Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Actually it becomes really silly when you apply God-given logic, and the fact that there is no trinity in the Bible at all.
Silly question, but a thought provoking one:
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DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the tomb is empty.
Humans can't do that. It was the Holy Spirit, the same spirit who put him in Mary's womb, rose him up from death.
Life and death, pretty interesting.
O death, where is your sting?
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
Another spin on the truth by Aunty Jane. "No trinity in the Bible at all"! Wow! That is a major discovery! Keep it up Aunty Jane and you will be identified with the wolves in sheep's clothing.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I admit my pastor's response to this was not satisfactory. He invoked a duality. I decided for the sake of the relationship to let it go. Was that wrong?
And then you give Aunty Jane a "like" for telling us that there is no Trinity in the Bible. So are you confused even about these fundamentals?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is the problem Enoch.....are these teachings the “fundamentals” of “Christianity” or “Churchianity”? Can you tell the difference? As I have mentioned, when a lie is told for centuries, people get to believe that it’s true, when it never was.
He sent Jesus to atone for our sins and bring about the eternal life of man.
Suffered death and was resurrected to smite death itself. Death seeing him alive after he died. Now death can have no fearmongering among the children of God.
Bled and was killed to atone for our sins that we might be forgiven. And to those he forgives he purifies with the Holy Spirit and Blood of the Lamb to bring them closer to God and the way of life: Jesus' way.
I think Billy needs a correct teacher to steer him to a correct doctrine.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Truth. If Aunty Jane where close to being wrong, you could produce a verse that says something like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the F, S and HS, who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.
The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the theology. Jesus did not teach the trinity.
The only God is Jesus’ God. Eph 1:3, 17.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It pivots on the way (how) atonement and payment are seen AJ....please hear me out.
None of the progeny of Adam had any say in the inherited, shall I call it, deficits. They had no say on being born on this planet; they were given a hand they did not ask for; death being their final lot.....none escape it.....babies, animals, and plants.
.....and God knows this. We are born on the Death Star so to speak.
He absolutely knows that mankind is helpless just like a drowning man.
When a rescuer (a saviour) comes along he does not give the drowning man instruction in his helpless and unconscious state. He does not require a payment; he pulls him out of the water in hope that the drowning man will breath.
I am aware that analogies have limitations however, bear with me.
A regression.....God has been maligned by the Son of the Morning (satan) well before man was created. Many of the angels bought his story.....his maligning continued after man's creation and man took the bait....and God goes into rescue mode....(planed well before)
He makes promises.....several of them to succeeding generations....all which amount to the same thing....rescue!
The Creator also knew that his rescue plan would result in it being misrepresented.....he knew his efforts would result in his own death by those he came to rescue.
He represents himself as a lamb....harmless and innocent which we kill....yes, we kill.....even more, he allows us to kill....he does not resist though he easily could/can. How is it that he does this? So we (and the inhabited Universe....angels included) can see that any maligning by the evil one is baseless. (God is not selfish even to the point of self preservation).....he gave, even his life.
It is the evil one who is the trader....God is the giver (unfettered)....of life and light and love.
The evil one represented God as needing blood as payment for transgression.....oh how subtle!......payment being a trade.
Consider the drowning man analogy....no payment needed or wanted by the rescuer (saviour)
The rescue is performed because of a far deeper motivation.....in the case of God, because of his love (emotional) to the creation made in his image (man) ....God felt....compassion.....this was his motivation.
Blood (his own) was a result of our (man's) hatred.....not his requirement.
Enough for now. How we see...shifts everything!
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@FluffyYellowDuck What a great chapter, 1 Corinthians 15, from where you quoted! I love how the victory of verse 57 leads immediately to steadfast, confident service in verse 58.
DuckieLady
Well-Known Member
I see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the trinity and not confusing at all - like Neapolitan ice cream, they're three different flavors but they're all ice cream.
But shes right in that the term "trinity" isn't in the Bible. The perception and understanding comes from reading the Bible. It is also interesting and worth mentioning that it was three "people" who came to Abraham in Genesis.
Anyway, it was automatic, but had I not liked it, I wouldn't have had been questioned to have the opportunity or any reason to say any of this.
And I would not have because I'm feeling antisocial
So I'll tag @Aunty Jane and maybe it will help things make more sense.
Its a useful term to make the concept easier to understand. It comes from the Latin word Trinitas, which just means "the number three."
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The word Trinity isn't in the Bible but what it refers to - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - certainly is in the Bible - and overwhelmingly so...
Very well!
So then that is where you are. My place is neither with the Catholics nor the Oneness Jesus Only group although I have been in both places. I will leave it at that as it is not for me an AT [Absolute Truth].
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, you were not wrong to let it go. Pastors do not respond well to correction.
I've come to the conclusion that pastors and their churches should not be interfered with from within. Just let them be what they are. They don't change and it's not worth the effort to try to change them, no matter how politely you do that. I would just concentrate on your own relationship and growth with God through your own Bible reading and fellowship with others who are doing the same thing.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
How you feeling with this thing?
Stress I understand but is it getting you down?
International forum....you got a lot of people praying for you.
As far as the Trinity...so many questions are answered and understandings that come into focus if the one God Formula is dropped.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is what is observed to an untrained eye I think. I used to mull these questions over in my mind too, but as I studied the Bible, the motivation behind the object lesson became clear to me.
Its true, we did not ask for this life...it was forced on us, and we suffer it against our will until we realise what God's will is.
This contest between God and his adversary has deeper implications than what many realise IMO. And because he is the only "adversary" mentioned in scripture (the instigator of rebellion) we can assume that he is the leader of a rebellion, but not the only rebel.
Because satan challenged God's Sovereignty rather than his power....questions were raised in the hearing of other free willed beings about God's character and his rights in connection with his Sovereignty.....and these had to be addressed.
Was God a liar? Did he hold back something useful to his earthly creatures? Was he wrongly motivated because he placed limits on the exercise of their free will? There was only one way to test out the devil's claims and in the process, to test out the rest of mankind. He handed the human race over to the 'god' they had chosen and gave him "enough rope"....to prove his claims to be the better god and ruler of mankind....or to hang himself.
Mankind too was given the same rope, but with instructions on how to use it to get out of the prison that they had been forced into, rather than to hang themselves. Some would use it wisely, but the majority would not.....God let them decide.
He already knew the outcome so he could confidently allow this test which would clarify all those issues and settle them once and for all....precedents would be set for all eternity, so that none of these things could ever be raised again. I think God's approach was very long term....but compared to eternity, it was worth a few thousand years of struggle. Like undergoing a long and complicated operation to correct a physical defect...painful, but worth the suffering to gain the lifetime's cure.
If God had merely put the rebels down, what would that have proven? Only that he more powerful....satan was not stupid so he couched his arguments to imply that God was somehow deficient in what he had offered his human children. If he had just destroyed the rebels, then there was nothing to stop an endless line of 'resistors' ready and willing to take satan's place.
The meaning of the adversary's names.... "satan" and "devil" are descriptors of his character....a 'slanderer'....a 'resistor'....so, since no other angels are mentioned as being in this category till later, I am not sure where you get the idea that rebellion in heaven happened much earlier.
Can you offer some backup for this assertion?
Well, from my perspective I see that God was willing to suffer along with humanity from the devil's taunts and misrepresentations, (Proverbs 27:11) in order to settle all these things once and for all time.
I do not believe that Jesus is God and it is impossible for an immortal God to die. The illustrative account of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son is showing us how God felt when he was required to sacrifice his son to balance the scales of his perfect justice. In this case however, there was no providing of a substitute...the son was sacrificed to pay the debt that Adam left to his children. One can only imagine how it pained him to watch his most cherished son endure such a torturous death.
If you read through from Genesis to Revelation there is that common thread of rescue....being "saved"....but what are we being "saved" from?
He could not give his own life because he is an immortal. He had to send his most trusted son and servant because all the lives of humanity rested on his shoulders. The son did not disappoint his Father. Just as Isaac willingly submitted to Abraham, Jesus willingly submitted to his Father.
You have just negated the most beautiful act of selflessness ever offered to mankind. The law of God did not come from the devil.
"Life for a life"..."blood for blood" was the payment in order for justice to be served. It explains why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race in order to pay the redemption price. Nothing short of that would have repayed the debt.
I do not agree with this for reasons just explained.
This is so true....so HOW we see shouldn't "shift" the truth contained in God's word....it all must agree.
Stress was a major factor in me taking early retirement 21 years ago... but I move on. The stress is not from worry. My brain simply cannot process some things very well when too many of them hit me too fast. I purposely slowed way down and where it is important, my wife has learned to take up the slack. Which way this thing in my lung goes is in the hands of God. It is His time!
The only time I was ever any kind of a Trinitarian was when I was growing up as a Catholic. I never ever read the Bible when I was an active Catholic. My belief in the Trinity was a matter a following the leaders. I really did try to do that.
Now I see a better explanation for me than the Trinity, but most people are locked into their position on that issue so I leave them alone unless I am given reason to do otherwise. In most cases for most people, I do not believe it is a 'salvation' issue.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 28:12-19
I deduct from this reply you sympathise with the JW position? is this correct? ......and may I add....what is impossible for man is possible for God....Luke 18:27
God's statement to Adam and Eve 'the day you eat thereof you will surely die' is a statement of consequence as opposed to arbitrary judgement.
God does not require life for life....he is not beholden to man's system. As stated, Jesus, through who all things were made forgives without requiring anything. He forgives because it is his nature....a nature whose generosity has no comparison.
Justice is defined in scripture as liberation of the oppressed ...it is not defined as man would, ie a system of payback.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It not a salvation issue. You and I have talked about that before.
It is a belief issue. Christianity makes sense, it is not a religion of non-sense.
People that are paying attention maybe asking....
How can one God beget Himself? How does that work?
God the Father loves His Son. Does God the Father love Himself?
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....How does that work?
How can one God give Himself something?
God said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Was He pleased with Himself?
How can Christ say, He does the will of the Father if there is one will?
If there is one God, why didn't Christ know the end of time?
Christ did not have the authority to grant James and John's mother's request about the thrones.
Christ said, The Father is greater than I. Was He greater than Himself?
Christ refers to His Father in Heaven....two different places.
Our Father who aren't in Heaven.....The My Father verses in the Gospels....several of these.
Christ prays to His Father in the garden and ask if the cup could be lifted...Was He praying to Himself?
Man did not give Yahweh the designation of Father or Christ the designation of Son....Two distinct designation with positions of authority and seniority, assigned by God Himself so Man would understand.
Did we nail God the Father to a cross?
Did Christ cry out to Himself when He said, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
The ascend to the Father verses....Was He going to Himself?
Only one name can be called upon for salvation....Yeshua is that name, not Yahweh, not the Holy Spirit.
Christ said He had to leave for the Holy Spirit to come....if there is only one God....He is already there.
The unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit, if there is one God, how can you sin against one God more than the other?
Does belief in Yahweh save you? It never did before.
Dropping the one God formula for the Trinity answers a lot of questions and makes a lot scriptures make sense. Again Christianity is not a religion of non-sense. Non-sense does not mean it is of God. Old people juggle this stuff pretty good but for young people, if it makes no sense why would they buy into it?
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