Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

'The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (Michael,) and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise... 1 Thess 4:15

From these Scriptures the things following are apparent; first, that Jesus is to come again to the place of his departure, which was Mount Olivet; second, that his appearing will be as (personal, and therefore visible, as his ascension to heaven; third, he comes to earth to receive his Apostles, & company who will be fashioned like to the body of his glory; and to raise the dead who sleep in him, when he will recompense them, according to his promise.

But, if the 'science' of Hymeneus and Philetus be true, the re-appearance of Jesus is unnecessary; for his Apostles, upon their hypothesis, have been in heaven with the Lord for nearly 2000 years; they are already 'sublimated' bodies around the throne: so are the dead; these go to Jesus and wait not for him to come to them!!

Jesus ought to have said, I go to prepare a place for you. And I do this, when you die you shall come to me; that where I am, ye may also be. He should also have said, 'whosoever shall be ashamed of me, of him will I be ashamed when his immortal soul comes to me at death! He should have said likewise, 'thou shalt be recompensed at the translation of your immortal soul to the everlasting region of light.

This would better suit the theologians and mysticists of our current age.

But this would not be truth.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:3

Hence the spiritualists in 2 Tim 2:18 saw this clearly, and therefore they concluded, that all the resurrection there would be had " passed already." If Hymeneus and Philetus were correct in their views of immortal souls, and their direct translation to heaven at death, they were right in affirming that "there is no resurrection of the dead;' but "thetruth" averred the resurrection of the dead, their hypotheses were "profane vain babblings" indeed, and "oppositions" to the truth, "of science falsely so called:" for, the annunciation of a resurrection of the dead to life, plainly teaches a previous interruption of man's existence for a time and a subsequent renewal thereof.

Illustrative of the view of the case of these errorists, I adduce the following fact. Justin Martyr who was contemporary with the Apostle John, terstifies that in the primitive Church:

THEY HOLD THOSE NOT TO BE CHRISTIANS, WHO MAINTAINED THAT SOULS ARE RECEIVED INTO HEAVEN IMMEDIATELY AFTER DEATH.

You did believe what I declared to you concerning the resurrection of Jesus, who was the "first fruits," or earnest of that great harvest of the dead, which is yet to come. But if there be no future harvest, then there are no fruits: for the 'first fruits' argues a harvest in the field waiting to be reaped.

Now, if souls are immortal, and go to heaven at death, there remains in the soil only perished seed, which will never yield an increase; there is no waiting harvest—no resurrection of the dead. And, if there be no harvest of the dead, there can be no first fruits, and therefore, Jesus did not rise, but must either have perished, or gone to the everlasting region of light, according to the science and vain philosophy of the Gentiles.

These dogmas in like manner render of none effect the apostolic and Christian doctrine of the judgement. If wicked immortal souls go to the Devil, or to Hell, or the instant of their demise, they are already judged!!!

What more can be done with them?

Would you bring them back from hell to judge them! Suppose you do, what sentence would you pass upon them more severe than they have been suffering for thousands of years? It would be a superfluous operation first to send them to hell, then to bring them back again, and lastly, to remand them to the eternal flame.

God is reasonable, and does nothing which is wanton, useless, or superfluous, and such a proceeding as this is all these. The dogma of Hymeneua and Philetus render a resurrection to judgement unnecessary, and as absurd as needless: there is no alternative but to abandon immortal soulism with all its consequents, or the doctrine, that they which have done evil shall come out of their graves to a resurrection of judgement.— John 5:20,21,22,23,24,25

jiggyfly said:

Many will go to hell for purging and correction. Will you go to hell? Well I don't like to judge people but since you asked I would say it is highly probable.

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You don't like to but you do it anyway?

We have been over this several times it is a misinterpretation of the Greek text.

Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; Matt. 25:41 YLT

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If you are right then our English Bibles are trash. Forever, everlasting, eternal, unquenchable... Really Jiggy.

Insight said:

...if souls go to heaven, etc. when the breath departs from the nostrils, what use is there in resurrection? Manifestly none!

​

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If the souls don't go to heaven,how can the below be true

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.





I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot.

http://www.theseason.org/1thess/1thess4.htm

If Col 3:3KJV is to occur when we are alive, how much more when we sleep?...for not all are hid in Christ, and not all will sleep. Only those who are in Christ, sleep.

1 Cor 11:30KJV (not all are asleep)1 Cor 15:51KJV (Not all shall die and sleep in the grave)
1 Thess 4:14KJV (Jesus slept in God three days dead in a grave)

The sleep is simply figurative language for the expectant dead in Christ awaiting resurrection.

Insight.

n2thelight said:

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot.

http://www.theseason...ess/1thess4.htm

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May I correct you in saying the breath goes from the body...like all animals - Eccl 3:19

Insight

I don't feel that Christ was dead,per I Peter 3:19..Ive seen your take on the verse,I don't agree with it.....

Don't get me wrong,Im not saying He didn't die on the cross.....

Duckybill said:

You don't like to but you do it anyway?

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You asked me, I was simply granting your request.

If you are right then our English Bibles are trash. Forever, everlasting, eternal, unquenchable... Really Jiggy.

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No I wound't say trash, but concerning this topic, inconsistent. Their interpretations are very contradictory to other scriptures within the same translation. But there are three of "our" English bibles that got this part right.

If "olam" means forever than Jonah is still in the fish's belly and the old covenant is still binding.

n2thelight said:

I don't feel that Christ was dead,per I Peter 3:19..Ive seen your take on the verse,I don't agree with it.....

Don't get me wrong,Im not saying He didn't die on the cross.....

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n2thelight,

I am grateful you even considered "my take", which I believe is God's take on this truth. Just in case I failed to explain this well enough last time...

The orthodox view teaches the doctrine of a second chance, and that Jesus went to hell that he might there preach to those imprisoned, and perhaps save them even at that late stage.

If we (together) sat down around a camp fire and went through all the Scriptures I believe you would recant your above thoughts, in that the Bible is silent to such teaching.

This is contrary to Bible teaching (if you see Isa 38:18). For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isaiah 38:18YLT)

No doubt you would teach elsewhere that the day of salvation is NOW (as per 2 Cor 6:2) and I think if you studied the Lords teachings you would agree wholeheartedly. Christ's work of preaching ceased at death (John 9:4; 17:4) by which death "he lead captivity captive" See Eph. 4:8; Luke 4:18,19; Isa. 42:6.

So why refer to men as 'spirits" imprisoned?

In my studies "spirit" relates to the sentient element in man by which he perceives, reflects, feels and desires See Mk 2:8; Luke 1:47-80; Acts 17:16; 2 Cor 7:1). "Spirit" is also used as a synonym for teaching, and is identified with those who proclaim such teaching (See 1 John 4:1-2). The Lord preached to "spirits in prison"; He appealed to the thinking part, the mind, of man that was imprisoned to sin, limiting his appeal to those who were capable of responding to it.

To prove this you will see the connecting word "which" in 1 Peter 3:20KJV, because the subject is the "spirits in prison" to sin and death. God, through His spirit strove with these at all times, using Noah in Gen. 6:3 as an example, also the prophets Neh 9:30), and later Christ in Heb 1:1,2) in His endeavours to deliver them.

Rotherham renders this: "(Spirits) unyielding at one time." Peter is not teaching that Christ preached to these unyielding spirits of Noah's day, but rather that Noah's days were typical of Christ's (see Luke 17:25,26), and even as the people were unyielding at the time of the flood to the warning voice of Noah (2 Pet 2:5), so they were also at the first advent of the Lord.

In the Masters Service

Insight

Hi Jiggy,

You have been our overseer for most, if not all of the day.

A quiet thank you is in order.

Insight

p.s you might like to clean out your personal inbox it is not accepting pm's.

Thanks Insight, especially for the heads up on the full mail box.

jiggyfly said:

You asked me, I was simply granting your request.

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And I could say that you are going to Hell for eternity, but that would probably be a violation here, don't you think?

No I wound't say trash, but concerning this topic, inconsistent. Their interpretations are very contradictory to other scriptures within the same translation. But there are three of "our" English bibles that got this part right.

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So you choose the 10% of our English Bibles that are unclear about this rather than the 90% that are perfectly clear that Hell is real and eternal.

If "olam" means forever than Jonah is still in the fish's belly and the old covenant is still binding.

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That is REACHING to be kind.

Duckybill said:

And I could say that you are going to Hell for eternity, but that would probably be a violation here, don't you think?

So you choose the 10% of our English Bibles that are unclear about this rather than the 90% that are perfectly clear that Hell is real and eternal.

That is REACHING to be kind.

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Unclear??? How do you see them as unclear?

Reaching???Tis exactly what your favorite bible translation says.

jiggyfly said:

Unclear??? How do you see them as unclear?

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In comparison to the 90% they are unclear, as in neutral.

Reaching???Tis exactly what your favorite bible translation says.

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Since you didn't provide any quote...

n2thelight said:

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot.

http://www.theseason...ess/1thess4.htm

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And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccl 12:7

What did God give the body to give it life?

You believe man is animated dust? Gen 2:7; 3:19; Psa 103:14; Job 10:9; Ecc 3:18,19,20,21.

N2thelight,

In your conclusion to post #427 there appears to be a major flaw in this type of reasoning.

If, as you say, we return to God in some form of spiritual essence, post death (as many interpret
Eccl 12:7), how is it that death is spoken of an example of vanity, futility and meaninglessness? Would it not be taught as the most beautiful of all experiences


Insight

p.s are we still around the camp fire?

veteran said:

Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

Never mind the hell denier's disregard for written Bible scripture about hell as a real place. Who would most want someone to deny the existence of Satan and the abode of hell, and what for?

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It most likely stems from those who are hungry for truth searching the scriptures only to find that mainstream Christianity has lied to them for centuries.

Duckybill said:

In comparison to the 90% they are unclear, as in neutral.

Since you didn't provide any quote...

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Ahhh yes, your comparing everything to your religious paradigm concerning unending torment and if it doesn't agree then it is simply wrong or unclear.

Your translations state the the old covenant is everlasting and that Jonah is in the fish's belly forever. Surely you don't deny that it is a mistake do you?

us2are1 said:

It most likely stems from those who are hungry for truth searching the scriptures only to find that mainstream Christianity has lied to them for centuries.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

I would say the deception has been longer than centuries - 1686 years.