Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

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veteran

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Of course that would be Satan himself. That's why many vehemently insist that there is no Hell. They are deceived ministers of Satan himself, sent to deceive others.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. [sup]15 [/sup]So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.




Yep! Now that's closer to my thread question about where such an unscriptural doctrine that hell and Satan don't exist originates. I didn't start this thread to be another debate on the existence of hell and Satan as real things per God's Word.

But I'm not yet willing to apply that 2 Cor.11 warning completely to the poster using the moniker of 'Truth', regardless of what falseness he says about me, you, or anyone that agrees with the Old and New Testament evidence that both hell and Satan do exist. Atheists deny the existence of God too, but their denial does nothing to disprove God's existence.


Ecumenicalism:

There's a political movement today against True Christian Doctrine per God's Word The Bible. Some Christians are being thrown in jail in the West just for reading The Bible in a public setting (a Christian minister in California the other day arrested by a state trooper of the California Highway Patrol, just for publically reading The Bible, not preaching).

Because of the political movement of Ecumenicalism (inter-faith joining of the world's religions together), some Churches are toning down their preaching directly from The Bible. Those Churches are actually inviting religious believers from other religions to come in and put on a show within their Churches. Lot of folks are dropping like flies away from true Bible-believing Christianity because of that.

I'm aware that the mystical fraternities also deny the literal existence of hell and Satan. Some of them instead are told that THIS world is what The Bible means by hell. That goes along with their purpose of teaching that one must do their own salvation by seeking literal perfection, like the Buddhist belief in Nirvana and reincarnation of the soul.

The eastern belief in reincarnation is in direct conflict with The Bible about a non-believer on Christ going to a literal place like hell after they die. So how can the Buddhist religion be joined with Christianity? It can't really, but that's exactly what those behind the Ecunemical movement are trying to do. Christian Doctrine directly from The Bible is in opposition to many.. beliefs of other religions.

One could maybe look at beliefs of other religions and paganism, compare those with Christian Bible Doctrine, and see where they might attack Christianity next. At the expense of Christ Jesus and His Word, the political movers trying to join all the world's religions together apparently see a need to remove any Christian Doctrine that does not balance with the religions of the world.

Afterall, those behind the movement to join all religions together most likely don't hold The Bible as truth anyway, not anymore than beliefs of other faiths of the world. They're passing laws against Bible preaching against homosexuality and against declaring Jesus as The Saviour, so maybe a law is forthcoming next that says we can't preach about hell nor Satan in trying to warn people? Do you think they're angry that so much fundamental Bible Christian Doctrine is making it through the smoke screens in Communist nations today through the Internet? Is the Biblical Truth that Christ Jesus is the Only Way of Salvation, and the Bible concept of a literal hell and Satan upsetting someone? I think it is, and it goes directly against what the workers of iniquity are trying to with joining all the world's religions together under one banner.

For a long time now, the mystical fraternities have pushed the concept of, "Liberty, equality, fraternity, brotherhood...", etc. Those organizations have members from most all nations, so naturally their members are taught not to favor any one religious faith over another. When our leaders get up before the microphone to address the people, and treat all religions as equals, then that's actually the mystical societies speaking.

For all the above reasons, and more, I believe it is those mystical fraternities of initiation where the doctrines of no hell and no Satan originates from on earth. Such a doctrine obviously has Satan behind it in the heavenly dimension. But on earth, that's where I believe such ideas are coming from concerning the "workers of iniquity". I know there's a lot of deceived folks in those mystical societies, so I cannot credit all of them with coming up with such unbiblical ideas. And since I've been exposing some of the mystical society's goals on this Forum (like the Illuminati thread), I wouldn't be surprised at all that some of their errand boys have made it here in an attempt to try to turn things back around. Good luck with that, I say. Jesus Christ is LORD.

 

Alethos

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Like everything else. God commands, and it is.

Never said worms have a soul. Like I said, they are special. They are for those in the eternal fire. God could have made them when He created Hell.

Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Ducky, they must be very "special" worms?


This stands as a clear message to all who believe in lies and have fallen away from truth. We see here the extent of the make believe, it reveals how far they will go to go to uphold thier false teachings.

We are now led to believe by Ducky that this place of eternal fire has worms which eat (what") i dont know?

One lie becomes another and then another and before long you are a lie.

Alethos

Question: Do you know where Christ is quoting from?
 

veteran

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The lake of Fire is not the same as the man-made HELL.
HEll was not ever mentioned by Christ.
HE said Gehenna and that is not the Lake of Fire. That's two different places.

You're so confused and really have no business arguing about scriptures..
You are more or less just defending what you've heard and read and you have no idea what you're talking about.
But you have the right to babel on and on.
it isn't against the rules.

about 20 years old?
Zealous but clueless.
Continue studying.


That only shows how poorly you know scripture.

God isn't saving people based on whether they believe in Hell or the Lake of Fire oh milk babe.
Its based on the acceptance of Christ as lord and savior.

Now if he kept people out of his kindom for not knowing something, it would be not knowing exactly what the gospel message was.
And you Duckybill don't seem to get it.
But fear not he isn't judging on that and on whether you believe in a everlasting torment in Hell..

please guys go read and study before embarrassing yourselves anymore.

Shalma


It would appear you need to do some Bible study for yourself...

Luke 16:23-26
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(KJV)


That was Jesus Christ The Saviour Who said that, which apparently you've missed that.

Unbelieving Jews try to twist that too, and say that Christ was only giving a parable, and didn't mean that kind of place in the heavenly really exists. That's basically calling Jesus a liar just for giving that Luke 16 example. Christ would not mislead us about that place where the rich man went to after he died.

It's not the English word "hell" in Scripture like the KJV that Biblically defines it as a real place, it's God's description of it like that example in Luke 16, showing a place of separation across a fixed border in the heavenly where the soul is in actual torment.


Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)


Rev 1:18
18 I am He That liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
(KJV)


Rev 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(KJV)




 

Foreigner

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Hell was not ever mentioned by Christ.


-- Really?

What The Lord Jesus Christ Says About Hell
"fire"Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41"everlasting fire"Matt 18:8, 25:41"eternal damnation"Mark 3:29"hell fire"Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47"damnation"Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47"damnation of hell"Matt 23:33"resurrection of damnation"John 5:29"furnace of fire"Matt 13:42, 50"the fire that never shall be quenched"Mark 9:43, 45"the fire is not quenched"Mark 9:44, 46, 48"Where their worm dieth not"Mark 9:44, 46, 48"wailing and gnashing of teeth"Matt 13:42, 50"weeping and gnashing of teeth"Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30"torments"Luke 16:23"tormented in this flame"Luke 16:24"place of torment"Luke 16:28"outer darkness"Matt 8:12, 22:13"everlasting punishment"Matt 25:46
This chart was copied from http://www.av1611.org


-- The simple fact is that Jesus spoke more about the danger of hell than the pleasures of heaven.
 

veteran

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Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, [sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."



That's an important verse Duckybill has quoted, for that event is NOT the later "lake of fire" that is set for the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.


So what is THAT particular "furnance of fire" place that's associated with the wailing and gnashing of teeth?


Matt 8:12
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


Matt 22:12-13
12 And he saith unto him, "Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?" And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(KJV)


Matt 24:50-51
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


Matt 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)


Luke 13:27-28
27 But he shall say, "I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity."
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
(KJV)


Just as there is a place of separation in the heavenly now where the wicked dead are, like Christ revealed in Luke 16, such a place will also exist when He returns and separates His sheep from the goats. The workers of iniquity goats are going to see themselves thrust out of The Kingdom.



 

Alethos

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So what is THAT particular "furnance of fire" place that's associated with the wailing and gnashing of teeth?

It is the knowledge of one who has squandered their talents during this probation period on earth. They have come to the realisation (like Judas) they will once again go the congregation of the dead. Prov 21:16. But this time forever!

Notice the theme "weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Ducky believes this evil spirit world has eternal worms, and now these suffering souls have teeth. :blink:

These teaching is utter foolishness!...sensationalisism at its foremost.

Ducky check out Isaiah 66:24 if you wanted to know where Jesus quoted the worms.

Fellow Christians - don’t be fooled by their make believe stories of immortal worms and gnashing of teeth in some unknown evil fiery abode. Its unfounded lies that emanate form men who are unknowingly "deceivers" of the innocent.

Protect your hearts from such evil for little do they know that one day their bodies will be like Job’s (Job 7:5)

Alethos

-- Really?
-- The simple fact is that Jesus spoke more about the danger of hell than the pleasures of heaven.

No you are right BUT Jesus himself went to Hell!

[sup]Acts 2:27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul (body) in hell (grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Where do bodies corrupt?

Yes the grave....Hell = Grave

If Veteran, Ducky or Foreigner try to say He (Jesus) went to this make believe evil spirit and had his soul afflicted three days, know this first...They Lie and there is no truth in them!

Alethos
 

Foreigner

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I am starting to chuckle more and more at Truth's posts.

He now fabricates a another person's stance on an issue and then calls THEM a liar. :lol:
 

veteran

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If Veteran, Ducky or Foreigner try to say He (Jesus) went to this make believe evil spirit and had his soul afflicted three days, know this first...They Lie and there is no truth in them!

Alethos

Soon enough, Alethos will be calling everyone a liar here. The simple reason is because of his adherence to doctrines from Talmudic Judaism, which of course is vehemently anti-Christian and anti-New Testament.


But didn't God through His Old Testament prophets already tell us about a holding place for the wicked dead, using the idea of a "pit"?

Isa 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
(KJV)

If the word "pit" (Hebrew bowr) only means a literal dug hole in the ground, then how is it those that see that one brought down to hell (Hebrew sheowl) will see that one and say that? Also, why is "pit" and "hell" being described separately in that Isaiah 14:15 verse, especially if both only refer to a dug hole in the ground? It's because God is describing the abode of the wicked in the heavenly like our Lord Jesus did in Luke 16 with His story about the rich man.


Are there other OT examples like this? Yes...


Isa 24:21-22
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
(KJV)

As prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison? Now we see a direct comparison with this particular "pit" (Hebrew bowr) as being like a "prison" (Hebrew macger). Is a prison where someone is locked up the same as having died and buried in the ground? No, instead a prison is a holding place where the sentenced is awaiting either release or death. Did you'all realize this type description of a pit as a prison is the same type as Revelation 20:3 & 7 about Satan being shut up in the bottomless pit as a prison? and the wicked angels of Jude 1 locked in chains until the judgment?

We see clearly that God addressed in The Old Testament prophets the concept of hell and the pit as a holding place for the wicked, awaiting His judgment, just like The New Testament does. We also see how those still with a vail over their minds disregard it completely.


Another example...


Zech 9:11
11 As for thee also, by the blood of Thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
(KJV)

The word "pit" is Hebrew bowr once again, and this time, it is described as a place where there is no water, like this...


Luke 16:22-24
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24
And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
(KJV)

That's The Old Testament prophets and New Testamnt witness by Christ agreeing together once again!

Do you think our Lord Jesus gave the Luke 16 example about Lazarus and the rich man to point the unbelieving Jews back to this in The Old Testament prophets?


Not all orthodox Jews refuse to believe that a real holding place in the heavenly for the wicked exists. But a lot of their teachers refuse to believe it.



 

Alethos

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When we are before Christ and He is seperating us into the sheep and the goats, I certainly hope I am not standing anywhere near Mr. Truth while he tries to tell Jesus, "But, but, but, in the ancient Greek it says..."


Foreigner, are you discouraging those from personal Bible Study?

Because of this comment I will "dig" deep into my archives and find a talk I was gave on Job 28. This chapter strangely enough is one of my favourite in all Scripture, as it speaks to those who diligently labour in His Word, who are not afraid to discover language and the various ways God has revealed His mind to mankind.

You may mock me for doing this, but who is the poorer?

Alethos John 5:39 Acts 17:11
 

Duckybill

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If Veteran, Ducky or Foreigner try to say He (Jesus) went to this make believe evil spirit and had his soul afflicted three days, know this first...They Lie and there is no truth in them!
How can any one person be this confused?

 

Alethos

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How can any one person be this confused?


Hi Ducky,

We have not meet but so many conversations, I have lost count.

Anyway, your comment reminds of the Lord when it was said of him 'he is mad...that he hath a devil... he is beside himself'... 'The zeal of Thine House hath eaten me up.'

He ended up being our example.

His determination and singlemindness was intense, well beyond the comprehension of the careless, common crowd.

In His Service

Alethos
 

veteran

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Anyone care to translate?



Really no use in trying to carry on an intelligent conversation with him. If you say the sky is blue, he'll say it's green only in spite. It's clear to me he has come here to push doctrines of Judaism to the deceived; that's where his secular humanist doctrine about Jesus originated, as also the denial of a literal place in the heavenly called 'hell'. But denial that Satan is a real entity, the unbelieving Jews did not originally deny that, since they accused Jesus of casting out demons by power of the devil (Matt.12:22-27, where Christ identified the chief evil spirit the Jews called Beelzebub as Satan).
 

Alethos

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Really no use in trying to carry on an intelligent conversation with him. If you say the sky is blue, he'll say it's green only in spite. It's clear to me he has come here to push doctrines of Judaism to the deceived; that's where his secular humanist doctrine about Jesus originated, as also the denial of a literal place in the heavenly called 'hell'. But denial that Satan is a real entity, the unbelieving Jews did not originally deny that, since they accused Jesus of casting out demons by power of the devil (Matt.12:22-27, where Christ identified the chief evil spirit the Jews called Beelzebub as Satan).[/size]

Feel free to speak directly to me Veteran.

This type of communication doesn’t place you both in a favourable light.

Flesh thinks it is "stronger" when it gangs up together that is with other fleshly supporters. Proverbs 1:11 will apply here.

The Master suffered greatly in this regard.

Alethos
 

Duckybill

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Off hand I can't think of anything that 'truth' believes/preaches in the Bible, except for "doctrines of demons".

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
 

Alethos

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Off hand I can't think of anything that 'truth' believes/preaches in the Bible, except for "doctrines of demons".

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

O to be like the Master in all ways.

Mark 3:20-23

[sup]22[/sup]And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

They called Jesus the Lord of the Flies..all becuase he was preaching and teaching truth.

What position do you place yourself in?

Alethos

 

Duckybill

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O to be like the Master in all ways.

Mark 3:20-23

[sup]22[/sup]And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

They called Jesus the Lord of the Flies..all becuase he was preaching and teaching truth.

What position do you place yourself in?
You don't know who your master is. It isn't Jesus.

 

Alethos

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You don't know who your master is. It isn't Jesus.

And yet I find myself being condemned by you on numerous times and in numerous ways (like the scribes) in the exact same way as they condemned Jesus? Matt 3:20-23

My teachings are as foreign to you as they were to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Jesus time. One must wonder after 2000 years of man meddling with the truth? Well I will leave it with you to connect the dots.

Alethos

 

Duckybill

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And yet I find myself being condemned by you on numerous times and in numerous ways (like the scribes) in the exact same way as they condemned Jesus? Matt 3:20-23
Not exactly. Jesus was teaching Truth. You preach doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 4:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

My teachings are as foreign to you as they were to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Jesus time. One must wonder after 2000 years of man meddling with the truth? Well I will leave it with you to connect the dots.

No they are not "foreign". I have read doctrines of demons before.