before anyone is yet born and thus done nothing yet either good or bad, so not not because of works but because of Him who calls; verse 11), particularly verses 22 through 24, where he poses the rhetorical question, "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory -- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
Grace and peace to you.
They are bearing the consequences of their sin in not accepting Jesus - I suppose as a last resort they have been 'sent' there.
Isaiah's passage on the judgment of Edom:
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is made overflowing with fatness,
With the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them,
And the young bulls with the mighty bulls;
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
And He shall stretch out over it
The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.
12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom,
But none shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing.
13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces,
Nettles and brambles in its fortresses;
It shall be a habitation of jackals,
A courtyard for ostriches.
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals,
And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion;
Also the night creature shall rest there,
And find for herself a place of rest.
15 There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay eggs
And hatch, and gather them under her shadow;
There also shall the hawks be gathered,
Every one with her mate. Isaiah 34:5-15
The judgment of those who receive the mark of the beast from the book of the Revelation :
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11
The judgment of Babylon the great from the book of the Revelation:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” Revelation 18:1-3
I can't be dogmatic about it, but these passages sound like parallel passages about the same events. It also sounds like both heaven and hell come to Earth at Christ's return with the condemned cast into outer darkness. This isn't about the final judgment, but the judgment between " the sheep and the goats (anathema Maranatha)".
None of these passages are particularly easy to understand, but I'm convinced that the unclean are those that are not cleansed by the blood of Christ. In context, Isaiah includes the heavenly host in the same judgment.
“For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is made overflowing with fatness,
With the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them,
And the young bulls with the mighty bulls;
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
11 But the pelican and the porcupine shall possess it,
Also the owl and the raven shall dwell in it.
And He shall stretch out over it
The line of confusion and the stones of emptiness.
12 They shall call its nobles to the kingdom,
But none shall be there, and all its princes shall be nothing.
13 And thorns shall come up in its palaces,
Nettles and brambles in its fortresses;
It shall be a habitation of jackals,
A courtyard for ostriches.
14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the jackals,
And the wild goat shall bleat to its companion;
Also the night creature shall rest there,
And find for herself a place of rest.
15 There the arrow snake shall make her nest and lay eggs
And hatch, and gather them under her shadow;
There also shall the hawks be gathered,
Every one with her mate. Isaiah 34:5-15
The judgment of those who receive the mark of the beast from the book of the Revelation :
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. Revelation 14:9-11
The judgment of Babylon the great from the book of the Revelation:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.” Revelation 18:1-3
I can't be dogmatic about it, but these passages sound like parallel passages about the same events. It also sounds like both heaven and hell come to Earth at Christ's return with the condemned cast into outer darkness. This isn't about the final judgment, but the judgment between " the sheep and the goats (anathema Maranatha)".
None of these passages are particularly easy to understand, but I'm convinced that the unclean are those that are not cleansed by the blood of Christ. In context, Isaiah includes the heavenly host in the same judgment.
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