The Rapture Of The Church

So like you believe that Grabiel is only allowed to blow his Trumpet only 7 times. How do you know that he hasn't blown it before? You don't! I'm sure that there are a lot of things that we don't know!

God has foretold us all thingsSo you chose to base your salvation on some made up trumpet that may or may not have sounded I ask what kind of doctrine is that?. I'll tell you its more of Mens doctrine not Gods word. God tells us exactly how many trumpet there are so we can no the signs and the seasons for you to cause confusion and muddy the waters with this speculation simply to make Gods word fit Mens lies.

You are so right Denver I cant believe sometimes the extent men will go to convince themselves and others of this "Rapture" we are going to fly away doctrine. When you think back over the past couple years and all the people that come on here spouting Rapture, Fly away, doctrine not one can prove it is in Gods word. They have claimed all kinds of made up doctrines.They absolutely refuse to believe God word even when you show clearly that God,not only never teaches us this in Ez. 13:20 He specifically says he is against this. Yet men do not hear. They will still go with the 1 Thess. errorrather than believe Paul in 2 Thess that the 1st letter was a misunderstanding. It is beyond me why good Christians will not hear God or believe Paul (in 2 Thess) when their very salvation is at stake. And choose to follow the lies of men. I guess we can only conclude it is a sign of the times we are in.

(special1;10987)
I DO BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH MENTIONED IN l OR ll THESSALONIANS 4:13-18. JESUS CHRIST SAID THAT WE WHICH ARE ALIVE SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TO JOIN HIM IN THE CLOUDS. I KNOW HE IS COMING SOON.SPECIAL1DONNA
l and ll second Thess. Does NOT teach this rapture The church in Thessalonians was teaching a false doctrine based on a misunderstanding of Pauls first letter.Paul heard this and wrote a second letter (ll Thess) correcting them telling the church at Thessalonians they were wrong in teaching this. The mistake made by the church of Thessolians (1 thess 4)is very similar to the rapture mistake, they thought Christs return was imminent, and Paul had to correct them(2 Thess) telling them the great falling away caused byThe Man of Lawlessness ( Satan )had to come firstso in essence even though your rapture people use it to prove rapture.l Thess. is better used to prove Christ, coming soon to rapture you is same false doctrine that fooled the Thessolians.The same lie the Thessolianians believed. Requiring Paul to write ll Thess.and you should not make the same mistake. Christ isn't coming any day (as the Thessolians thought) but after the falling away and at last Trump just as he tells us.

Rapture is another gimmicky theology of denominational war.

Believing in a Rapture, or not believng in a rapture, is not a Salvation as you mentioned earlier!We can only be saved by the blood of Jesus!Paul did not teach or say that there would not be a rapture!He was only trying to get them to go overboard with it like many christians do with a lot of things.The way that you guys are trying persuade people to not believe in a rapture sounds more like a doctrine of satan more than what the majority of Solid Christians believe!You guys are straining at a knat and swallowing a camel!

(jodycour;11408)
Believing in a Rapture, or not believng in a rapture, is not a Salvation as you mentioned earlier!We can only be saved by the blood of Jesus!
The teaching basically states that one can wait until after the "rapture" to be saved. This is fictional theology because in comes from "fictional books."
Paul did not teach or say that there would not be a rapture!
Correct! But he did not teach it would be secret or come in two stages.
He was only trying to get them to go overboard with it like many christians do with a lot of things.
Do you mean "not to go overboard?" Because I would happen to think that all of uninformed Christianity has "gone overboard" with this whole rapture non-sense as evidenced by the book and movie sales.Oh, and we can't forget about the video games! Gotta market the rapture just like the secularist do!Can't wait for the "Left Behind" action figures on the saturday morning cartoons!
The way that you guys are trying persuade people to not believe in a rapture sounds more like a doctrine of satan more than what the majority of Solid Christians believe!
You mean by encouraging reading the Bible in context and with a willing spirit to know the truth is the doctrine of satan? You know, it must be a published talking point that when a non-rapturist slams the rapture teaching it is standard proceedure to say they are teaching the "doctrine of demons."I never ever hear this from secret rapture skeptics, only from the pre-mil crowd.
You guys are straining at a knat and swallowing a camel!
I think if you had a clue as to what is was Jesus referred to by this comment you wouldn't have made it.

(jodycour;11408)
Believing in a Rapture, or not believng in a rapture, is not a Salvation as you mentioned earlier!We can only be saved by the blood of Jesus!Paul did not teach or say that there would not be a rapture!He was only trying to get them to go overboard with it like many christians do with a lot of things.The way that you guys are trying persuade people to not believe in a rapture sounds more like a doctrine of satan more than what the majority of Solid Christians believe!You guys are straining at a knat and swallowing a camel!
(Quote)He was only trying to get them to go overboard with it like many christians do with a lot of things.(quote)A riduclous statement Paul was correcting revealing truth to them. Based on what can you draw this conclusion? Nothing ,but what I can only call a total lack of understanding of the word.Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. No paul doesnt say there wont be a gathering back to the Lord he tells you instead when it will happen there must be a falling away firstAFTER THE LAWLESS ONE THAT MAN OF SIN, comes (who do you think this is?) Then after this at the last trumph Christ will gather us back.Even if you dont believe what scripture says and insist on a rapture doctrine for a Minister to state well if he doesnt say there wont be one it could be true is outragous.With that logic we can all pretty much make up our own doctrineThe whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"Paul is again reminding them.II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season].""And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?" The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this. II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."If you as a minister dont think following after Satan as he comes first (6th trump),causing them to worship a false god thus breaking Gods law, (you shall have no other gods before me), allowing your sheep to be fooled by the great delusion that will come, not teaching them that one left working in the field is the saved one, That it is the second death they are in danger of suffering. has anything to do with their salvation then I pray for those who will follow you. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I see that your still straining at a knat!Salvation still only comes through Jesus blood!

(special1;10987)
I DO BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH MENTIONED IN l OR ll THESSALONIANS 4:13-18. JESUS CHRIST SAID THAT WE WHICH ARE ALIVE SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TO JOIN HIM IN THE CLOUDS. I KNOW HE IS COMING SOON.SPECIAL1DONNA
Greetings, special1: I have a question for you. Who are the "we" of 2 Thessalonians 4? Paul is including himself and his contemporaries when he says, "we who are alive and remain at the COMING of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep" (2 Thes. 4:15). Paul is including himself and his contemporaries when he says, "then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (verse 17). This was their comfort! It is no comfort for Paul to say that the Lord was not to come to their rescue and to avenge them for nearly two thousand years! "Therefore comfort one another with these words!" (1 Thes. 4:18). We are not the WE of this passage! Furthermore, did not Jesus tells those of His day that He was coming back in their lifetimes? Note:"YOU (the disciples whom He sent out to the lost sheep of Israel) will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES!" (Mat. 10:23)."There are some standing HERE who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28)."Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the rulers) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64)."THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place (including His coming)" (Mat. 24:34).What is the context of all of these passages? What is the audience relevance? To whom and about whom is Jesus directly speaking?There are approximately twenty YOUs in Matthew 24. Jesus was not addressing us about the things written there. He was addressing His first-century, pre-AD 70 disciples standing right there with Him about things that were to happen in THEIR lifetimes not ours! THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars. THEY were not to be troubled. THEY were to be persecuted, hated, and killed. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. There is much in Scripture that is written FOR us but not TO us. Jesus cannot be coming soon as you expect. He already came!JesusReigns (NOW)

I do have a clue, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, and Saducees that would do just about anything to win over converts to there false teachings, which is the exact same thing that you guys are doing trying to persuade people about your non-rapture theory! I believe that I& II Thesalonians proves more about us being raptured than any of your arguments.

For those that can READ to deny this verse is to call Paul a liar and futher it is to not belive the word of God this is not confusing there is no misinterpting it Paul was correcting the misunderstanding of the Thess. caught up fly away teaching that had crept into the church.By telling them the when the coming of the lord would be. ll Thess.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?How much clearer can God make it for you?????????????????????????

That is an interesting point that I haven't seen before and I will study more into this point but in light of this, what about the 7th verse, who needs to be taken out of the way so that Wicked be revealed?

(jodycour;11753)
That is an interesting point that I haven't seen before and I will study more into this point but in light of this, what about the 7th verse, who needs to be taken out of the way so that Wicked be revealed?
The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9]."Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2. Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language;all languageshave rules that must be adhered to and more importantly so and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth.It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.Jody thank you for taking time to explore and study this matter. May God grant you eyes to see and hears to hear.

But Lucifer was already cast to the earth in Ezekiel 28:11-19Also concerning the fallen angels:II Peter2:4 It say's here that they are in chains in wait for the Judgement.

Also in Ephesians 6:11-12So he is not curently bound because he is presently the prince of the Power of the Air currently waging war on us!

Actually jodycour, Lucifer/Satan, the spirit is on Earth...but Lucifer, the angel/man is in Heaven.Job 1:7 - 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Job 2:2 - And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Job 2:3-6 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahushua) our Lord and Saviour.