Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

Lifelong_sinner · Oct 24, 2021

Wrangler said:
Interestingly, my pastor invoked this very passage to reinforce the notion that the law does not apply to us. The opening parenthetical expression, 'Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given' makes it clear the law applies to some and not others. What is your take on this part of the verse?

Romans 3:19
New Living Translation

19 Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God.

people like atheists clearly dont care about the law. So in their own minds, they are not under the law. But as is always the case, our feelings dont matter as they come from the heart, and the heart is notoriously wicked.

the law is not what saves, but it is intended to explain why we need a Saviour. The law brings us to Jesus. I also believe in this case, God gave the law to His chosen people so that they could be an inspiration to others.

Ferris Bueller · Oct 24, 2021

Wrangler said:
Interesting. Where is that in Scripture? I'd love to give that for my Pastor's consideration.

"19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." Romans 3:19

Oh, I see it has already been provided for you.

Ferris Bueller · Oct 24, 2021

Wrangler said:
He also said something else that didn't sit well with me; that we are not Abraham's spiritual children.

"if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

bbyrd009 · Oct 24, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
Lol, I am indeed set free from the condemnation of the law and it's requirements for endless sacrifice and it's ability to arouse sin in me! That someday came 35 years ago.

ah, cool. i noticed that we usually just repeat that for…ever, rather than it ever coming to mean anything practical

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

quietthinker said:
Do you think there could be another way of looking at it/seeing it?

I see it the way the Bible presents it. I don’t question the Creator or his requirements as he sets them out in his word.
Blood is the very symbol of life....it was sacred to God from the start. In his original creation there was not a single creature who killed another for food. All creatures were vegetarians.

Genesis 1:29-30...
“Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.”

Only when Noah came out of the ark did God give man permission to eat the flesh of animals.....he does not tell us why.....but there had to be a good reason.

Along with that permission, was the first of three periods of time where God stated his strict laws on the use of blood.

Genesis 9:3-7...God told Noah....
“Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat. 5 Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother. 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man. 7 As for you, be fruitful and become many, and increase abundantly on the earth and multiply.”

So blood is symbolically sacred to God because it represents the life of every creature who possesses it. This is what makes “atonement”....”at-one-meant”.....one for one.
“Life for life” meant blood for blood. Animal blood provided temporary atonement and was a regular reminder of the sacrifice of the one life that would end sacrifice forever. The true atonement of the blood of Christ, “once for all time” that would grant forgiveness of sins and guarantee that all who are in their graves would be restored to life, once God’s contest with his adversary was finalised. (I believe that we are close now)

We await those “new heavens and new earth” as a new world where wickedness will no longer dominate in the world of mankind....and where the dead will be brought back to a world with no satan or demonic influence on corrupt world rulers. Paradise conditions will be restored and man can enjoy this earth free from fear....as he was meant to.

God’s promises in Isaiah 65: are comforting....the bad things were have endured in this contest will not remain to spoil our new world experience.

Isaiah 65:16-17.....God promises.....
“For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.
17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.”

This all makes sense to me....what about you?

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
you must not realize that to deny the Trinity is a sign that you are not saved.

Or to hold to a blasphemy is deserving of death. The trinity is a breach of the first Commandment.....Christendom has place the Son on equal footing with his God and Father.
The Jews and early Christians did not believe in a triune God because the God of Israel...the God of Jesus Christ...is “one”....not “three”. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Trinities of gods have existed in paganism for thousands of years......but never in Judaism or first century Christianity. It was not officially adopted into church doctrine till the 4th century...and only then after much controversy. If a lie persists long enough, people will accept it as truth.

Lifelong_sinner said:
Unbelievable how much bad/false theology can exist on a christian forum…

People need to know that there are many ways to view the Christian Faith. How does one find the raw diamond in a pile of broken glass unless one knows what a raw diamond looks like?

Jesus said that there would be “wheat and weeds” growing in the world together, right up until the “harvest time”.....if you don’t know the difference how will you discern which is which?

And since “few” are said to be on the road to life, (Matthew 7:13-14) perhaps it pays to look in places where you least expect to find the truth. God’s true worshippers have never been in a majority.....satan will paint them as fakes and heretics like he did with Jesus and his apostles. Only those who love the truth will accept it along with the world’s hatred. (John 15:18-21)

Grailhunter · Oct 24, 2021

amadeus said:
Who is able to make sense out of it all? Who is able to open up those things which have been sealed?

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Dan 12:8-9

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Rev 5:1-5

Who is able to make sense out of it all? Who is able to open up those things which have been sealed?

You guys do it to yourselves....really and honestly. The one God formula for the Trinity pretty much makes a kaleidoscope out of the scriptures. You can work and work and you will never get a clear picture.

amadeus · Oct 24, 2021

Grailhunter said:
Who is able to make sense out of it all? Who is able to open up those things which have been sealed?

You guys do it to yourselves....really and honestly. The one God formula for the Trinity pretty much makes a kaleidoscope out of the scriptures. You can work and work and you will never get a clear picture.

"You guys...?

What are you talking about here with me? The nature of God as in Oneness versus Trinity?

In spite of the OP, I was really was not focusing on that subject at all but more generally about everything of God that is unknown or unclear to men. For whom will they be opened?

God gives and is giving any real increase to anyone who needs it and is open to Him. Many people want things from God, but what is it that they need? What will be opened? What is opened in that verse quoted from Revelation?
Do we really need to know, or is it another one of those wants?

Hidden In Him · Oct 24, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Billy to Bible study teacher: Why did God have to send himself down to earth to become his own son to sacrifice himself just to convince himself to forgive us?

Bible study teacher to Billy: Sounds like a typical JW/Unitarian set up question, Billy, designed to misrepresent Trinitarian teaching from the outset rather than engage in honest debate. If you came to this Bible study, Billy, why is it that you have little more respect for others than to disrupt things with such a deliberately antagonistic and divisive question? Does continually stirring up strife represent the way true Christians are supposed to act? Were you "merely asking a question" or "merely getting people to think," or engaging in a rather immature, childish and trite exercise in antagonism? Or do you think we are naive? I suppose we should add that to your growing list of disrespectful behaviors as well.

How does this reflect spiritual maturity on your part, Billy? Answer my question. I answered yours.

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
And yet the law condemns the whole world.

Romans 2:12-16
“For all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.”

Some interesting thoughts conveyed in these words....sinners will answer to God...period.
Those who consider themselves to be under God’s law will be judged by it. But since Gentiles were not under the Law, they had no requirement to keep it......yet all will be judged by the dictates of their own God-given conscience.

To the Jewish Christians who wanted to impose circumcision on Gentile believers in the first century, the elders in Jerusalem who adjudicated the matter said, after much prayer and consultation with the scriptures....
“For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!” (Acts 15:28-29)

So Gentiles were not obligated to be circumcised or to keep a Sabbath or anything else that the Jews were commanded to do. All the “necessary things” were those things common to Gentiles but not to Jews, who already observed them. These pertained false worship, the proper use of blood, and sexual immorality.

The new covenant inaugurated by Jesus on the night before his death made the old covenant with its strict requirements, obsolete. It was nailed to the execution stake of the Christ. (Colossians 2:14)

Galatians 3:10-13...
“All those who depend on works of law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not remain in all the things written in the scroll of the Law by doing them.” 11 Moreover, it is evident that by law no one is declared righteous with God, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” 12 Now the Law is not based on faith. Rather, “anyone who does these things will live by means of them.” 13 Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.”

That is all pretty clear and straight forward to me......what about you?

quietthinker · Oct 24, 2021

Ferris Bueller said:
Just faith.

"Jesus saw their faith" Mark 2:5

No doubt he believed otherwise he wouldn't have motivated his friends to cut through the roof. I'd say the bloke was like a dog with a bone

Lifelong_sinner · Oct 24, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Or to hold to a blasphemy is deserving of death. The trinity is a breach of the first Commandment.....Christendom has place the Son on equal footing with his God and Father.
The Jews and early Christians did not believe in a triune God because the God of Israel...the God of Jesus Christ...is “one”....not “three”. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Trinities of gods have existed in paganism for thousands of years......but never in Judaism or first century Christianity. It was not officially adopted into church doctrine till the 4th century...and only then after much controversy. If a lie persists long enough, people will accept it as truth.

People need to know that there are many ways to view the Christian Faith. How does one find the raw diamond in a pile of broken glass unless one knows what a raw diamond looks like?

Jesus said that there would be “wheat and weeds” growing in the world together, right up until the “harvest time”.....if you don’t know the difference how will you discern which is which?

And since “few” are said to be on the road to life, (Matthew 7:13-14) perhaps it pays to look in places where you least expect to find the truth. God’s true worshippers have never been in a majority.....satan will paint them as fakes and heretics like he did with Jesus and his apostles. Only those who love the truth will accept it along with the world’s hatred. (John 15:18-21)

wow!! Another who discredits the Trinity. Seriously, its time to rename this forums to fake christian forums. The Trinity is not blasphemy!! But to deny the Trinity is a sign of the reprobate, hell bound, and false converts.

quietthinker · Oct 24, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
I see it the way the Bible presents it. I don’t question the Creator or his requirements as he sets them out in his word.
Blood is the very symbol of life....it was sacred to God from the start. In his original creation there was not a single creature who killed another for food. All creatures were vegetarians.

Genesis 1:29-30...
“Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.”

Only when Noah came out of the ark did God give man permission to eat the flesh of animals.....he does not tell us why.....but there had to be a good reason.

Along with that permission, was the first of three periods of time where God stated his strict laws on the use of blood.

Genesis 9:3-7...God told Noah....
“Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you. 4 Only flesh with its life—its blood—you must not eat. 5 Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother. 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image He made man. 7 As for you, be fruitful and become many, and increase abundantly on the earth and multiply.”

So blood is symbolically sacred to God because it represents the life of every creature who possesses it. This is what makes “atonement”....”at-one-meant”.....one for one.
“Life for life” meant blood for blood. Animal blood provided temporary atonement and was a regular reminder of the sacrifice of the one life that would end sacrifice forever. The true atonement of the blood of Christ, “once for all time” that would grant forgiveness of sins and guarantee that all who are in their graves would be restored to life, once God’s contest with his adversary was finalised. (I believe that we are close now)

We await those “new heavens and new earth” as a new world where wickedness will no longer dominate in the world of mankind....and where the dead will be brought back to a world with no satan or demonic influence on corrupt world rulers. Paradise conditions will be restored and man can enjoy this earth free from fear....as he was meant to.

God’s promises in Isaiah 65: are comforting....the bad things were have endured in this contest will not remain to spoil our new world experience.

Isaiah 65:16-17.....God promises.....
“For the former distresses will be forgotten;
They will be concealed from my eyes.
17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart.”

This all makes sense to me....what about you?

I think there is another way of seeing it apart from the blood/payment narrative. A way that vindicates God most beautifully.

amadeus · Oct 24, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
wow!! Another who discredits the Trinity. Seriously, its time to rename this forums to fake christian forums. The Trinity is not blasphemy!! But to deny the Trinity is a sign of the reprobate, hell bound, and false converts.

Are all doubters guilty of blasphemy? If yes, then probably we would all be guilty!

Do you for example doubt that your prayer for a person deceased in his flesh could result in his resurrection in the flesh?

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

quietthinker said:
I think there is another way of seeing it apart from the blood/payment narrative. A way that vindicates God most beautifully.

Would you like to explain that a bit more clearly?
How do you see God vindicated apart from the atonement? The sin atoning sacrifice of Christ was carried from Genesis right through to Revelation....it is the theme of the entire Bible.

Grailhunter · Oct 24, 2021

amadeus said:
"You guys...?

What are you talking about here with me? The nature of God as in Oneness versus Trinity?

In spite of the OP, I was really was not focusing on that subject at all but more generally about everything of God that is unknown or unclear to men. For whom will they be opened?

God gives and is giving any real increase to anyone who needs it and is open to Him. Many people want things from God, but what is it that they need? What will be opened? What is opened in that verse quoted from Revelation?
Do we really need to know, or is it another one of those wants?

All good Amadeus. I am addressing the fact that the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity is way off and skews the meaning of not only the scriptures but as a concept and the storyline of the Gospels.
Yahweh, God the Father, Almighty, creator of Heaven earth.
Yeshua, God the Son, Messiah and Savior.
The unnamed God, known in the Bible as the Holy Spirit.

The Gospels portrays them as three separate beings. I have given like a hundreds reason why the one God formula is incorrect.

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
wow!! Another who discredits the Trinity. Seriously, its time to rename this forums to fake christian forums. The Trinity is not blasphemy!! But to deny the Trinity is a sign of the reprobate, hell bound, and false converts.

Oh dear....how could you worship a god who burns people in hell with no way to repent! and who has three heads that talk to each other......and you think we are weird???

Before the 4th century the trinity did not exist in Christianity. In all three “Abrahamic” religions, the concept of a triune god is foreign. Only Christendom adopted that puppy hundreds of years after Jesus died, along with a bunch of other homeless pagan beliefs and traditions that found a good home.

Do you do no research of your own?

Ronald Nolette · Oct 24, 2021

Robert Gwin said:
Billy to Bible study teacher: Why did God have to send himself down to earth to become his own son to sacrifice himself just to convince himself to forgive us?

Because the Father who is god, sent His son who is god to die so God the father can forgive us! It only becomes silly when you try to limit divinity to just the Father.

Lifelong_sinner · Oct 24, 2021

Aunty Jane said:
Oh dear....how could you worship a god who burns people in hell with no way to repent! and who has three heads that talk to each other......and you think we are weird???

Do you do no research of your own?

so you think that people can get out of hell after they are sent there??? LOLOL. also, the Trinity is three separate persons. The book of John explains this. But a simpler version is in the WCF chapter 2, sect. 3.
“III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, (1Jo 5:7; Mat 3:16-17; Mat 28:19; 2Co 13:14): the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, (Jhn 1:14; Jhn 1:18); the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son, (Jhn 15:26; Gal 4:6).”

Aunty Jane · Oct 24, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
so you think that people can get out of hell after they are sent there??? LOLOL.

Which “Hell” would that be? “Hades”....”Gehenna”....”the lake of fire” ...or “Tartarus”?

Please explain which one you refer to as they are all translated as “Hell” in many Bibles.

the Trinity is three separate persons. The book of John explains this. But a simpler version is in the WCF chapter 2, sect. 3.
“III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, (1Jo 5:7; Mat 3:16-17; Mat 28:19; 2Co 13:14): the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, (Jhn 1:14; Jhn 1:18); the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son, (Jhn 15:26; Gal 4:6).”

I can find “God the Father” mentioned many times in the scriptures......but for the life of me I cannot find one single mention of “God the Son” or “God the Holy Ghost”.....the word “ghost” is not mentioned in the Bible at all because there is no such thing as a “ghost”. It is taken from a German word “Geist” (as in poltergeist) which simply means “spirit”. So you could start there....

Silly question, but a thought provoking one:

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