We FORSAKE Jesus's teaching ??

dan p · Apr 20, 2011

Hi to all and in Acts 21:21 the Holy Spirit writes through Paul to FORSAKE Moses , Circumcision and Jewish customs .

Now in Heb 6:1 and 2 , Therefore , leaving ( FORSAKING ) the Discussion of the Elementary principles of CHRIST , let us go on to Perfection , not laying again the Foundation of Repentance from the Dead words and of Faith toward God .

Verse 2 , and ( LEAVING/FORSAKING ) of the Doctrine of Baptisms , of Laying on of Hands , of Resurrection of the Dead , and Eternal Judgment .

The word " LEAVING " is a Aorist partiiciple and can be translated " having left " the beginning word of the MESSIAH .. This " leaving " is not Permanent but Temporary .

The verb " to go on " is in the Subjunctive mood of Possibiltity , plural form , and can be translated " we should go on " to maturity or perfection .

What I am going to , is to forsake BAPTISMS that are to be Forsaken and these Baptisms involve WATER but there are more than one KIND of Baptism , about 12 different ones .

They are also mentioned in Heb 9:10 as " various washing " . It is the same Greek word in each verse , BAPTISMOS . This Greek word refers to washing and cleansing .

During the Lord's ministry to Israel , the Jews WASHED theirs Cups , Pots , Copper vessels , and beds and couches that they sat on at mealtime , Mark 7;4 , 8 .

They also WASHED their hands before eating , Luke 11:38 .

Jesus washed the Feet of His disciples , according to John 13:5-15 .

So , we see that there was more to the doctrine than John's Baptism of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins . All of this WASHING was a part of Judaism , not Christianity .

This verses means that Baptism is gone ! dan p

Butch5 · Apr 20, 2011

dan p said:
Hi to all and in Acts 21:21 the Holy Spirit writes through Paul to FORSAKE Moses , Circumcision and Jewish customs .

Now in Heb 6:1 and 2 , Therefore , leaving ( FORSAKING ) the Discussion of the Elementary principles of CHRIST , let us go on to Perfection , not laying again the Foundation of Repentance from the Dead words and of Faith toward God .

Verse 2 , and ( LEAVING/FORSAKING ) of the Doctrine of Baptisms , of Laying on of Hands , of Resurrection of the Dead , and Eternal Judgment .

The word " LEAVING " is a Aorist partiiciple and can be translated " having left " the beginning word of the MESSIAH .. This " leaving " is not Permanent but Temporary .

The verb " to go on " is in the Subjunctive mood of Possibiltity , plural form , and can be translated " we should go on " to maturity or perfection .

What I am going to , is to forsake BAPTISMS that are to be Forsaken and these Baptisms involve WATER but there are more than one KIND of Baptism , about 12 different ones .

They are also mentioned in Heb 9:10 as " various washing " . It is the same Greek word in each verse , BAPTISMOS . This Greek word refers to washing and cleansing .

During the Lord's ministry to Israel , the Jews WASHED theirs Cups , Pots , Copper vessels , and beds and couches that they sat on at mealtime , Mark 7;4 , 8 .

They also WASHED their hands before eating , Luke 11:38 .

Jesus washed the Feet of His disciples , according to John 13:5-15 .

So , we see that there was more to the doctrine than John's Baptism of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins . All of this WASHING was a part of Judaism , not Christianity .

This verses means that Baptism is gone ! dan p

Dan,

How do yo draw these conclusion's? He is not saying to forsake those things. The point is that they are immature, he is telling the they need to move on to maturity. In other words they need to move past the basics, which were, baptisms, the raising of the dead, repentance, and eternal life. Let me ask you a question Dan, Eternal life is also in that passage, are you going to forsake eternal life? The writer is just telling them leave those basic doctrines and advance in their knowledge and understanding to become mature Christians. That is the point of the rest of the book, he gives them the meat they need to move on to maturity.

dan p · Apr 20, 2011

Butch5 said:
Dan,

How do yo draw these conclusion's? He is not saying to forsake those things. The point is that they are immature, he is telling the they need to move on to maturity. In other words they need to move past the basics, which were, baptisms, the raising of the dead, repentance, and eternal life. Let me ask you a question Dan, Eternal life is also in that passage, are you going to forsake eternal life? The writer is just telling them leave those basic doctrines and advance in their knowledge and understanding to become mature Christians. That is the point of the rest of the book, he gives them the meat they need to move on to maturity.

Hi Butch5 , and does it not SAY , LEAVE /APHIEMI ( G 863 ) and it means Leaving , and can br translated " having left " and the " THEREFORE " of verse one points back to Heb 5:11-14 and describes the Law keepers , and referenced by verse 12 , and teach you the first principles of the written word of God , NEEDING mILK and not strong Meat . dan p

Butch5 · Apr 20, 2011

dan p said:
Hi Butch5 , and does it not SAY , LEAVE /APHIEMI ( G 863 ) and it means Leaving , and can br translated " having left " and the " THEREFORE " of verse one points back to Heb 5:11-14 and describes the Law keepers , and referenced by verse 12 , and teach you the first principles of the written word of God , NEEDING mILK and not strong Meat . dan p

Yeah, he's not telling them to forget about the doctrines, as in they are not valid anymore. He's telling them to move on, stop dwelling on the milk and move on to meat.

charlesj · Apr 20, 2011

dan p said:
Hi to all and in Acts 21:21 the Holy Spirit writes through Paul to FORSAKE Moses , Circumcision and Jewish customs .

Now in Heb 6:1 and 2 , Therefore , leaving ( FORSAKING ) the Discussion of the Elementary principles of CHRIST , let us go on to Perfection , not laying again the Foundation of Repentance from the Dead words and of Faith toward God .

Verse 2 , and ( LEAVING/FORSAKING ) of the Doctrine of Baptisms , of Laying on of Hands , of Resurrection of the Dead , and Eternal Judgment .

The word " LEAVING " is a Aorist partiiciple and can be translated " having left " the beginning word of the MESSIAH .. This " leaving " is not Permanent but Temporary .

The verb " to go on " is in the Subjunctive mood of Possibiltity , plural form , and can be translated " we should go on " to maturity or perfection .

What I am going to , is to forsake BAPTISMS that are to be Forsaken and these Baptisms involve WATER but there are more than one KIND of Baptism , about 12 different ones .

They are also mentioned in Heb 9:10 as " various washing " . It is the same Greek word in each verse , BAPTISMOS . This Greek word refers to washing and cleansing .

During the Lord's ministry to Israel , the Jews WASHED theirs Cups , Pots , Copper vessels , and beds and couches that they sat on at mealtime , Mark 7;4 , 8 .

They also WASHED their hands before eating , Luke 11:38 .

Jesus washed the Feet of His disciples , according to John 13:5-15 .

So , we see that there was more to the doctrine than John's Baptism of Repentance for the forgiveness of sins . All of this WASHING was a part of Judaism , not Christianity .

This verses means that Baptism is gone ! dan p

--- I don't know why, but the Christianityboard server runs some words together. Please overlook this--

Hello my friend, Dan P:

You have started you premise in error. You jump right into something we have discussed before. You use Acts 21:21 and draw a conclusion that Paul was teachingto forsake Moses, circumcision and Jewish customs.

This is NOT what this verse is saying. Paul, in this verse, is being “accused”of going against Moses, circumcision and Jewish customs.

Paul had just arrived here in Jerusalem and most likely with the money he collected from a lot of the churches on his third missionary trip. (Acts 21)

The brothers in Christ told him what was being said (rumors) about Him in 21:21. Get this!

These Christian brothers told him they have four men who have completed a vow (Numbers 6:1-21, defines what avow is and conditions) Paul was told to “go with them.”

“[sup]24 [/sup]Go with themto the Templeand join them in the purification ceremony, paying for them to have their heads ritually shaved. Then everyone will know that the rumors are all false and that you yourself observe the Jewish laws.” Acts 6:24

WHAT RUMORS??? Look back at 21:21 “…the Jewish believers here in Jerusalemhave been told that you are teaching all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn their backs on the laws of Moses.” (This is a RUMOR, not truth.)

Also, in 6:24 the Christian brotherssaid that Paul “…observes the Jewish laws.”

If you look at Acts 24 when Paul stands before Governor Felix he will retell what happens here in Acts 21:21. Acts 24:11 is 12 days later than Acts 21:21. The first nine verses of Acts 24 tells you the false account (rumors) of what Paul was doing. This is the rumor Acts 21:21 is referring to.

Paul takes his defense before Felix starting in verse 10 through verse 20. READ IT! Get the message of Acts 21:21 in context.

Paul always PREACHED THE GOSPEL. The Jewish believers (some) wereafter him all the time. If the gospeldid away with the Jewish customs, SO BE IT.

You then springboard. in your post,into the middle of a discussion in Hebrews 6 which really starts in Hebrews 5.

The Hebrew writer is talking to some Hebrews and tells them about the Perfect High Priest which is not prefigured inthe Aaronic priesthood (Heb 5:4-10), but in the remarkable king priest Melchizedek who, is MORE than Aaron, and reflects the greatness and the ENDLESSNESS of Christ’sPriesthood.

In verse 11, Hebrews 5:11, you see where thespeaker (Hebrew writer) REBUKES THEM. These people, his Hebrew audience, are nolonger the people they once were. Theirears are DULL or sluggish. The Hebrew writer tells them what is wrong. He can’t go on into deeper truth,deeper meat. He attempts to go on to continue (from verses 4-10) in telling them more.

“The word “dull” is from nothros (νοθρος), meaning “slow, sluggish.” It isused of the numbed limbs of a sick lion, and the stupid hopes of the wolf thatheard the nurse threaten to throw the child to the wolves. It is a combinationof two Greek words, one meaning “no,” the other “to push,” hence, “no push,”thus “slow, sluggish.” These Hebrews were slow, sluggish, stupid, numbed, intheir apprehension of the teaching of New Testament truth. This made itdifficult to teach them. The difficulty lay therefore not in the writer but inthem.” -- Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest'sword studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English reader (Heb 5:11).

By the way, the Hebrew writer from verse 11 on calls this a “discussion.” He uses the Greek words “…ὁ λόγος” In Hebrews 2:5 the Hebrew writeruses what we call a “editorial plural” in that he says, “…we are speaking,” (“ἧς λαλοῦμεν,” or “we speak.”) buthere in Hebrews 5:11he is saying, “…concerning which you and I are speaking.” IT’S A DISCUSSION and he continues thisdiscussion on through the next chapter, chapter 6.

This rebuke hurts. These Hebrews werewell versed in the Scriptures (O.T.) at one time. Now, they are thinking about dropping back into the old Judaism and giving up Christ.

So, you don’t understand? Well (my words) I will put it in “milk form.” Hebrews 5:12

“For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudimentsof the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food.”

You seem to like Greek (and I’m glad) so I will show you something in a little Greek. (I told you a friend ofmine, back in 1971, called it “greasy Greek.”)

The first thing to notice is here in Heb 5:12 where it talks about the “…rudiments of the first principles…” These “rudiments” could be translated “ABC’s”of Christ or “Back to the basics.” These“basics” are mentioned in Heb 6:1ff. (I’ve numbered them 1-6 below)

But first, in Heb 5:12 notice the Greekphrase “στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς” (“elements of the beginning…”) This phrase is referred to in Hebrews 6:1 “…τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ…” (“Beginning of Christ.”). The “beginning is the Hebrew Scriptures and is the ABC’s of Christ. The whole law system, the added law, was a scheme or tutor to bring the Jew to the Messiah. (Gal 3:24). It is FULL of types and SHADOWS ALL pointing to Messiah, Jesus the Christ. It wasfull of PICTURES of Messiah to come! PRAISE GOD!!

The Hebrew writer jumps back intothe O.T. for a moment and lists some things that make up the ABC’s (elements,beginning) of Christ in Hebrews 6:1ff.

The Hebrew writer NEVER mentions the gospel plan of salvation in these verses nor anything to do with believer’sbaptism.

He is speaking of the tutor, thelaw.

Hebrews 6:1 “Διὸ ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον” (Therefore, leaving the discussionof (which constitutes) the beginning of Christ, let us bring ourselves (in ourdiscussion) to (what constitutes) the (proper) maturity, …

ABC’S OF CHRIST: (Also referred to as “First principals ofChrist”)

1. not laying again a foundation ofrepentance from dead works,

2. faith toward God, (faith toward Godwho spoke of Christ in O.T.)

3. the doctrine concerning baptisms, (many washings in O.T.)

4. laying on of hands, (like sin andtrespass offerings)

5. resurrection of the dead, &

6. Eternal judgment.

Just like in Hebrews 5:11, 13, and now in 6:1 the genitive “τῆς ἀρχῆς” names the contents and the second genitive “τοῦ Χριστοῦ” with Him with whom the beginning of Christianity is connected. The participle is the aorist because leaving this discussion is a singleact and is now turning to things that are more advanced, more MEAT.

I want to emphasize the fact that the Hebrew writer here INCLUDES his readers (Hebrews) in this discussion. “Let us bring ourselves,” namely in this our logos or discussion “to the maturity.” This is in the middle voice and cannot mean “let me carry myself to the proper maturity.” It’s “let us bringourselves…”

Dan, I would love to write you on the Sacrificial System. I think I could write volumes on this subject. I was first introduced to this study in Bible College in 1976. It really changed my life. What a wonderful study. The whole sacrificial system points to ourLord, Jesus.

I have already dealt with Christianbaptism. Go back and look at what Iwrote: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13779-why-acts-238-is-misunderstood/

May the Lord be with ALL of US and may WE HONOR AND SERVE HIM,

In the Marines, we say Semper Fi,which means “always faithful.” When we meet today, in a grocery store, on the sidewalk, or wherever, the first words out of our mouth is Semper Fi.

This should be a Christ thing; Christians need to say this in behalf of serving the Lord.

Semper Fi,

charlesj

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We FORSAKE Jesus's teaching ??

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