The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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brightfame52

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Scripture Teaches that He died specifically for the Church !

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it[The Church];

There's simply not a more clearer declaration of scripture, that specifically designates the Church as the Object of Christs Love [See Jn 15:9,12-13] and this indicates that the disciples of Christ were part of His Church He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25 , and His Church in Eph 5:25 is compared to a Wife, for Vs 25 comes at the heel of Eph 5:23-24

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Which Indicates that the Church is Christ's Wife, He is its Head, as the husband to the wife, this is true, or what purpose would this Illustration serve ?

This also confirms that Christ gave Himself as a Head of the Church, His Wife.
 

brightfame52

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'I exhort therefore, that, first of all,
supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority;
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life
in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved,
and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave Himself a ransom for all,
to be testified in due time.'

(1 Timothy 2:1-6)

Hello @brightfame52.

With respect, in using the verses you have quoted to maintain that the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for all without exception, you are falling into error.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris
You not hearing scripture !
 

Kermos

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Why won't you address my question though? You don't seem to understand the difference between buying a slave and setting one free. His blood was the basis for our redemption but he didn't use his blood as money to buy us. Right?

Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Christ did buy us, His disciples, with His Blood unto God's ownership of we slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

Peter wrote "knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" (1 Peter 1:18-19).

Christ did redeem us, His disciples, with His precious Blood.

The word "redemption" means unencumbered ownership.

You do not understand that freedom in Christ for His disciples is truly "free from the punishment for sin" (Matthew 20:28).

The Word of God proved your point wrong before you even wrote your post.

Lord Jesus sets "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) free from the punishment for sin (Matthew 20:28); therefore the Word of God buys "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Since Christ is the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we disciples of Christ are slaves of Christ the Righteousness One because He bought us with His precious Blood (1 Corinthians 6:20).

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!
 
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Kermos

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I was commenting on the opening post.
When one begins a statement with, " I believe, I see, I understand," I feel that I am given the freedom have my own opinion about something, while considering what was said. I find it helpful.
When a statement is put forth that essentially says, "This is how it is" (even if it is so), I have a natural tendency to get defensive, if I haven't thought it through and agree.
In reality, saying "the myth of saying..." is no more, no less, than one person's opinion.
I'm not trying to criticize here, just suggesting a way to communicate that reduces friction among members.

The Word of God is true (John 14:6).

Christ did not die for everyone everywhere in all time.

If Christ had died for everyone everywhere in all time, then He failed to protect all for whom He died from the wrath of God.

Truly, Christ does save all for whom He died (John 10:27-29), this "all" is exclusively Jesus Christ's chosen persons with no choice invoked by man (John 15:16).

The Word of God is true!
 

Truman

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The Word of God is true (John 14:6).

Christ did not die for everyone everywhere in all time.

If Christ had died for everyone everywhere in all time, then He failed to protect all for whom He died from the wrath of God.

Truly, Christ does save all for whom He died (John 10:27-29), this "all" is exclusively Jesus Christ's chosen persons with no choice invoked by man (John 15:16).

The Word of God is true!
You have your opinion, I have mine. He chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. He knows who is going to come to Him. If everybody would come, He would not turn anyone away. IMO We have a difference of opinion...can we please agree to disagree?
 

Kermos

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'For whom He did foreknow,
.. He also did predestinate
.... to be conformed to the image of His Son,
...... that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
.. them He also called:
.... and whom He called,
...... them He also justified:
........ and whom He justified,
.......... them He also glorified.'
(Romans 8:29-30)
Hello @Kermos
We must not forget that God has foreknowledge, and that foreknowledge comes before predestination. God foreknows who will believe on Him, so He is able, as in the verses above, to pre-destinate them. To what? - 'To be conformed to the image of His Son' (in the context of Romans 8:29-30). Those Whom He so predestinates, He also calls and whom He calls He justifies, and also glorifies.
Pre-destination can be done because of foreknowledge.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Let's marvel at Romans 8:29:
  • An event which Creator God knows of the occurrence before the event occurs cannot be avoided by creature man (Job 42:2).
  • The opening two premises are true, yet Paul does not express sequence:
    • The first premise is "For whom He did foreknow".
    • The second premise is "He also did predestinate".
    • Notice a word indicating sequence, such as "then", is absent from the second premise.
  • Paul does not convey that man exercises a free will choice in this passage.
Since God knowing things beforehand is perfect, then man has no choice in the matter. God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35).

Since Paul wrote "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29), then Paul expresses that both God's foreknowledge and God's predestination indicate God causes the events of man - not man doing something - not even a choice - see the cascade of "He" for God in Romans 8:29-30).

Since you wrote "foreknowledge comes before predestination" by which you express sequence, then you add "then" into scripture.

In effect, your heart's thought is "For whom He did foreknow, THEN He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (the word of @charity).

But wait, there is more, you make the passage to include a purported man's control - man's free will choosing of Jesus.

In effect, your heart's thought is "For whom He did foreknow, THEN He BY MAN'S FREEWILL CHOOSING JESUS also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (the word of @charity).

You wickedly add to scripture.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

The Truth is that Christ did not die for everyone everywhere in all time.

The Truth (John 14:6) is Christ died for Christ's chosen persons (John 10:27-29, John 15:16, John 15:19).
 
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Kermos

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You have your opinion, I have mine. He chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. He knows who is going to come to Him. If everybody would come, He would not turn anyone away. IMO We have a difference of opinion...can we please agree to disagree?

Man's opinion does not save man from the wrath of God.

The Word of God saves man from the wrath of God.

The Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Therefore, God says that a person who comes to Christ is manifest as having been wrought in God.

"Wrought in God", not "wrought in man, but truly "wrought in God".

If you claim that you come to Jesus under your own free will, then you deny the Word of God.
 

Truman

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Man's opinion does not save man from the wrath of God.

The Word of God saves man from the wrath of God.

The Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Therefore, God says that a person who comes to Christ is manifest as having been wrought in God.

"Wrought in God", not "wrought in man, but truly "wrought in God".

If you claim that you come to Jesus under your own free will, then you deny the Word of God.
I'm assured of my salvation...you have your opinion and I have mine...let's leave it at that, alright, brother?
 

MatthewG

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The wrath of God was dished out in 70ad upon the chosen nation of Israel It’s done and over finished. Praise be to God and the Lord Jesus Christ!
 

charity

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Let's marvel at Romans 8:29:
  • An event which Creator God knows of the occurrence before the event occurs cannot be avoided by creature man (Job 42:2).
  • The opening two premises are true, yet Paul does not express sequence:
    • The first premise is "For whom He did foreknow".
    • The second premise is "He also did predestinate".
    • Notice a word indicating sequence, such as "then", is absent from the second premise.
  • Paul does not convey that man exercises a free will choice in this passage.
Since God knowing things beforehand is perfect, then man has no choice in the matter. God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35).

Since Paul wrote "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29), then Paul expresses that both God's foreknowledge and God's predestination indicate God causes the events of man - not man doing something - not even a choice - see the cascade of "He" for God in Romans 8:29-30).

Since you wrote "foreknowledge comes before predestination" by which you express sequence, then you add "then" into scripture.

In effect, your heart's thought is "For whom He did foreknow, THEN He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (the word of @charity).

But wait, there is more, you make the passage to include a purported man's control - man's free will choosing of Jesus.

In effect, your heart's thought is "For whom He did foreknow, THEN He BY MAN'S FREEWILL CHOOSING JESUS also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (the word of @charity).

You wickedly add to scripture.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

The Truth is that Christ did not die for everyone everywhere in all time.

The Truth (John 14:6) is Christ died for Christ's chosen persons (John 10:27-29, John 15:16, John 15:19).
'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @Kermos,

I stand by what is written in the verse above, and lay the accusations you have made of me before the Lord: for He alone can make righteous judgements.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris
 

CadyandZoe

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Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Christ did buy us, His disciples, with His Blood unto God's ownership of we slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

Peter wrote "knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ" (1 Peter 1:18-19).

Christ did redeem us, His disciples, with His precious Blood.

The word "redemption" means unencumbered ownership.

You do not understand that freedom in Christ for His disciples is truly "free from the punishment for sin" (Matthew 20:28).

The Word of God proved your point wrong before you even wrote your post.

Lord Jesus sets "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) free from the punishment for sin (Matthew 20:28); therefore the Word of God buys "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Since Christ is the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we disciples of Christ are slaves of Christ the Righteousness One because He bought us with His precious Blood (1 Corinthians 6:20).

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!
You still didn't answer the question. Do you understand the question?
 

brightfame52

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Scripture Teaches that He died specifically for the Church !2

Now with this in Mind, we must understand the preexisting Union of Christ with His Church when He died for her, His Wife was in Him before her manifestation out of Him, as Was eve in Adam before her manifestation out of him, and as the bride and wife of the first Adam was always in him, so Likewise was the Bride and Wife of the Second/Last Adam was always in Him, and this is that which constituted that Legal Bond, by which her sins were charged to her Husband her Head.

For it is by this legal union and transaction any Saint, OT or NT could have their sins charged to Christ, they would have to of the Wife the Church. The OT Saints and Prophets Looked to Christ the Head who was to come, as Isaiah did Isa 53:5-6

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him[Christ the Head of the Church] the iniquity of us all[His Body and Wife the Church].

If the OT Saint here was not Part of the Church Christ Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25, then there had been no legal ground for Isaiah's iniquities to have been laid to the charge of Christ[1 Cor 15:3], and he would be excluded from his own prophecy in Isa 53:5-6 ! So scripture teaches that He died specifically for His Church !
 

MatthewG

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Everybody went to hell before Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose again. Then everyone after that all were justified.

Everyone since the day God poured out his wrath on the nation of Israel have been justified by the blood shed of Christ. Saving them from death, Satan, hell, grace the demons, even their sins.

The greatest sin is disbelief however you can not be saved to the kingdom of God without faith on the Lord Jesus Christ in this Life, his death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus died for all people. There are many scriptures to support this. If it wasnt for the Jewish people we would never have had a messiah to begin with, thankfully God chosen Abraham to bring for a nation named Israel that had 12 tribes. And because of all these things we have the Bible that gives us knowledge in what it says about these things.

@brightfame52 i would agree with you there being a bride that was chosen by God that was made for Jesus to have before the destruction of Jerusalem came. However Jesus death, burial, and resurrection still recovered everything lost in the Garden. All Jewish and Gentiles alike to be saved by and through faith in the Gospel of Christ.

Is this how you view it or no?
 
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Kermos

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I'm assured of my salvation...you have your opinion and I have mine...let's leave it at that, alright, brother?

You conveyed that people's freewill causes people to come to Christ apart from being wrought in God according to your writings.

Lord Jesus says a person coming to Christ is wrought in God for the Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT COME TO CHRIST ARE PEOPLE WHOSE DEED OF COMING TO CHRIST IS WROUGHT IN GOD - NOT ONE MORE - NOT ONE LESS.

A person who denies the Word of God does not have salvation.

I rely wholly on the Word of God for the Word is the power of God for salvation (Romans 1:16). By God's grace, I have the Word of God.

You rely on your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9). You have the word of Truman.
 

Truman

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You conveyed that people's freewill causes people to come to Christ apart from being wrought in God according to your writings.

Lord Jesus says a person coming to Christ is wrought in God for the Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT COME TO CHRIST ARE PEOPLE WHOSE DEED OF COMING TO CHRIST IS WROUGHT IN GOD - NOT ONE MORE - NOT ONE LESS.

A person who denies the Word of God does not have salvation.

I rely wholly on the Word of God for the Word is the power of God for salvation (Romans 1:16). By God's grace, I have the Word of God.

You rely on your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9). You have the word of Truman.
I'm not quite sure of what, "wrought in God," means, though I do know that your judgement of me means nothing to me. Shalom.
 

Kermos

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'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @Kermos,

I stand by what is written in the verse above, and lay the accusations you have made of me before the Lord: for He alone can make righteous judgements.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

The Lord caused me to carefully present to you the crime of you adding to scripture in Romans 8:29.

To recap, you conveyed "For whom He did foreknow, THEN He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (the word of @charity's heart).

The Apostle Paul wrote "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29).

When your heart added to scripture, then you lied.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.
 

TEXBOW

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I enjoy an honest debate with the purpose of strengthening all parties' understanding. We never stop learning. BUT I see no purpose in entertaining outlandish false doctrine. In fact, I should be made to stand in the corner on one leg for even giving them my time. Over and Out.
 

BloodBought 1953

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Everybody went to hell before Jesus Christ died on the Cross and rose again. Then everyone after that all were justified.

Everyone since the day God poured out his wrath on the nation of Israel have been justified by the blood shed of Christ. Saving them from death, Satan, hell, grace the demons, even their sins.

The greatest sin is disbelief however you can not be saved to the kingdom of God without faith on the Lord Jesus Christ in this Life, his death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus died for all people. There are many scriptures to support this. If it wasnt for the Jewish people we would never have had a messiah to begin with, thankfully God chosen Abraham to bring for a nation named Israel that had 12 tribes. And because of all these things we have the Bible that gives us knowledge in what it says about these things.

@brightfame52 i would agree with you there being a bride that was chosen by God that was made for Jesus to have before the destruction of Jerusalem came. However Jesus death, burial, and resurrection still recovered everything lost in the Garden. All Jewish and Gentiles alike to be saved by and through faith in the Gospel of Christ.

Is this how you view it or no?



Well said.....the Price has been paid for every sin that was ever committed or will ever “ be” committed.....what is left for us to do ? Simply “ Cash In” to what was already accomplished FOR us at the Cross.....How does one “ cash in?” Faith in the Gospel Found In 1Cor15:1-4.....God bless...
 
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Kermos

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You still didn't answer the question. Do you understand the question?

The Apostle Paul wrote "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

Behold, "transferred" is Lord Jesus sets "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) free from the punishment for sin (Matthew 20:28); therefore the Word of God buys "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Since Christ is the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we disciples of Christ are slaves of Christ the Righteousness One because He bought us with His precious Blood (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!
 

Kermos

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I'm not quite sure of what, "wrought in God," means, though I do know that your judgement of me means nothing to me. Shalom.

Wrought means forged and molded and fabricated and produced and manufactured and caused.

The phrase "wrought in God" is essentially "caused by God".

The Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

The ONLY persons that come to Christ are persons whose deed of coming to Christ is wrought in God, not one less person, not one more person.

Your free-willian philosophy of a person coming to Christ apart from God tacitly denies the Word of God.