Adrift in a sea of confusion, self doubt and guilt...

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wanderingone

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Apr 21, 2011
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Hello everyone

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I was raised as a Roman Catholic but I simply consider myself a Judeo Christian. But I'm not a good Catholic or a good Christian. Let me first say I have no problem whatsoever with Jesus. I consider him my Lord and Savior and I like to think that I would die for him without hesitation. My problem lies with The Father. I harbor and anger towards him that I just can't seem to free myself from. I'm angry because I feel like a pawn in some sort of metaphysical battle between good and evil that was raging long before I ever came into existence. I never asked for this. I never asked to be born. And yet here I am, thrust into the middle of some great conflict in which the very fate of humanity is at stake. I want to see The Father as a God of love and forgiveness yet he seems more like one of anger and vengeance. When I seek solace in scripture I find only more anger and frustration. It goes all the way back to the story of the creation and Adam and Eve. They were innocent. They knew nothing of good an evil. We all know the story - God place them in a paradise that was the Garden of Eden where they were told not to eat the fruit of a particular tree, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. We all know how it turned out. Satan, appearing in the form of a serpent tempted Eve with that fruit and she in turn tempted Adam and for that offense they were thrown from paradise and forced to live a life of hardship and pain. And we Christians are told that because of this we are all stained with that original sin from birth. I'm angry because it was NEVER a fair fight! Neither of them ever stood chance against this extremely powerful being who was once the most powerful angel in heaven before his fall from grace. They knew NOTHING of this until they had consumed that fruit and their eyes were opened. Why weren't that at least warned? Why was God so harsh in his punishment?

We're told that we have two basic choices: eternal salvation or eternal damnation. We're told we must worship God and love him... or else! What terrible choice to be confronted with. We must bow down and worship some all powerful and all knowing force or else burn for all eternity. What if I choose neither? What if I want what's behind door number three? As a child I can remember a nun once telling us that God thinks of us always and if he ever stopped doing so, even for a fraction of a second, we would cease to exist. What would be so bad about that? What if instead of spending eternity in heaven or hell we could just simply cease to exist once we die? Suddenly atheism doesn't look all that bad. What if we all had that third choice? And what if all of humanity opted for it? It seems to me that both heaven and hell would be quite empty and suddenly God and Satan who be forced to find some other way to resolve their conflict. One that doesn't use human beings as mere pawns in that other worldly struggle. What would God say if I found myself standing before him and told him that I wanted that third option? How would he respond?

The Wanderer
 

Angelina

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Hi Wanderer!

welcomexg.gif


As a child I can remember a nun once telling us that God thinks of us always and if he ever stopped doing so, even for a fraction of a second, we would cease to exist. What would be so bad about that? What if instead of spending eternity in heaven or hell we could just simply cease to exist once we die? Suddenly atheism doesn't look all that bad. What if we all had that third choice? And what if all of humanity opted for it? It seems to me that both heaven and hell would be quite empty and suddenly God and Satan who be forced to find some other way to resolve their conflict. One that doesn't use human beings as mere pawns in that other worldly struggle. What would God say if I found myself standing before him and told him that I wanted that third option? How would he respond?

A very good question! :)

The thing is...there is no third choice and being an atheist does not change the status quo. I agree, Adam and Eve were not equipped to handle the craftiness of the serpent. Satan and his hordes fell long before mankind entered the battle. I think that God knew that this may happen IMO and he had already prepared a plan for the salvation of mankind because of it. His plan was not to destroy man but to save them through his son...and with that salvation, he gave them a choice...something that Adam and Eve did not have [in the sense that they could not gauge good from evil because they had not eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil until the fall] and also something that we are very privileged to have because we have been exposed to what is good and what is evil. He has not forgotten the promise he made to Abraham and throughout the generations of man, he has been working toward restoring what was lost....and sent his only begotten son to redeem us through his blood.

This battle is greater than any of us really understands or can imagine and I truly believe that it has always been for our greater good, he loves us, even though we may not understand it all...this eternal plan of salvation was prepared before the foundation of the world [1 Peter 1:19-21]
for all those who believe in his son Yeshua HaMashiach by faith. [a choice].

1 Peter 1:19-21
[sup]19[/sup] but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. [sup]20[/sup] He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you [sup]21[/sup] who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.


Blessings!!!
 

timf

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My problem lies with The Father

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I'm angry because I feel like a pawn in some sort of metaphysical battle between good and evil that was raging long before I ever came into existence. I never asked for this.

The problem is that Satan runs the world (for now and in so far as he is allowed by God). The result is that we are so saturated with the culture he has designed that it is often difficult to understand the situation correctly. The picture of God and Satan tussling for control of the world is common, but inaccurate.

It goes all the way back to the story of the creation and Adam and Eve. They were innocent. They knew nothing of good an evil.

To understand what happened in the Garden of Eden, we can look at the steps;

"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? "

The phony question to plant doubt and draw someone away from obedience by first getting them to make a declaration that contains error.

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

How much better it would have been if Even had said, "I am not sure, let's ask God?"

Sin entered the world not as a penalty for being tricked, but as the natural consequence of choosing a path of "self-will". A third of the angels chose to follow Satan down this same path and their fate is already determined. There is no salvation available for angels. God has provided a way out through His Son Jesus for humans.

We're told we must worship God and love him... or else! What terrible choice to be confronted with. We must bow down and worship some all powerful and all knowing force or else burn for all eternity.

Another picture of the situation might be, we are on a sinking ship. As the rear of the ship raises out of the water and we see that the ship is about to slide quickly into the water, another ship comes along side of us and throws out a life line. However, we feel insulted that these people think we should lower ourselves to pick up the lifeline they have thrown at us. We might even become indignant of the superiority that these people think they are in a position to tell me what to do.

There are so many flavors of Christianity and so many voices shouting out that they have all the answers, it can be quite confusing. The best approach is to cling to the Bible and to Jesus (they are both truth). The Bible tells us that God gives wisdom to all who ask. We should be crying out every day for this. The Bible also tells us that pastors and teachers were given to the church to help Christians grow into the full measure of Jesus. We should not tolerate wasting time with any church or Christian leader who is not helping us become like Jesus.

What if we all had that third choice? And what if all of humanity opted for it? It seems to me that both heaven and hell would be quite empty and suddenly God and Satan who be forced to find some other way to resolve their conflict.

What if human existence wasn't about two choices at all. What if this was only a construct to deceive people into thinking God is less powerful and Satan is more powerful than they really are.

Consider the possibility that Satan has been given an amount of time in which to exercise his approach in the world (deception, manipulation, and coercion) and God has provided a lifeline of truth that anyone can grab.

At the beginning of history mankind was presented a choice, live in peaceful obedience or suffer in painful self-determination. At the end of human history we will be able to look back at every combination of government, tribe, clan, or association and see through the lens of experience that anything done apart from the will of God leads to pain and suffering.

The lesson of history is that obedience to God is not a resentful price we pay to get into heaven, it is the only way to escape the pain of selfishness and know true love, joy, and happiness.
 

wanderingone

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Apr 21, 2011
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The Bible tells us that God gives wisdom to all who ask. We should be crying out every day for this. The Bible also tells us that pastors and teachers were given to the church to help Christians grow into the full measure of Jesus.

Okay, so now we come to the bible. My first question: WHICH bible?? There are MANY versions! Most believers say the bible is the word of God and that it was divinely inspired. But few people stop to realize that the bible was EDITED by MAN many times! There are many books such as the apocraphal texts and the gnostic texts that never even made it into the bible. Some were there at the start only to be removed as heretical. Who among us is to say what books should make up the bible and what books should not?? Which ones are to be believed?

But leaving that aside for a moment, let's look at what IS in the bible. We already know that Adam and Eve got a raw deal, they simply never stood a chance. But what about Job? The bible tells us that Job kept his faith in God and followed the Commandments. Then Satan argues that Job only remained faithful to God because of all of the blessings that God had bestowed upon him. So what does God do? He takes them ALL away and inflicts UNIMAGINABLE suffering on his loyal servant Job just to make a point to Satan! This does NOT seem like an all-loving God to me! Rather, God comes across a petty and vindictive. That's more the type of response I would expect from one of us lowly humans!

Then there's the parable of the Prodigal Son. We all know the story. He went and squandered his entire inheritence while his brother remained home and HONORED his mother and his father. Then, seeing the error of his ways, he returns only to be welcomed with open arms and treated to a big celebration! Can anyone fault the prodigal son's brother for feeling that HE got a bad deal? He did EVERYTHING that was expected of him while his brother pursued a path to ruin only to finally come back to his senses and all is forgiven! If you ask me, that sets a TERRIBLE precedent! The message seems to be, forget about the commandments, forget about living a righteous, godly life. You can always change your mind and say "Oop! My bad, I made a mistake. I'll take my salvation now."

Then of course there's Cain and Able. Was Able's sacrificing so repugnent to God that he felt the need to reject it? Why didn't God simply tell him the type of sacrifice he required. To choose Able's sacrifice over cain's seems both arbitrary and capricious. I could go on at length but I think by now you get my point. Just WHAT am I supposed to believe?

wanderer

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

The problem is that Satan runs the world (for now and in so far as he is allowed by God). The result is that we are so saturated with the culture he has designed that it is often difficult to understand the situation correctly. The picture of God and Satan tussling for control of the world is common, but inaccurate.



To understand what happened in the Garden of Eden, we can look at the steps;

"Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? "

The phony question to plant doubt and draw someone away from obedience by first getting them to make a declaration that contains error.

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

How much better it would have been if Even had said, "I am not sure, let's ask God?"

Sin entered the world not as a penalty for being tricked, but as the natural consequence of choosing a path of "self-will". A third of the angels chose to follow Satan down this same path and their fate is already determined. There is no salvation available for angels. God has provided a way out through His Son Jesus for humans.



Another picture of the situation might be, we are on a sinking ship. As the rear of the ship raises out of the water and we see that the ship is about to slide quickly into the water, another ship comes along side of us and throws out a life line. However, we feel insulted that these people think we should lower ourselves to pick up the lifeline they have thrown at us. We might even become indignant of the superiority that these people think they are in a position to tell me what to do.

There are so many flavors of Christianity and so many voices shouting out that they have all the answers, it can be quite confusing. The best approach is to cling to the Bible and to Jesus (they are both truth). The Bible tells us that God gives wisdom to all who ask. We should be crying out every day for this. The Bible also tells us that pastors and teachers were given to the church to help Christians grow into the full measure of Jesus. We should not tolerate wasting time with any church or Christian leader who is not helping us become like Jesus.



What if human existence wasn't about two choices at all. What if this was only a construct to deceive people into thinking God is less powerful and Satan is more powerful than they really are.

Consider the possibility that Satan has been given an amount of time in which to exercise his approach in the world (deception, manipulation, and coercion) and God has provided a lifeline of truth that anyone can grab.

At the beginning of history mankind was presented a choice, live in peaceful obedience or suffer in painful self-determination. At the end of human history we will be able to look back at every combination of government, tribe, clan, or association and see through the lens of experience that anything done apart from the will of God leads to pain and suffering.

The lesson of history is that obedience to God is not a resentful price we pay to get into heaven, it is the only way to escape the pain of selfishness and know true love, joy, and happiness.
 

martinlawrencescott

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As to your first post I'm guessing God would respond by forcing you to watch "It's a Wonderful Life" over and over.

But I don't think its fair to ask God to take back anything He's given us. He has the right to give life and the right to take it. God constructed the laws of the universe according to His nature and purposes. He definitely is the only one who can cause you to cease to exist, but I don't think it is in His character to do so. Asking God to cause ourselves or anyone else to cease in existence would be like asking God to admit He was wrong in creating us. I think He tries to prove to each of us individually that it is worth it and that we can be beneficial on all accounts (beneficial to God, eachother, and ourselves). That a God who needs nothing and no one else would actually create more to experience Himself is remarkable. From someone who has attempted to remove his physical existence only to have it given back to him, I trust God has a reason and that He is good. I gave God my life and he gave it back with abundance.
 

mjrhealth

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He takes them ALL away and inflicts UNIMAGINABLE
Oh so God is like satan, one should read that real careful, God said to satan that he could do so much and no more, next thing God is blamed for doing this, then when satan come before God,

Job 2:3 ..... "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

As if satan can force Gods arm, as if God would like man say" look what you made me do", God is unlike man.

It was satan that caused all Jobs problems, for it was through Jobs fear, that the door was opened, if Job had no fear none of this could have taken place, its our fear that causes us to stumble and open door to the enemy.
 

wanderingone

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Apr 21, 2011
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It was satan that caused all Jobs problems, for it was through Jobs fear, that the door was opened, if Job had no fear none of this could have taken place, its our fear that causes us to stumble and open door to the enemy.

Who among us has no fear of God?? Who among us has no fear of Satan?? I get that there's no third choice, but what if there was? And what if EVERY human who ever lived opted for it? What would God do then? Would he create another group of humans or some other species to act as pawns in his battle with Satan? Just for the record, I would not prefer that choice. I mean who wouldn't want to spend eternity in everlasting paradise? I just don't see myself as worthy. There's not a single commandment I haven't broken in the course of my life. Perhaps the Catholics have it right with their notion of Purgatory. Perhaps we all need an additional cleansing before being allowed to enter heaven. That actually seems to make sense. But can anyone show me a scriptural reference that describes this place called Purgatory?

wanderer

Oh so God is like satan, one should read that real careful, God said to satan that he could do so much and no more, next thing God is blamed for doing this, then when satan come before God,

Job 2:3 ..... "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

As if satan can force Gods arm, as if God would like man say" look what you made me do", God is unlike man.

It was satan that caused all Jobs problems, for it was through Jobs fear, that the door was opened, if Job had no fear none of this could have taken place, its our fear that causes us to stumble and open door to the enemy.
 

timf

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Adrift in a sea of confusion, self doubt and guilt... A crisis of faith..

But few people stop to realize that the bible was EDITED by MAN many times!

I apologize. I took you at your word that you wanted some answers to questions that were bothering you. It now sounds like you just want to instruct us as to how wrong the Bible is.

Some were there at the start only to be removed as heretical. Who among us is to say what books should make up the bible and what books should not?? Which ones are to be believed?

Your declarations are inconsistent with the historical facts of the canonization of scripture. I have to assume that your vehemence is more a result of emotional distress than factual knowledge.

But leaving that aside for a moment, let's look at what IS in the bible. We already know that Adam and Eve got a raw deal, they simply never stood a chance.

Are you declaring that Adam and Even are in hell being punished. I assume that Since God described to them the plan of Salvation (that Jesus would make the payment for all sin), that they repented and trusted in this promise.

But what about Job? The bible tells us that Job kept his faith in God and followed the Commandments. Then Satan argues that Job only remained faithful to God because of all of the blessings that God had bestowed upon him. So what does God do? He takes them ALL away and inflicts UNIMAGINABLE suffering on his loyal servant Job just to make a point to Satan! This does NOT seem like an all-loving God to me! Rather, God comes across a petty and vindictive. That's more the type of response I would expect from one of us lowly humans!

There are many lessons in Job. Some of which benefited Job as he came to better understand exactly who God is and who he was. The whole point of Job is that God is above such anthropomorphisms.

Then there's the parable of the Prodigal Son. We all know the story. He went and squandered his entire inheritence while his brother remained home and HONORED his mother and his father. Then, seeing the error of his ways, he returns only to be welcomed with open arms and treated to a big celebration! Can anyone fault the prodigal son's brother for feeling that HE got a bad deal? He did EVERYTHING that was expected of him while his brother pursued a path to ruin only to finally come back to his senses and all is forgiven! If you ask me, that sets a TERRIBLE precedent! The message seems to be, forget about the commandments, forget about living a righteous, godly life. You can always change your mind and say "Oop! My bad, I made a mistake. I'll take my salvation now."

Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

There are two things to see. The prodigal brother did not get a new share of the inheritance. However, he was restored to sonship.

Then of course there's Cain and Able. Was Able's sacrificing so repugnent to God that he felt the need to reject it? Why didn't God simply tell him the type of sacrifice he required. To choose Able's sacrifice over cain's seems both arbitrary and capricious. I could go on at length but I think by now you get my point. Just WHAT am I supposed to believe?

You start with the assumption that the only sin of Cain was not having been told what he should do. The Bible says that Able gave of the first fruit. It does not say that Cain gave of his first fruit. We do not know the exact nature of the infraction only that God found the offering insufficient. To go beyond what is said and make assumptions that fault God is not the search for truth, but the emotional need to strike out.

If you have a sincere desire to find truth, God will lead you. There are a multitude of false teachers, there are an almost endless supply of churches declaring seemingly contradictory things. In the midst of this chaos, there is an eternal God who sends His Spirit to lead us in all truth.

You can know truth and leave the frustration of ignorance and deception. However, the path starts with humility before an all powerful God. If you are sincere in a desire to know truth, the only option available is He who is truth. Satan has done a good job vilifying God. He has painted Him as capricious, mean, and even unstable. The reason Satan has done this is that God is the only source of truth and wisdom. Satan operates through lies and deception. Satan does not want anyone to come to truth.

You may have had a rough life. You may have been taught erroneous things about God, you may feel lost and frustrated. Regardless of what has happened, there is still only one source of truth.

At some point you are going to have to decide if you want to spend your life in frustrated accusation of Him you do not understand or if broken hearted you can come to Him to draw nearer to truth.
 

wanderingone

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I apologize. I took you at your word that you wanted some answers to questions that were bothering you. It now sounds like you just want to instruct us as to how wrong the Bible is.

timf

If I didn't know better I would think you were judging me with a hardened heart. But since you're undoubtedly a model Christian, that couldn't possibly be true, could it? You speak of "THE bible" and yet when I correctly pointed out that there are MANY versions of the bible, all of which were in fact edited by man, you accuse me of instructing you "as to how wrong the bible is". Let me ask the question again in the hope that time has softened your heart. WHICH bible?? Perhaps before you answer in kneejerk fashion you could check out this link:

http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-versions/

Or perhaps you'd rather conclude that this website was set up by some followers of Satan to confuse good Christians? May I ask you then, which version of the bible do YOU read?

Your declarations are inconsistent with the historical facts of the canonization of scripture. I have to assume that your vehemence is more a result of emotional distress than factual knowledge.

"They have eyes yet they see not" FYI, I'm paraphrasing here. If you want the actual version check out this link: http://bible.cc/psalms/135-16.htm But oops! Dang it all, there's those multiple versions again. Pperhaps you can enlighten me as to which one is correct? But I digress. I really meant to respond to that "your vehemence is more a result of emotional distress than factual knowledge" quip. Emotional distress? I dunno, why don't you look at the title of my original post and use a little deductive reasoning.

Are you declaring that Adam and Even are in hell being punished. I assume that Since God described to them the plan of Salvation (that Jesus would make the payment for all sin), that they repented and trusted in this promise.

I made no such claim about Adan and Eve. I merely pointed out the obvious and that is the deck was stacked against them. They were pitted against a nefarious, immortal being of extraordinary power of which they knew NOTHING!

There are many lessons in Job. Some of which benefited Job as he came to better understand exactly who God is and who he was. The whole point of Job is that God is above such anthropomorphisms.

To me the lesson seems to be honor God and keep his commandments but don't ever assume that you'll stay in His good graces because you never know when Satan may decide to pick another fight with him and you could find yourself stuck in the middle!

Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. There are two things to see. The prodigal brother did not get a new share of the inheritance. However, he was restored to sonship.

The message is still a confusing and convoluted one. The one who honored his father and God is virtually ignored whereas the one who engaged in proligate behavior and finally sees the error of his ways is greeted as a hero. The message seems to be sin as much as you want as long as you repent in the end and all will be forgiven.

You start with the assumption that the only sin of Cain was not having been told what he should do. The Bible says that Able gave of the first fruit. It does not say that Cain gave of his first fruit. We do not know the exact nature of the infraction only that God found the offering insufficient. To go beyond what is said and make assumptions that fault God is not the search for truth, but the emotional need to strike out.

Okay, let's say I give you that one. Let's say I have an emotional need to strike out. Is a son NEVER at odds with his father? Is he NEVER allowed to feel anger towards him? If he does, will his father not forgive him? My earthly father always forgave me because he always knew that deep down I loved him. Perhaps this idea is foreign to you. Perhaps you were MUCH better behaved as a child. Kudos to you then!

If you have a sincere desire to find truth, God will lead you. There are a multitude of false teachers, there are an almost endless supply of churches declaring seemingly contradictory things. In the midst of this chaos, there is an eternal God who sends His Spirit to lead us in all truth.

If I didn't have a sincere desire to find truthy why would I even have come here in the first place?

You can know truth and leave the frustration of ignorance and deception. However, the path starts with humility before an all powerful God. If you are sincere in a desire to know truth, the only option available is He who is truth. Satan has done a good job vilifying God. He has painted Him as capricious, mean, and even unstable. The reason Satan has done this is that God is the only source of truth and wisdom. Satan operates through lies and deception. Satan does not want anyone to come to truth.

I've been seeking the truth my whole life. And for the record, I don't need to be warned about Satan.

You may have had a rough life. You may have been taught erroneous things about God, you may feel lost and frustrated. Regardless of what has happened, there is still only one source of truth.

"Lost and frustrated"?? Gee what gave me away? <rolls eyes>

At some point you are going to have to decide if you want to spend your life in frustrated accusation of Him you do not understand or if broken hearted you can come to Him to draw nearer to truth.

Ummmm... scroll up?

wanderer
 

aspen

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Hi Wanderer,

You are right about the many different translations of the Bible, however; they are all based on the same ancient writings.......also, all the translations agree with each other - they simply include different angles on the same story.

I disagree with you about being offered only two choices - damnation or salvation; Instead, I believe we are offered a chance to become well again after a long sickness. It is easy to get caught up in a dualistic mindset when you look at Christian doctrine, but in actuality, dualism has nothing to do with Christianity.

Also, the OT is filled with stories about a God who appears to be petty, vicious, intolerant, and nationalistic, but in reality, the OT is written from man's perspective, not God's. It is inspired and it is a true account, but it is an account from the point of view of the petty, vicious, intolerant, nationalistic people who wrote it......

God declared Himself in the OT "I AM" - the remainder of the OT is devoted to the recording of humanities countless failures to respond to God's declaration. The NT is God's perfect response to His own declaration - Jesus. His Son is our salvation and our example of the proper response to God.

"He is, therefore I love"
 

wanderingone

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In general I don't disagree with your perception about the various versions of the bible. The point I was trying to get across is that many people tend to say "the bible" without ever acknowledging that there are variations. And while it's true that there is general agreement between them, I've learned that the old adage "the devil is in the details" really tends to apply with all things religious.

What I have a much harder time wrapping my head around is the many various Christian denominations, each of which people their own unique spin on the Good Book. Consider this: I simply did a Google search for "Christian Denominations" and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

The group of people calling themselves "Christian" spans a huge array of thinking and doctrine when it comes to ANY version of the bible. For instance, Catholics and Congregationalists are both Christian but they're about as different in their views on christianity as night and day. So which path does one follow? I was raised a Catholic and the Catholic church, even with all its flaws, will always occupy a special place in my heart. But at the same time, I have MANY issues with THEIR particular take on christianity. As a result I find myself hungering for a closer relationship with God for both myself and my family but I'm at a loss as to which Christian path I should follow...

wanderer

Hi Wanderer,

You are right about the many different translations of the Bible, however; they are all based on the same ancient writings.......also, all the translations agree with each other - they simply include different angles on the same story.

I disagree with you about being offered only two choices - damnation or salvation; Instead, I believe we are offered a chance to become well again after a long sickness. It is easy to get caught up in a dualistic mindset when you look at Christian doctrine, but in actuality, dualism has nothing to do with Christianity.

Also, the OT is filled with stories about a God who appears to be petty, vicious, intolerant, and nationalistic, but in reality, the OT is written from man's perspective, not God's. It is inspired and it is a true account, but it is an account from the point of view of the petty, vicious, intolerant, nationalistic people who wrote it......

God declared Himself in the OT "I AM" - the remainder of the OT is devoted to the recording of humanities countless failures to respond to God's declaration. The NT is God's perfect response to His own declaration - Jesus. His Son is our salvation and our example of the proper response to God.

"He is, therefore I love"
 

aspen

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Aspen

In general I don't disagree with your perception about the various versions of the bible. The point I was trying to get across is that many people tend to say "the bible" without ever acknowledging that there are variations. And while it's true that there is general agreement between them, I've learned that the old adage "the devil is in the details" really tends to apply with all things religious.

What I have a much harder time wrapping my head around is the many various Christian denominations, each of which people their own unique spin on the Good Book. Consider this: I simply did a Google search for "Christian Denominations" and found this:

http://en.wikipedia....n_denominations

The group of people calling themselves "Christian" spans a huge array of thinking and doctrine when it comes to ANY version of the bible. For instance, Catholics and Congregationalists are both Christian but they're about as different in their views on christianity as night and day. So which path does one follow? I was raised a Catholic and the Catholic church, even with all its flaws, will always occupy a special place in my heart. But at the same time, I have MANY issues with THEIR particular take on christianity. As a result I find myself hungering for a closer relationship with God for both myself and my family but I'm at a loss as to which Christian path I should follow...

wanderer



Mm

The longer I walk with Christ, the more I believe that the Devil is not found in the details......instead, he is found in the compulsion of post-enlightenment humanity to reduce Christianity to it's smallest particle in search of truth at the microscopic level. Reductionism always leads to meaninglessness, no matter how true a concept is because human reason is limited.

I think we are compelled to squeeze the life out of areas of our life that we feel we are not in control of. I am guilty of doing it on the job - I want to do the best job possible and am often guilty of trying too hard. People are always telling me to relax at work because my insecurity compels me to cross every t and dot every i. My tendency to over analyze all details of my job, often threatens the very reason for my employment - to help my clients! My roommate in college was always trying too hard to find a girlfriend - as a result, he would end up acting foolish, coming on too strong, or smothering the person he wanted to be in relationship with.

Our relationship with God often compels people to get caught up in the details as well - the Pharisees were guilty of this. Like all people in power, they wanted to possess the most control possible over their doctrines - so much so, that they ended up streamlining love right out of it! When they encountered Jesus, they were confronted with the fact that they were squeezing the essence out of Judaism - healing on the Sabbath is an expression of love, and therefore, not a violation of the Law.

The details of the Bible are interesting, but the big picture is the most important. Jesus summed up the Law as 'love your neighbor as yourself and love God with all of your being' - that is the essence of Christianity that often gets lost in our pursuit of hermeneutics and exegesis and trying to imitate the early church - as if they were somehow, more pure than our churches.

Denominations are an expression of our need to exercise control over details that really do not matter. Even doctrines that seem important like, 'can we lose our salvation?' really do not matter if we are loving God with all of our being and loving our neighbor as ourselves. In fact, doctrine often gets in the way of our sanctification because it divides us from our neighbors and distracts us from loving God.

I once heard some advice from a professor that has stuck with me - he told me to experience life with a light touch - grasp too tightly and the essence will slip through your fingers like sand. Make loving your career and doctrine your hobby because your salvation is not based on your knowledge, it is based on your capacity to love.

hope that helps.