Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

veteran · Jun 29, 2011

Jesus speaking said...

Luke 16:22-23
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell (haides) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(KJV)

brionne · Jun 29, 2011

aspen said:
Dante's Inferno was published before the KJV was published - the doctrine of Hell has been around for a long time.

Yes it has. Among the pagan religions of Babylon and Egypt. Was God for or against those religions? Were not they deemed 'false religions' with 'false gods' by God himself?

If their religion was false, then their teachings were also false.

Duckybill · Jun 29, 2011

wayofthespirit said:
Do we accept the Pagan interpretation?

Jesus wasn't Pagan. The NT clearly teaches punishment in the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[sup]41 [/sup]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
[sup]46 [/sup]And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

belantos · Jul 6, 2011

Truth said:
Hell in the Old Testament - Facts

The word 'hell' appears thirty one times in the AV of the Old Testament:

(Deut 32:22; 2 Sam. 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; ; Isa 5:14; 14:9,15; 28:15,18; 57:9; Eze 31:16,17; 32:21,27; Amos 9:2; Jon 2:2; Hab 2:5; Psa 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Prov 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11,24; 23:14; 27:20).

You may be surprised that in the RSV of the Old Testament the word 'hell' does not appear in any of these above verses.

However, in its place is the Hebrew word 'Sheol'. What does Sheol mean?

Sheol means "a hollow and subterranean place, full of thick darkness".

The NIV of the Old Testament does not use 'Sheol' or 'hell' in any of these verses, rather 'grave', 'death' or 'the depths'.

In none of these verses is “sheol” associated with the idea of a place of torment or punishment.

“Sheol” indicates a complete lack of conscious thought or deliberate action there e.g

"For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave [sheol] who shall give Thee thanks?" (Psa 6:5);

"there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol]" (Eccl 9:10);

"the grave [sheol] cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth" (Isa 38:18).

'Hell' in the AV of the Old Testament is to be understood as referring to that place to which all are gathered at death.

The grave.

Correct! The doctrine of souls being tortured in hell was adopted from Pagan ideas.

veteran · Jul 6, 2011

belantos said:
Correct! The doctrine of souls being tortured in hell was adopted from Pagan ideas.

FALSE.

The false idea that there is no place of torment after flesh death, and that sheowl is meant as nothing but a hole in the ground is from the false Jew's religion of Phariseeic Judaism.

Jesus of Nazareth especially gave the following example of hell to counter the false religious traditions of the Pharisees which instead believed death resulted in a type of nothingness afterwards...

Luke 16:22-31
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
27 Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
29 Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
30 And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
31 And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
(KJV)

logabe · Aug 21, 2011

veteran said:
FALSE.

The false idea that there is no place of torment after flesh death, and that sheowl is meant as nothing but a hole in the ground is from the false Jew's religion of Phariseeic Judaism.

Jesus of Nazareth especially gave the following example of hell to counter the false religious traditions of the Pharisees which instead believed death resulted in a type of nothingness afterwards...

Luke 16:22-31
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
25 But Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
27 Then he said, "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."
29 Abraham saith unto him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
30 And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
31 And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
(KJV)

That's all Jesus can do? That's a pretty weak Jesus.
How can Jesus be victorious if he just saves a few
folk.

Poor pitiful Jesus... the first Adam did a lot more damage
than Jesus done good. Adam brought the WHOLE CREATION
down but, Jesus can only save you and a few more folk
that believe like you do.

That is so sad and silly to think the God of the Universe is
so weak that he can do nothing to change man's mind. Well,
I guess we will see in the end that Jesus was the Savior of the
world yet he could only save a few.

In Isaiah 45:23 God says,

23 “I have sworn by Myself . . . that unto Me
every knee will bow and every tongue will
swear allegiance to Me.”

Jesus tried to get them to but the carnal mind was just to
strong.

The question is this: Is God able to fulfill this oath, or is it
an idle boast?

Col. 1:16 tells us,

16 that “by Him were all things created, that are
in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and
invisible . . . all things were created by Him and
for Him.”

Then a few verses later in verse 20, we read that Jesus Christ,
by His death on the cross, “has reconciled all things unto
himself . . . whether they are things in earth or things in heaven.”

He not only created all things, but He also has reconciled all things
to Himself. His death on the cross was not merely effective for a
few, but for the whole of creation. It is not slated for destruction,
but to house the glory of God.

John's vision in Rev. 5:13, “and every creature which is in heaven and
on the earth and under the earth, and all that are in the sea, and all that
are in them, I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor, and glory, and power
be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb [Jesus]
for the ages of the ages'.”

This is a picture of the goal of history and the divine plan for His creation
No one will be grumbling that a tyrant has come to power and ought
to be overthrown. All will know the love that God has for them and for
all mankind. It is a happy scene. There are no tortured screams coming
from an imagined pit of hell.

Logabe

veteran · Aug 21, 2011

logabe said:
That's all Jesus can do? That's a pretty weak Jesus.
How can Jesus be victorious if he just saves a few
folk.

Poor pitiful Jesus... the first Adam did a lot more damage
than Jesus done good. Adam brought the WHOLE CREATION
down but, Jesus can only save you and a few more folk
that believe like you do.

That is so sad and silly to think the God of the Universe is
so weak that he can do nothing to change man's mind. Well,
I guess we will see in the end that Jesus was the Savior of the
world yet he could only save a few.

In Isaiah 45:23 God says,

23 “I have sworn by Myself . . . that unto Me
every knee will bow and every tongue will
swear allegiance to Me.”

Jesus tried to get them to but the carnal mind was just to
strong.

The question is this: Is God able to fulfill this oath, or is it
an idle boast?

Col. 1:16 tells us,

16 that “by Him were all things created, that are
in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and
invisible . . . all things were created by Him and
for Him.”

Then a few verses later in verse 20, we read that Jesus Christ,
by His death on the cross, “has reconciled all things unto
himself . . . whether they are things in earth or things in heaven.”

He not only created all things, but He also has reconciled all things
to Himself. His death on the cross was not merely effective for a
few, but for the whole of creation. It is not slated for destruction,
but to house the glory of God.

John's vision in Rev. 5:13, “and every creature which is in heaven and
on the earth and under the earth, and all that are in the sea, and all that
are in them, I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor, and glory, and power
be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb [Jesus]
for the ages of the ages'.”

This is a picture of the goal of history and the divine plan for His creation
No one will be grumbling that a tyrant has come to power and ought
to be overthrown. All will know the love that God has for them and for
all mankind. It is a happy scene. There are no tortured screams coming
from an imagined pit of hell.

Logabe

Wait a little while longer, for the end of this world is near, and then you can say that to Jesus' face.

Prentis · Aug 21, 2011

Where is the humility and brotherly love?

We fight over doctrines as though WE knew better than everyone. If only we knew, if we DO in fact know more, we are more responsible, and are to speak the truth in LOVE.

This is not to someone in specific, but to all. I see so much self assurance and pride in our responses, what will the Lord say when we meet him?

veteran · Aug 21, 2011

Prentis said:
Where is the humility and brotherly love?

We fight over doctrines as though WE knew better than everyone. If only we knew, if we DO in fact know more, we are more responsible, and are to speak the truth in LOVE.

This is not to someone in specific, but to all. I see so much self assurance and pride in our responses, what will the Lord say when we meet him?

Better question would be, what will He say to the 'fence-riders' who don't make a stand in His Word?

Actually, He already warned us about those didn't He, about those who have lost their saltiness and are lukewarm. There's still a battle going on today if you haven't noticed. Christ didn't say He came to bring peace for this time, but a sword. His Kingdom is NOT established here on earth just yet.

Prentis · Aug 21, 2011

Yes. Only you fight over the wrong things. The Kingdom is entered by faith, and in Christ we overcome. We overcome this world and it's lust.

If one be faithfull in Christ, he needs not to worry about rapture, genealogies, and such things. He need only worry that he is a good servant of his master. If the Lord send him with a message, with a dream, with a vision, or whatever may be, then he must deliever it. The Spirit is the one who decides.

I fear our Christianity is based far too much on what we can get and understand of the scriptures, and far too little on how we can surrender our lives to God to become a tool in his hands.

The Lord himself will save us, and our own striving to find how things will happen cannot help us. We need to submit ourselves and serve, and by his hand will we be delivered.

veteran · Aug 21, 2011

Prentis said:
Yes. Only you fight over the wrong things. The Kingdom is entered by faith, and in Christ we overcome. We overcome this world and it's lust.

If one be faithfull in Christ, he needs not to worry about rapture, genealogies, and such things. He need only worry that he is a good servant of his master. If the Lord send him with a message, with a dream, with a vision, or whatever may be, then he must deliever it. The Spirit is the one who decides.

I fear our Christianity is based far too much on what we can get and understand of the scriptures, and far too little on how we can surrender our lives to God to become a tool in his hands.

The Lord himself will save us, and our own striving to find how things will happen cannot help us. We need to submit ourselves and serve, and by his hand will we be delivered.

You don't know me well enough to assume to know what I fight over. You're getting outside your realm of influence Christ has partitioned for you when you say things like that in misjudging what you know not of.

If you truly were in His Word like your supposed to be, you wouldn't say things like we're not to be concerned over those doctrines you mention. You're deluding yourself with religious fervor instead of preparing to make a stand for Christ in the times ahead by staying in His Word concerning prophecy of the end.

Prentis · Aug 21, 2011

The Lord bless you, veteran

logabe · Aug 21, 2011

Prentis said:
Where is the humility and brotherly love?

We fight over doctrines as though WE knew better than everyone. If only we knew, if we DO in fact know more, we are more responsible, and are to speak the truth in LOVE.

This is not to someone in specific, but to all. I see so much self assurance and pride in our responses, what will the Lord say when we meet him?

You're right Prentis... I got a little carried away. I still
Love Veteran, it's just his doctrine that really get's my
brotherly love in turmoil.

The difference between me and Veteran is, Veteran
believes if I don't meet his requirements I am going
to hell. I believe if Veteran doesn't meet my requirements
he will still make it in the Kingdom.

My point was... many believe that the present situation is so
far gone that even God cannot reverse it and will have to
destroy the earth. The story of Jonah seems to indicate
otherwise. It would be wise to examine our hearts to be sure
that we would rejoice with God, were He to be the Savior of the
world, rather than its destroyer. Remember what God told Jonah
in 4:10 and 11,

10 Then the LORD said, You had compassion on the
plant for which you did not work, and which you did
not cause to grow, which came up overnight and
perished overnight.
11 And should I not have compassion on Nineveh,
the great city in which there are more than 120,000
persons who do not know the difference between
their right and left hand, as well as many animals?

God is pointing out a heart problem in Jonah. We must
be careful that we do not allow ourselves to have the
same attitude.

Logabe

ron · Aug 22, 2011

Prentis said:
Yes. Only you fight over the wrong things. The Kingdom is entered by faith, and in Christ we overcome. We overcome this world and it's lust.

If one be faithfull in Christ, he needs not to worry about rapture, genealogies, and such things. He need only worry that he is a good servant of his master. If the Lord send him with a message, with a dream, with a vision, or whatever may be, then he must deliever it. The Spirit is the one who decides.

I fear our Christianity is based far too much on what we can get and understand of the scriptures, and far too little on how we can surrender our lives to God to become a tool in his hands.

The Lord himself will save us, and our own striving to find how things will happen cannot help us. We need to submit ourselves and serve, and by his hand will we be delivered.

You are wise for you age.....praise God!

-Aspen

Insight · Aug 22, 2011

wayofthespirit said:
'Truth' seems to be on much the same page as me on the question of 'Hell'

The word ‘Hell’ did not exist in the days when the scriptures were written.

It didn’t emerge until the KJV took three completely dissimilar words and loosely translated each of them to mean something that medieval paganism had invented and labelled as ‘Hell’

The Youngs Literal translation uses only the three original words.

The simple one to understand is the word Hades (Sheol in the Old Testament Hebrew) meaning the ‘Grave’ (used 11 times in the New Testament)

The one which is of greatest significance to us is ‘Gehenna (used 12 times in the new testament)

Of the twelve instances where Gehenna is used, one can discount James 3:6 (which is likening it to man’s tongue) and concentrate on the other 11 (all found only in the Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Gospels)

So I give them below so that readers can carefully consider what the writers were meaning when they likened something to Gehenna.

Each of the writers was Jewish.
Each of the writers knew perfectly well what Hades (Sheol in Hebrew) meant.
None had ever heard of ‘Hell’.

All they knew was the Jewish legend of a geographical site named Gehenna (or the Valley of Hinnom) which was one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City of Jerusalem, where idolatrous Jews sacrificed their children to the god Molech, and where the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and rubbish, were all cast and consumed by a constant fire. (probably the combustive heat of decomposition)

So here are all of the eleven quotes.

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:15
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43
Mark 9:45
Mark 9:47
Luke 12:5

The odd man out is Tartarus, used only once in 2Peter 2:4
Eventually in Jewish tradition Gehenna became the image of the place of everlasting destruction with a 'gate' which led down to a molten lake of fire.
And that is what was referred to as Tartarus and is what John would have been remembering when he wrote Revelation

I suggest that the Gospel writers were not talking of a Literal ‘Gehenna’ but had to be talking symbolically of something that they assumed existed without knowing of its details.

Do we accept the Pagan interpretation?

Or do we leave the unknown in the hands of God?

God to you, is how you see him.

Penal, vengeful, and barbaric, raising someone from the dead in order to torment them for eternity, if you must.

Certainly the dogmas of the wise and prudent are all here present...other than above-stated truth.

When God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of lives, say they, he imparted to him a particle of his own Essence, immaterial, and of course, of a nature kindred to himself, and this they style the immortal soul.

If this be true, what was it that sinned against God?

A particle of God sinned against Himself! What became liable to the pains of hell forever?

The immortal soul!

Then a particle of God became liable to the pains of hell forever!

Does the immortal soul in rebelling against the law of God show that it is of a kindred nature to the Deity?

What is subjected to glowing torments in hell forever?

The immortal soul, say ye!

Then God consigns a part of Himself to eternal misery for disobeying his own appointments. If this be wisdom, it is certainly that wisdom, which the scripture describes as "earthly, sensual, and devilish."

Foreigner · Aug 22, 2011

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’

-- Either you believe Jesus' own words on the topic, or you don't.

Insight · Aug 22, 2011

Foreigner said:
-- Either you believe Jesus' own words on the topic, or you don't.

No, I believe.

Insight · Aug 22, 2011

The dogma of the immortality of the soul necessitates a change of the words of the Spirit from their proper
to a figurative signification

It is well known, that death, destruction, corruption, perdition, etc, are all predicated of man in the scripture; and are often spoken of in connection with the events of a period subsequent to the present life. The literal and proper signification of these words is extinction of being. But, if apart of man, which is of a kindred nature to the Deity, and therefore indestructible and undying, is to be the subject of death, destruction, corruption, and perdition, it is manifest, that the meaning of these words must be changed from their proper signification to some other, so as to suit the theory; for, an undying soul cannot die, therefore when it is said "the soul that sinneth it shall die" must be understood to mean 'shall live in torment.'

Again, an indestructible soul cannot be destroyed; hence, when it is written of wicked souls, 'whose end is-destruction", it must be understood to mean "whose end is to be always destroying, but never destroyed." Again, an incorruptible soul can never be corrupt; when therefore, it says, "he that soweth to the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption," it follows, seeing that all souls are incorruptible, that they shall never corrupt; no, not even be tainted with corruption, for then the soul would prove to be mortal.

If then, death means life in misery, and destruction, eternal life in torment, by the same experts here, life means Life in happiness, and immortality, life. For, if life and incorruptibility be predicated of an everliving soul, it is clear, that life must have some accessory idea to make the scripture harmonize with the opinions of men. Hence according to theory of the dogmatists, the eis anastasin zoes which occurs in John 5:29 must not be rendered "to resurrection of life" but “resurrection to enjoy life" because, according to their theory, the soul is living before resurrection, so that resurrection with them is not in order that a man may live, but that being alive his soul may be united with the dust; so that being clothed it may enjoy life.

But, if man have no constitutional or magnetic, qualities, but such as are common to him with all animals, which the scripture plainly teaches, then death, destruction, corruption, etc; incorruptibility, etc, when spoken in reference to his destiny, all have their literal and proper signification. We do not mean to say, that these words are never used figuratively; they are frequently so used.

When a living man is said to be "dead in trespasses and sins" or when it is said, "let the dead bury the dead," it needs no uncommon rationality to perceive, that there is a metaphorical as well as a literal sense to the word 'dead,'' etc; but whether literally or figuratively used their relative connection must determine.

ron · Aug 22, 2011

I think people who have exalted the Bible to a place that is not consistent with the first 1500 centuries of Christianity, may see people who do not as denying the Bible. Instead, some Christians who have respect for Tradition are rejecting sola scriptura, not the Bible.

Believing that Jesus used stories to instruct His audiences is not a denial of the Bible.

Believing that allegory and myth were used in an inspired manner to communicate God's message is not a denial of the Bible.

Yep, I am back!

-Aspen

Duckybill · Aug 22, 2011

I think people who don't like what God said charge Him with Authoring myths.

Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

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